A history of our beloved tanks, and moving forward. [5.0 wishlists]

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Originally Posted by TaiyoShikasu

Make DRK even more obviously budget WAR.

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I don't like this mentality of avoiding buffing other jobs just because they will feel similar to the stronger jobs in the game. When DRK's shadow wall CD was reduced to 2 minutes and when DRK gained better burst aggro, it became very similar to WAR but those buffs also made DRK a LOT better. PLD and DRK already suffer a LOT from abilities not synergizing with each other and having buttons that you can't/won't use, on top of clunky stances. WAR suffers from none of these issues but getting rid of the clunk and nonsense doesn't make them like WAR, it makes them better.

I get the issue of homogenization, but DRK won't became WAR just because it's more fluid and busy. Especially since WAR will also evolve overtime.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Lastly, I'd like to see some clearly defined identities for each tank. If DRK's lifesteal comes from in-game lore and series lore, strong self-sustain through lifesteal should be a DRK exclusive trait. Remove WAR's lifesteal entirely, and let them work on a different theme instead. If WAR is about heavy burst and enmity generation, then don't try and clone Inner Release on the other tanks. Do something different. If PLD is about strong party support, then don't be giving every tank Divine Veil. Push the tanks in unique directions without giving them a monopoly on something that will make them mandatory.

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As much as I agree with this. Realistically it will never work. this is kinda how tanks were originally designed. Paladin was all about the defence and mitigation at the expense of offensive capability. warrior was all about offensive brutality at the expense of lower defence and mitigation. and Drk some kind of middle ground. and thats why many times in the games history paladins even at times in 1.2 have been basically lolled at and forgotten.

I would love nothing more than to see jobs actually have identitiy instead of being heavily homogonised in the name of balance. but when a tank doesnt have something another tank does people complain big time. (paladins and gap closers anyone)

its not just tanks its all the roles out there. (can blms get a ressurect because the other 2 casters have one or can samurai get some utility because other jobs have it...) all the jobs are so homogonised there is next to no identity in any of them.

going a step further there are jobs out there that do or did bring individual elements to a party but as a result of homogenization and balance they're all effectively worthless and many were totally removed because they were useless.

Whens the last time a blm ever slept anything. or you fought something could actually be paciified, silenced, heavied or bound in place...

I'd love to see jobs have actual identity and bring something unique to a party but it'll never happen because of homogenization and people being afraid that theyll be left out if they don't have someting every other class has. be it a gap closer, raise or whatever....

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Whens the last time a blm ever slept anything. or you fought something could actually be paciified, silenced, heavied or bound in place...

I'd love to see jobs have actual identity and bring something unique to a party but it'll never happen because of homogenization and people being afraid that theyll be left out if they don't have someting every other class has. be it a gap closer, raise or whatever....

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You don't do these things anymore because players have proven in the past that they will abuse any mechanic given to them. Sleeping for CC is fine. Sleeping to abuse the boss arena lockout is not. Making these necessary also necessitates making the content have bigger numbers, where you -want- to make the big thing stop punching little puny things.

Generally speaking, we lose tools because the ways we found to use the tool were both not intentional, and leads to content being locked out for the jobs who didn't bring them. It's far easier to just remove the tool from consideration than it is to tweak each and every encounter, boss or trash, so that it can't be done. (Thus blanket immunity)

Every dungeon design moving forward that stops ludicrous stuff from happening is the Dev team reacting to the playerbase.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

As much as I agree with this. Realistically it will never work. this is kinda how tanks were originally designed. Paladin was all about the defence and mitigation at the expense of offensive capability. warrior was all about offensive brutality at the expense of lower defence and mitigation. and Drk some kind of middle ground. and thats why many times in the games history paladins even at times in 1.2 have been basically lolled at and forgotten.

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Yess, hello 2.0 WAR, tank with low defense but strong selfheals, how did that worked out? ^__^

It's actually really sad, because 2.0 WAR was more a reactive tank, now we only have proactive tanks, we lost a whole playstyle in 2.1 :\

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Whens the last time a blm ever slept anything.

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Actually I did that in Pagos quite often :O

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Originally Posted by Saeno

I don't like this mentality of avoiding buffing other jobs just because they will feel similar to the stronger jobs in the game. When DRK's shadow wall CD was reduced to 2 minutes and when DRK gained better burst aggro, it became very similar to WAR but those buffs also made DRK a LOT better. PLD and DRK already suffer a LOT from abilities not synergizing with each other and having buttons that you can't/won't use, on top of clunky stances. WAR suffers from none of these issues but getting rid of the clunk and nonsense doesn't make them like WAR, it makes them better.

I get the issue of homogenization, but DRK won't became WAR just because it's more fluid and busy. Especially since WAR will also evolve overtime.

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I'm not saying avoid buffs because that's terrible, but I am saying avoid homogenization. As it stands now and with what you're proposing is making DRK even more like off brand WAR. Flaws within the jobs like stances being clunky or some abilities just being worthless either flat out or only useful in niche scenarios should be corrected.

Lyth talked about identity in their post which is a common complaint about tanks.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Generally speaking, we lose tools because the ways we found to use the tool were both not intentional, and leads to content being locked out for the jobs who didn't bring them. It's far easier to just remove the tool from consideration than it is to tweak each and every encounter, boss or trash, so that it can't be done. (Thus blanket immunity)

Every dungeon design moving forward that stops ludicrous stuff from happening is the Dev team reacting to the playerbase.

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Easier perhaps but not better? even the devs have said players find dungeons boring because rather than find a better solution to suchissues the devs just went the easy / lazy route and went with the blanket immunity. the end result of which is rather than continuously coming up with new and interesting ways of doing things every single dungeon is the exact same... run to the gate & aoe all the things > kill boss. run to second gate & aoe all the things. > kill next boss and repeat. and it never changes. a boss fight is a boss fight is a boss fight. a trash pull is a trash pull is a trash pull....

taking the easier path has pretty much locked the devs out of being creative. and thats why everything is the same. it's why dungeons are the same. its why omega is really no different to alexander. its why a lot of the trials feel samey these days. and hell people even ay the raids aren't raids they're basically trials....

I really wish FFXIV would go the Mythic+ dungeon route like WoW did that way we can use these abilities more that was mentioned before where we can heavy and bind things the stuff that we can CC and give the classes meaning. That way we can have Paladins be more defensive and use their kit, Warriors can bring that extra DPS for the modifiers, Drks hopefully get changed into a tank that can sustain while tanking or DPSing with high mobility I feel all we have to gauge classes is endgame raids and trials, leveling barely lets to experience the class.

Look at Drg it's 1-2-3 until 50 and then it starts to change once you can sustain BoTD or how about Drk not getting TBN until 70? The whole class is built around it but yet you only use it at max level, I feel Mythic dungeons in XIV would greatly benefit not only tanks but other classes as we can use things like CC and have tough trash etc. I really hope with 5.0 we get some serious changes because as it stands a lot of classes need an identity it's not use tanks.

If XIV did do a Mythic+, it'd be like what if Sastasha but with Eureka tier mobs, so not only would it just be Sastasha, but now the trash have sky high HP and damage output on par with raid bosses.

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Originally Posted by TaiyoShikasu

If XIV did do a Mythic+, it'd be like what if Sastasha but with Eureka tier mobs, so not only would it just be Sastasha, but now the trash have sky high HP and damage output on par with raid bosses.

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They could work it out to have modifiers like WoW has some of them are Teeming where threat is harder to get, Earthquake where random AoEs go over peoples heads and you gotta spread, random corrupted mob that hits hard etc, if they just flat out increased mobs hp and did nothing else then that's lazy. Something needs to be done with the endgame to compliment tanks and changes for the future of this game we don't need more Eureka content in this game Pagos is testament to that, what I'm saying is we need an overhaul to endgame dungeons with changes to classes like Drk as a whole as well as War with bringing slashing debuff.

Moves need to be gutted or changed and the tanks need identity to go along with Mythic+ dungeons if it were to work, not to mention they could add the pomander system in from PotD/HoH to give it a unique feel.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Easier perhaps but not better? even the devs have said players find dungeons boring because rather than find a better solution to suchissues the devs just went the easy / lazy route and went with the blanket immunity. the end result of which is rather than continuously coming up with new and interesting ways of doing things every single dungeon is the exact same... run to the gate & aoe all the things > kill boss. run to second gate & aoe all the things. > kill next boss and repeat. and it never changes. a boss fight is a boss fight is a boss fight. a trash pull is a trash pull is a trash pull....

taking the easier path has pretty much locked the devs out of being creative. and thats why everything is the same. it's why dungeons are the same. its why omega is really no different to alexander. its why a lot of the trials feel samey these days. and hell people even ay the raids aren't raids they're basically trials....

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That's trash in MMOs. You bring them together and aoe them. Bosses generally only have a couple mechanics that differ between them. That's not just FF14. That's been WoW, that's been SWToR, that's been WAR, and it's even been the more action oriented ones like Tera, Blade and Soul, and BDO.

There are two methods of achieving balance. The first is to make the two jobs in question identical. The second is to make them sufficiently different such that many of the abilities are not direct analogues. There is a sort of uncanny valley in the middle where players perceive two jobs to be identical except for some slight differences. Those differences then become deciding factors in which job you pick. If WHM is an 'AST without cards', why play WHM? If DRK is a 'budget WAR', why play DRK?

That's why you can't partially homogenise jobs. People look at abilities and recognise analogues. Shadow Wall is obviously Vengeance, when you put the two side by side. So when you make one obviously weaker than the other without an upside, then people fixate on that.

That's not to say that homogenisation is the answer, either. The point of having several tanking jobs is to provide diverse playstyle experiences, so that there's something to cater to everyone.

There will always be a set of core functions that every tank should be able to do. These, for the most part, should be as similar as possible. I'd like to think that this was the intention behind the role action system, although its execution left something to be desired. But outside of these core functions, the tanks should be as different as possible, so that there's relatively little basis for comparison. This is where you flesh out their identity.

WAR's aesthetic involves big, powerful hits that happen in bursts of rage. This is not a PLD or DRK aesthetic. So when you introduce 'Fell Cleave' equivalents on these jobs, they're going to be necessarily inferior. Bloodspiller and Holy Spirit will never be allowed to reach the same potency values.

So rather than trying to compete with Fell Cleave (let's face it, with the way that Holy Spirit has been nerfed every second patch, it might as well be in competition with Shield Lob next expansion), why not take these abilities in a new direction? Perhaps change Requiescat into a ranged attack so that your burst window can also start while at range. Perhaps change Holy Spirit so that it offers some kind of benefit to nearby teammates (healing, etc.) when it happens.

Bloodspiller could also benefit from this kind of thinking. While Bloodspiller hits reasonably hard, DRK doesn't really have much in the way of personal damage buffs to take advantage of that potency. But again, why try to compete with IR-powered Fell Cleave when you can play to your own strengths? What if Bloodspiller stole a bit of HP and MP from your opponent when you used it? If you dropped down both its cost and the blood gained from TBN by an equivalent amount, you'd have natural Bloodspillers more often. Perhaps its role then would be more of a blood gated 4th combo action, rather than something that you stockpile for an entirely teammate dependent "burst" window.

People will always try to pick what is optimum. Anyone can compare potencies or durations and math out which is better. But the more complex and abstract the points of comparison become, the less certain people become about those choices, and the more debate happens over which is best. That's why I want to see design decisions driven by a clear sense of what each tank's identity is.

So the Pld with the shield should be the ultimate defence tank that should be able to take on the boss with only 1 healer.... that's not the case right now

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Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

So the Pld with the shield should be the ultimate defence tank that should be able to take on the boss with only 1 healer.... that's not the case right now

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this is a duty finder problem more than anything. and the fact content is all fixed on a 2 2 4 formation. if you had plds with defence so strong they only needed 1 powerfull healer. but there offence was rubbish then a df group that had 2 paladins would be in some trouble.

you could expand it by saying if whms were so powerfull 1 could heal a whole party where ast/sch couldnt. then a df group with 2 whms also has issues. anda df with 2 plds and 2 whms is going to have a massively reduced offensive capability...

for such a thing to work you would need to basically scrap the duty finder and rely on players to build there own parties. so a party with a paladin tank or whm could effectively roll a 5th dps or a party with both could effectively roll 6 dps slots.. where a party with a warrior tank might need either a second tank to swap with or a second healer to help keep em up.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

There are two methods of achieving balance. The first is to make the two jobs in question identical. The second is to make them sufficiently different such that many of the abilities are not direct analogues.

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There's actually a third and that is create a diverse and varied enviroment in which to play. this is generally the approach a lot of games tend to take especially in things like first person shooters where balancing weapons can be incredibly difficult. what they do is utilise the enviroment instead. so you will have sections of a map where long range snipers might be advantageous. and sections of the same map where closer ranged weapons have the advantage.

racing games do a similar thing with well designed tracks. sure there's long striaghts where the faster cars will naturally excel but then there's often windy bits full of corners and stuff where the slower cars with better grip and handling can take the lead.

these things make it particularly difficult to define a best anything because diverse enviroments mean the best is contiuously changing. even on the same map orsame track or same level or whatever..

In XIV from what i gather this is a common complaint in PVP the enviroments are all wide open pretty much and nearly always give ranged players the advantage over melee.

another issue in XIV is every mobis essentially the same. the only difference really is there HP pool. a blm casting fire 4 on a level 1 mob is going to do pretty much the exact same damage as it would on a level 70 boss.. there's really no variety in the monsters of the world. you don't have mobs that are heavily armoured but not evasivve. or mobs that are lightly amrmored but agile a s hell. or mobs that are resistant to slashing but weak to piercing or resistant to physical but weak to magic... the enviroment in XIV never changes. which is bad for balance and diversity

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Originally Posted by Dzian

this is a duty finder problem more than anything. and the fact content is all fixed on a 2 2 4 formation. if you had plds with defence so strong they only needed 1 powerfull healer. but there offence was rubbish then a df group that had 2 paladins would be in some trouble.

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Not necessarily. PLD could have an ability that stack more and more defense when needed (And stack less an less personal DPS...).
Long time ago, I called this Divine Calling, a stackable skill that costs a lot of MP, that add -10% damage dealt/reduce to Shield Oath for each stack, while increasing the enmity bonus. With each cast, the duration would be reduced (30s for the first stack, 25 for second, 20 for third, etc...) to the point that you'd have to let it fall off. Since then, we received the Oath Gauge, so it could be used for that kind of skill.

In a 2 2 4 random setup, they will keep their only slighty better defence and their slighty lower DPS output. Optimization is not that big of a problem for content you can safely tackle with PUG anyway. And yet, even if this setup, the second healer should be able to spend more time DPSing than wth other tanks.

My Tank Wishlist for 5.0: (edit: numbers definitely not final)

Edit: Yeah, ok, these ideas are half-baked at best... I guess I'd just like to see an end to the need for Tank stances, a return of Emnity combos being useful, more synergy and overall defence in PLDs kit, WAR as more than just a 90s I WIN button, and DRK to be less spammy and more impactful with Dark Arts.

PLD - The basic defensive tank
- Removal of Sword Oath and Shield Oath (they are clunky, passive and really shouldn't need to exist)
- Savage Blade potency increased to 260 (so more than Riot Blade) and can now combo to both Rage of Halone and Royal Authority
- Rage of Halone, increased enmity (to match previous Shield Oath enmity) and grants the PLD 10% less damage taken for 16s
- Riot Blade, can now combo to both Rage of Halone and Royal Authority
- Goring Blade removed (DoT is now applied by Spirits Within)
- Spirits Within now causes damage over time (60 potency for 21s) and no longer does reduced damage with lower HP
- Rampart is now PLD exclusive
- Sentinal cooldown reduced to 120s
- Bulwark cooldown reduced to 60s
- Sheltron returned to being a cooldown (30s, or 5s in Bulwark)
- Intervention is now a cooldown (20s)
- Tempered Will cooldown reduced to 60s
- Total Eclipse now extends the duration of Blind on targets hit by 4s to a maximum of 12s
- Circle of Scorn now does double damage (initial hit only) to Blind targets
- Holy Spirit now does AoE damage at 150 potency (still 380 on main target)
- Divine Veil no longer requires healing to trigger, cooldown reduced to 90s
- Hallowed Ground cooldown reduced to 300s
- No longer has access to Anticipation or Reprisal

WAR - The stance dance tank
- See 3.X WAR, or at least give them a rotation back :/
- No longer has access to Rampart, Anticipation or Reprisal

DRK - The absorb / counter tank
- Grit removed (again, clunky, passive, shouldn't need to exist)
- Dark Arts no longer affects potencies of normal weapon skills
- Spinning Slash / Power Slash is now the high potency combo
- Syphon Strike / Soul Eater is now the 'recovery / sustain' combo
- Soul Eater absorbs a portion of damage dealt as HP, Darks Arts absorbs full damage dealt as HP
- Power Slash, Dark Arts increases enmity (to previous Grit + Dark Arts level)
- Unmend, Dark Arts now grants the DRK 10% less damage taken for 12s, removed chance for Unleash to cost no MP
- Plunge range extended to 20y and now causes your next Unleash to cost no MP
- Living Dead cooldown reduced to 180s, Walking Dead now removed at 50% HP
- Reprisal is now DRK exclusive as per 3.X version
- Anticipation is now DRK exclusive as per 3.X version
- DRK can now parry magic attacks
- Shadow Wall cooldown reduced to 90s, reduces damage taken by 25%, Dark Arts reduces damage taken by 40% and increases duration to 15s
- Dark Mind, reduced magic damage mitigation to 20%, now makes the DRK immune to knockback and draw-in effects, heavy, bind, and slow.
- Dark Passenger, Dark Arts causes affected enemies to heal their targets for a portion of damage dealt for 10s (i.e. Enemy-A does 1000 damage to Player-B, Player-B is healed for 100 damage).
- No longer has access to Rampart

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Originally Posted by Acidblood

My Tank Wishlist for 5.0: (numbers not necessarily final)

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This is more of a tank death wish then anything

Make Paladins kings of group mitigation and utility, Warriors kings of raw damage, and Dark Knights kings of self-support. Prune and add abilities as necessary to keep to the theme for each. Paladin seems alright as-is; Warrior should lose their group shield and see a nerf to Holmgang; Dark Knight needs more lifesteal, a better version of Living Dead that is at least as good as Holmgang is now, and for the love of god do something about Dark Arts spam. Make it automatically activate at the end of every combo/every other Unleash (finally giving us something to use it for after unlocking Abyssal Drain), and give you 2-3 procs before it fades.

Next tank can be kings of... I dunno, buffs and debuffs? Could be an interesting alternative method of damage mitigation.

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Originally Posted by ShinShimon

Make Paladins kings of group mitigation and utility, Warriors kings of raw damage, and Dark Knights kings of self-support. Prune and add abilities as necessary to keep to the theme for each. Paladin seems alright as-is; Warrior should lose their group shield and see a nerf to Holmgang; Dark Knight needs more lifesteal, a better version of Living Dead that is at least as good as Holmgang is now, and for the love of god do something about Dark Arts spam. Make it automatically activate at the end of every combo/every other Unleash (finally giving us something to use it for after unlocking Abyssal Drain), and give you 2-3 procs before it fades.

Next tank can be kings of... I dunno, buffs and debuffs? Could be an interesting alternative method of damage mitigation.

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Agree with a lot of this. Not entirely sure of WAR losing Shake AND a holmgang nerf but yes these two skills are ridiculously strong.

adding another idea
IF paladin does get a AOE that uses MP
it be nice if Bulwark would restore MP on block kinda giving that skill more of a purpose

and the skill Thrill of War is something id like to see on pve war
'Restores HP of self and nearby party members by 20% of maximum HP."

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Originally Posted by ShinShimon

Next tank can be kings of... I dunno, buffs and debuffs? Could be an interesting alternative method of damage mitigation.

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I think debuffs would be a cool thing probably if it only worked on said tank or it just turns into HW Drk where stuff like monks debuffs really dont mean much when there was Drk
id personally like a Tank that has a constant offensive style that you have to keep up like Astral Fire,Ninjas huton,blood of the dragoon etc etc
its something i kinda wanted Dark knights Dark arts to become

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Originally Posted by Acidblood

DRK - The absorb / counter tank
- Grit removed (again, clunky, passive, shouldn't need to exist)
- Dark Arts no longer affects potencies of normal weapon skills
- Spinning Slash / Power Slash is now the high potency combo
- Syphon Strike / Soul Eater is now the 'recovery / sustain' combo
- Soul Eater absorbs a portion of damage dealt as HP, Darks Arts absorbs full damage dealt as HP
- Power Slash, Dark Arts increases enmity (to previous Grit + Dark Arts level)
- Unmend, Dark Arts now grants the DRK 10% less damage taken for 12s, removed chance for Unleash to cost no MP
- Plunge range extended to 20y and now causes your next Unleash to cost no MP
- Living Dead cooldown reduced to 180s, Walking Dead now removed at 50% HP
- Reprisal is now DRK exclusive as per 3.X version
- Anticipation is now DRK exclusive as per 3.X version
- DRK can now parry magic attacks
- Shadow Wall cooldown reduced to 90s, reduces damage taken by 25%, Dark Arts reduces damage taken by 40% and increases duration to 15s
- Dark Mind, reduced magic damage mitigation to 20%, now makes the DRK immune to knockback and draw-in effects, heavy, bind, and slow.
- Dark Passenger, Dark Arts causes affected enemies to heal their targets for a portion of damage dealt for 10s (i.e. Enemy-A does 1000 damage to Player-B, Player-B is healed for 100 damage).
- No longer has access to Rampart

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Wow... this is just bad...

You removed Grit, Rampart and nerfed Dark Mind, so the whole defense is now centered on TBN, Shadow Wall, weak Reprisal, an RNG chance to parry with Anticipation and Dark Arts Unmend wtf?

Enmity combo does now the most damage? So we when playing OT you pull aggro off the MT? Awesome.

Dark Arts spam removed without a replacement? So you removed the whole resource management from a job whose main mechanic is resource management?

Really, you stripped DRK even more. Defense wise, gameplay wise and identity wise.