Treading Dangerous Ground

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Originally Posted by KumaAkuma

If you passed the advanced math class you would have known you can't compare apples and oranges.

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Much like you learn you can't ignore certain factors either.

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Originally Posted by ChiefCurrahee

You're not looking at the big picture. In order for the game to have enjoyable lasting content, fundamental aspects such as combat, armory and UI changes had to be made first. They could have put in all the content under the sun in the launch version of XIV, but it would have been ruined by the crap UI, the crap battle system and the convoluted armory system.

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If anyone wants to argue against this, you can also take it up with Yoshi cause he said it himself:

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...98e4034b898102

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Originally Posted by Yoshi P

The issue that players would first like to see addressed is a general lack of game content, followed by changes to the battle system. Looking further, it seems that the type of content most strongly desired is quests and miniquests, accounting for about 40% of the responses. The auction house has also made a solid showing among the responses, no doubt due in part to the fact that, as previously mentioned, many of the pollees are or were FFXI players. My initial reaction was to interpret this as players stating that they want more adventures in Eorzea! More gil and loot!

In line with this, I believe that significant changes to the battle system are necessary to create a style of combat that lends itself to the enjoyment of quests and miniquests. Following that logic one step further, it is equally necessary to bring about significant changes to the user interface to create a UI that lends itself to the enjoyment of the battle system. After all, there is no point in making thorough improvements to battle if the response and usability of the interface isn't capable of conveying those improvements to players.

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Originally Posted by ChiefCurrahee

You're not looking at the big picture. In order for the game to have enjoyable lasting content, fundamental aspects such as combat, armory and UI changes had to be made first. They could have put in all the content under the sun in the launch version of XIV, but it would have been ruined by the crap UI, the crap battle system and the convoluted armory system.

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the point is they were trying to say that the majority voted for one thing when using their own numbers showed their statement was incorrect. i didn't say they were doing things wrong by doing the changes the order they are doing them. i pointed out their statement was wrong and they did not go strictly by the poll results nor should they.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Much like you learn you can't ignore certain factors either.

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yes, the factors were they voted for overhaul over either releasing things faster or talking more. that's not much of a choice. once they were compared side by side with content the majority voted there. yoshi even admits himself people voted for that first, but was unable to do that. it was not a bad decision on his part to fix the game first, but don't act like the poll was followed by the numbers completely because they were not.

as i already stated i am not saying they are wrong by going in the order they are doing things. i just stated they shouldn't have followed the numbers myself, but i'm not trying to pretend they are. they have reasons for not doing it, but then don't turn around and act like they are.

I agree 100% with OP. Yes, the problem is not the fact they're considering the change, it's how and why. A server merge is a big deal in any MMO, and affects a lot of people. But it seems they're trying to please the "vocal minority" this time around.

And before anyone says "everyone hated option 4", here's a little thing:

Why does Yoshida hate linkshells/communities? [25 likes to OP]

Thanks for ruining the only experience that keeps me playing. [37 likes to OP]

Petition to reveal Server names before transferring! [46 likes to OP]

Thread: A history in server merging - Why SE is creating an overcomplicated mess. [42 likes to OP]

So, in 4 different threads that basically are talking about the same thing, we get no more than 50 likes in the OP. Last time I checked on my server alone (Wutai), I can find at least 200-300 people at any given time.

Now, I know that the number of likes does not give a real indicator of how many people agree with the thread/idea, but it still shows that only a handful of people decided it was worth it's time to do a simple click on the OP.

Whatever SE does with the merges, I'll stay. But I am paying for a game developed by SE, not a community project.

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Originally Posted by Kaizlu

I agree 100% with OP. Yes, the problem is not the fact they're considering the change, it's how and why. A server merge is a big deal in any MMO, and affects a lot of people. But it seems they're trying to please the "vocal minority" this time around.

And before anyone says "everyone hated option 4", here's a little thing:

Why does Yoshida hate linkshells/communities? [25 likes to OP]

Thanks for ruining the only experience that keeps me playing. [37 likes to OP]

Petition to reveal Server names before transferring! [46 likes to OP]

Thread: A history in server merging - Why SE is creating an overcomplicated mess. [42 likes to OP]

So, in 4 different threads that basically are talking about the same thing, we get no more than 50 likes in the OP. Last time I checked on my server alone (Wutai), I can find at least 200-300 people at any given time.

Now, I know that the number of likes does not give a real indicator of how many people agree with the thread/idea, but it still shows that only a handful of people decided it was worth it's time to do a simple click on the OP.

Whatever SE does with the merges, I'll stay. But I am paying for a game developed by SE, not a community project.

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The only thing those numbers proof is that some posters out there liked that Op's post. You can't use those numbers to proof opposite statements. And you can't even be talking about a vocal minority because you have no data to support this.

You know, there is another thing about the merge that many are not even bringing up. The fact that option 4 was gone with so that it is easier on the development team and NOT the players. That is where the outrage lies.

It partly doesn't even matter who is doing the speaking for the community as primarily we're just calling the development team out on their s#!%. Sorry, we're paying customers now. They have to start working a little more on customer service and they have now after the global backlash and we got what we wanted.

OP is right, this is a dangerous precedent. Polling data is needed, period.

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Originally Posted by Kaizlu

I agree 100% with OP. Yes, the problem is not the fact they're considering the change, it's how and why. A server merge is a big deal in any MMO, and affects a lot of people. But it seems they're trying to please the "vocal minority" this time around.

And before anyone says "everyone hated option 4", here's a little thing:

Why does Yoshida hate linkshells/communities? [25 likes to OP]

Thanks for ruining the only experience that keeps me playing. [37 likes to OP]

Petition to reveal Server names before transferring! [46 likes to OP]

Thread: A history in server merging - Why SE is creating an overcomplicated mess. [42 likes to OP]

So, in 4 different threads that basically are talking about the same thing, we get no more than 50 likes in the OP. Last time I checked on my server alone (Wutai), I can find at least 200-300 people at any given time.

Now, I know that the number of likes does not give a real indicator of how many people agree with the thread/idea, but it still shows that only a handful of people decided it was worth it's time to do a simple click on the OP.

Whatever SE does with the merges, I'll stay. But I am paying for a game developed by SE, not a community project.

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I couldn't agree more.

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Originally Posted by Kaizlu

Whatever SE does with the merges, I'll stay. But I am paying for a game developed by SE, not a community project.

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Pretty much this. Player input is always needed at some points, but when you shape an entire development process around the fans, well...

http://i.imgur.com/W2haG.jpg

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Originally Posted by Impulse

Pretty much this. Player input is always needed at some points, but when you shape an entire development process around the fans, well...

http://i.imgur.com/W2haG.jpg

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Bad example actually, this was because Capcom pussied out thinking no one cares for Megaman (let alone Legends) and that even though he was outside of the company he wouldn't dedicate to it.

(He actually stated he was dedicated.)

Ontop of that, they think we want the same RE for the 70th time lol.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

yes, we may disagree alot, but we both handle it like adults and don't do the "don't like it jump off a bridge" when we do disagree. i don't even agree with my wife all the time, but that doesn't make me hate her when we disagree either.

i may have a different opinion than you on many matters, but i never take different views personal. i just thought it was funny we actually saw eye to eye for a change and wanted to point out that monumental occasion lol.

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I just wanted to say thats its good to see people that are on here that disagree, yet still maintain a level of respect and civility with one another. Its such a rare thing on these servers. I have at times fired from the hip with responses based on my immediate reaction instead of stepping back and answering rationally, and every time I have always regretted it later. My thanks to you both for showing the rest how it can be done.

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Originally Posted by Enyyx

The players that care enough will come here to be heard.

It's the same with voters in government elections. Voter turnout may be 20%, but guess who gets to make the decision? The 20% that cared enough to vote.

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My only point of contention with this line of reasoning is this: when you look at the number of people that voted in the first player poll, there were tens of thousands of voter turn outs. There is no way that you could get those numbers from forums even if you combined the official forums AND all the fan sites. This demonstrates that a poll is much more effective at gathering what the majority want. Have you seen how people treat each other on these forums? Is it any suprise that many people don't want anything to do with them? Up until I started following FFXIV, I NEVER blogged on ANY site about anything. I dont even have a facebook account. You have to understand that this form of communication isn't for everyone, and thats ok. A player poll takes much of that out of the equation entirely, which is why you see higher turn outs for polls than you ever will on forums. I agree that only those that participate get a say, but only in terms of official polls by SE. I am sorry, but watching how many people choose to behave on here, (and I admit even I am not always at my best) I dont want these forums being used as a means to determine what I get as a player.

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Originally Posted by Kaizlu

I agree 100% with OP. Yes, the problem is not the fact they're considering the change, it's how and why. A server merge is a big deal in any MMO, and affects a lot of people. But it seems they're trying to please the "vocal minority" this time around.
Whatever SE does with the merges, I'll stay. But I am paying for a game developed by SE, not a community project.

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I totally agree with this not being a community project. I would have rather seen One of two things happen. 1, Yoshi step up and be a leader that makes the tough desicions that may be unpopular with some (no matter which choice he went with) and move forward. Or 2, choose to gather info on what the players want and make a desicion from there, but in a way that has everyone participating, including those that dont like the forums. I certainly dont envy the position the man has put himself in now.

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Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

It partly doesn't even matter who is doing the speaking for the community as primarily we're just calling the development team out on their s#!%. Sorry, we're paying customers now. They have to start working a little more on customer service and they have now after the global backlash and we got what we wanted.

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I have been saying for months that it seems like, at times, the devs seem more concerned with trying to please "potential" customers vs. trying to please the customers that are loyal and are now (and often always HAVE) been playing and now paying. The fact that we have ALL been asking for better linkshell tools since day 2 of release, but have been ignored demonstrates my point on this.

Yeah i was also sad to see yoshi be broken like that, he should make a decision and stick to it and not cave in to the forum whiners.

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Originally Posted by Kyra

Yeah i was also sad to see yoshi be broken like that, he should make a decision and stick to it and not cave in to the forum whiners.

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umm... that sounds dangerous.

I think what Yoshi-P did so far is correct. Saying something like "we respect your opinions for #2 but we'll think more about it. However, the current option is still #4."

why Obama should listen to normal people's whining about economics? To him and rich people, US economics is good. you can get fired while getting 100 mils?
But should government listen to these pop singers whining about their copy rights so the unreasonable-rich singers need to wait a few more weeks longer to get the money to build a golden swimming pool?
sadly, government should listen. that's just how democratic system works. Even if the minority opinion win the policy, there is nothing the majority side can complain about. You didn't step out and voice your opinion, you are the minority option. (Doesn't matter you don't even know Nov 6th, 2012 is presidential election or no one tells you how to vote.) As long as the poll is fair tho...

[the following just theories...] /talk to self.
should think this over again tho... how can random people come to this forum are majority voice of one side? Maybe they are really the majority opinions...
unless minority side full with angry papas that gang up and said let's wash the board with lots lots posts... and you know most people honestly doesn't care (grey voters) until they see angry papas', so they become angry too. [/theory] ^^:

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Originally Posted by Biggs

Here is the only problem I see with that. It has been said by Yoshi P. himself that Westerners are notorious for only responding when something doesnt make them happy, yet when they are pleased they tend to only check the thumbs up or not respond at all. So if the people that responded about this particular issue on the North American forums are your sample, its a very biased sample.

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Yeah. I agree with this. Not only that, but the same people complain over and over again, so it ends up being really biased. I am for option four. But I don't go around making front page posts about my agreement. Maybe I should >.>;

Blizzard listened to the whiners and look at WoW now. Stripped of depth and meaningful content. They tried to cover it up with some slightly harder dungeons, but in the QQers got that nerfed too within months.

Cataclysm hasn't posted a single positive quarter to date. Players are typically selfish and cannot relate to the larger picture. They only want the cheese without doing the maze. I know better, though. That's why I believe Yoshi should do what he thinks is best, because thats what good leaders do.

MOST of the community were "OPEN TO MAJOR CHANGES" along time ago, which there still working on.

Maybe SE should conduct another player poll about this issue, and send out emails about it to get non-forum using players to participate... Or post it to the log in page for the game, that might get people's attentions..

People are complaining that he listened to us? Most of us went back to our respective linkshells talked about the issue and came back with more opinions from them, most of my friends in the game felt negatively about this. If most linkshells on the most populated servers felt negatively about this, you would have to believe that's at least a significant portion of the population. Option 2 + option 4 is honestly the best of both worlds, giving people who wanted a new start the ability to have one, and people who want to merge with existing communites the ability to do that also.

Yoshi is reconcidering the server merge options because this is a community issue. Not a game play issue. There is nothing wrong with Yoshi stopping and listening to the community on this. Even if it's to vocal minority. It doesn't effect the state of the game from a fundamental aspect.

So by listening to the players on this matter isn't treading on dangerous ground.

If the dev team presented plans for new gameplay systems then retracted those plans because the vocal minority made a stink then yes, the dev team has lost thier backbone.

While the OP has a valid concern if this sets a new trend of Yoshi caving at every QQ that is made on the forums. But on the topic of server merege, You're making a big deal out of something that isn't that big of a deal.

aka much ado about nothing.

In the end, a vocal minority will win over an indifferent majority.

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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

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Now "evil" in this sense is rhetorically inconsequential but the concept remains. Something occurred, people voiced their opinion, those who did not voice their opinion were not heard. No action was taken for those who did not voice their opinion.

I see nothing wrong with this.

In this particular case, you had people voicing the opinion of people who couldn't voice their opinion (sickness, military training, non subscribers, those holding off for 2.0 etc.). Yoshida hasn't actually done anything yet. He did apologize for not being more transparent. Then he fixed that issue by being transparent and showing the options that the development team was kicking around.

I see nothing wrong with this.

If the indifferent majority just wants to be like cattle then they'll be herded like cattle. If the vocal minority is making illogical claims then they should be dealt with accordingly. Transparency is one of Yoshida's strong suits and I felt it was in good form to see him take the reins and explain the situation, personally. He was also justified in asking for constructive feedback as I feel the rhetoric that was being spewed was repugnant and childishly over exaggerated.

I see nothing wrong with this.

In the end, he was responding to people (regardless of their tone) who cared enough to provide feedback. I can't fault him for that and I applaud it. I don't necessarily feel that what's right is always what's popular but I do feel that it's always the right time to do the right thing. Being more transparent in this particular case, was the right thing. Changing his opinion in a "six one way half a dozen the other" scenario to better fit the fanbase that's dedicated enough to voice their opinion would also be the right thing.

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Originally Posted by Biggs

Greatings Forum readers and devs! While I am aware that there are more than SEVERAL posts right now that deal with the current World Merger, I would like to start by saying that, while I will site that as an example, the purpose of this post is to discuss the use of these forums as a means to change the game as a whole, and why I believe that to be a mistake.

After posting the direction Yoshi had chosen to do the world merger, the forums lit up with people flaming the way it was to be done. Every individual that plays this game and pays a fee is TOTALLY entitled to their opinion, and no one should be able to say otherwise. That being said, I was very dismayed to see that the very next day, Yoshi made a post that hinted at flip flopping on using option 4 because it "appeared" that most people liked option 2. I am more than willing to acknowledge that a majority really would like option 2, however, using these forums as the SOLE basis to make a decision like that sets a very dangerous precedent. These forums and the people on them represent a VERY small percentage of the actual player base. So essentially, according to the statements made in his post, Yoshi will be using 5% (a fictional number since I actually don't have any numbers to go off of) of the player base to make a decision that effects the OTHER 95% percent of us.

I feel that the fair way to make large decisions that effect the entire community as whole when asking for input is to use the player polls they have used in the past, and only those polls. These polls don't require you to be a member of any particular guild or forum, the only requirement is that you are a paying customer of their product. The polls have you check from a selection of options that COMPLETELY take emotion out of the equation. While I know that the dev team hopes to conduct a merge by march, and that, regardless of anything we say, they may be moving forward with that, I can only hope that in the future, when making decisions that affect the entire community, they use a fair and neutral tool to do so. It was my understanding that the direction the game is heading now is a direct reflection of the polls that have already been taken, and I can only hope that they will continue to shape the game in this method. While I certainly agree that these forums are a great tool to recieve and answer questions and concerns of the community, they should never be used to make large scale decisions that affect a much larger portion of the player base.

I would like to take the time to thank anyone that has read this lengthy post, and once again, I would like to thank the dev team for putting all of their heart and soul into making this the game we all want it to be. (Especially since it seems to be effecting some of their health in a very negative matter. That, more than anything, shows me how hard they must be working to turn this game around.)

Thanks again,
Biggs

Edit- The post I am citing by Yoshi P can be found on page 16 of this thread:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...004#post549004

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If 5% care about the game as to check the forums, do be it. I'm sorry, but if you don't read and post here, you can't be considered as factor. More non factor. Probably could care less where you go. IMO more like 50% and not 5% are ative on the forums. Where did you get your % from?

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Originally Posted by Zetsumei_Tsunarashi

I agree there should have been a poll on the matter.

At least then it won't look like a mistake on the developers' part, they just did what the players wanted.

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Because people on the forum tend to agree and not be split 50/50 on every issue

Case and Point....
When SE changed all of the spells to use much more MP... an impromptu poll was set up on the forum and it was dead even, with hundreds of players chiming in, as to whether it was a good or bad change

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Originally Posted by Resheph

Maybe SE should conduct another player poll about this issue, and send out emails about it to get non-forum using players to participate... Or post it to the log in page for the game, that might get people's attentions..

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I can't help but wonder if, the day he got on here and read all the negative feedback about his plan, he wasnt kicking himself for no having done so then. Like I said though, it is the potential for this sort of trend in desicion making to become more common that concerns me. As to the actual server merger issue itself, I could care less. I am on Kashuan for gods sake, I would have gladly taken ANY of those options and been pleased my server has been a freaking ghost town since last year.

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Originally Posted by ChiefCurrahee

Yoshi is reconcidering the server merge options because this is a community issue. Not a game play issue. There is nothing wrong with Yoshi stopping and listening to the community on this. Even if it's to vocal minority. It doesn't effect the state of the game from a fundamental aspect.

So by listening to the players on this matter isn't treading on dangerous ground.

If the dev team presented plans for new gameplay systems then retracted those plans because the vocal minority made a stink then yes, the dev team has lost thier backbone.

While the OP has a valid concern if this sets a new trend of Yoshi caving at every QQ that is made on the forums. But on the topic of server merege, You're making a big deal out of something that isn't that big of a deal.

aka much ado about nothing.

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Well, when would you like to voice your concern over this sort of trend exactly? Maybe we should wait until they do it again and its to late to stop it over something much more serious next time? I am sorry, but this is an MMO, and to me, player population IS a gameplay issue. This isn't a single player RPG man. I pay a monthly fee to play as part of a community, not sit around Kashuan with only 15 other people talking about the first 2 weeks of the game when we had a few thousand people on our server like it was the good ol days.

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Originally Posted by Noir

If 5% care about the game as to check the forums, so be it. I'm sorry, but if you don't read and post here, you can't be considered as factor. More non factor. Probably could care less where you go. IMO more like 50% and not 5% are ative on the forums. Where did you get your % from?

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I got my percentage from the creative portion of my brain that makes up statistics when none are given to me. I am pretty sure I even say in the OP that that 5% is comepletely fictional because SE doesn't give out any numbers. However, the original player poll showed 10's of thousands of hits, and I can assure you there arent 10's of thousands of people that post on here, and all the other forums combined. In an ideal world, there would be and we could all have a pleasant discourse on the state of the game and discuss ideas we may not see eye-to-eye on without flaming the crap out of each other the way we do on here. But the is reality, and the reality is many people want nothing to do with these forums because either they dont use forums and blogging as a means to communicate, or they dont want to put up with a ton of ass clowns that want to call each other white Knights, trolls, and fanboys ever time they dont agree with a post. They shouldnt be ignored or punished by SE for not wanting to deal with some of the crap on these forums. And while I don't have numbers, I can assure you that 50% of the people that play this game DONT post on here.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

here's another part about polls that are an issue. if you took a poll asking which version of a merge was wanted or even if a merge was wanted then chances are very good that the large servers would have just voted against a merge. looking at these forums leading up til they said they were considering merging servers it was likely 3-1 people opposed to having a merge in the first place.

people on large servers didn't WANT a merge.
people on small servers did NEED a merge.

an overall players poll may have decided the majority didn't want a merge even though some actually do need them to happen. a poll is only as good as the questions are worded. the original poll asked very vague questions and many people, including myself, voted for one thing and have regretted them since.

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I wanted to respond to this post sooner DarkStar, but ended up going out with my family. I think exactly what you have stated here is an excellent example of the pros and cons of both the forums and the polls. I think that having both is necessary, because, as I have said before, the forums provide a place that players can post questions and concerns, but it shouldnt be used to make desicions concerning everyone in the game. So, as an example of what you have stated here, people from lower population servers use the forums to express their displeasure at having no one to play with (which is actually what happened). SE then see's that a portion of the community isnt enjoying the game, and then decides to merge some of the servers or offer a world transfer. Now, the players on the larger servers dont really feel the need for this, but they can see that there ARE players that do. SE then creates a poll that doesnt ask if there should be one (since they have already made that part of the desicion to do it), but instead creates a poll asking how BOTH communities (the underpopulated and those that are populated just fine) would like to go about fixing the issue for those that need it. Its about finding a balance and creating harmony for everyone. I certainly agree with you though that polls are only good if the right questions are asked in them, and I can see how the forums could be used by the devs to formulate those questions. PLus 1 on your post btw. You bring up some really good points. I dont want people to think (and some do) that I think polls are the end all be all of player communication, because they arent. There is a time and place for them, just like there is a time and place for using the forums.

I did not feel the need for a server merge, unless they can ensure some bonus to putting your retainer up in another city, at this rate I'm going to have to put my retainer up in Gridania or LL shout and tell people in Uldah, and offer them a tele to the city and hope they buy my stuff (/joke). But I do keep in contact with people on lower population servers, most of them were ready to reroll onto a different server, this saves them from it. I think we should just make the best of it, since it looks like they'll lean towards giving us some options.

I'd like to see more polls in general.

I think these forums are a fine sample of the overall community.

I wouldn't be against an official poll, however.

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Originally Posted by Biggs

Could not agree more. Thats why I like the player poll they took in the past. It touched on many key elements of the UI and gameplay, yet still left them to fill in all the other portions of the game that make it a FF title.

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Dear FFXIV Team, more polls please =)

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Originally Posted by Biggs

I wanted to respond to this post sooner DarkStar, but ended up going out with my family. I think exactly what you have stated here is an excellent example of the pros and cons of both the forums and the polls. I think that having both is necessary, because, as I have said before, the forums provide a place that players can post questions and concerns, but it shouldnt be used to make desicions concerning everyone in the game. So, as an example of what you have stated here, people from lower population servers use the forums to express their displeasure at having no one to play with (which is actually what happened). SE then see's that a portion of the community isnt enjoying the game, and then decides to merge some of the servers or offer a world transfer. Now, the players on the larger servers dont really feel the need for this, but they can see that there ARE players that do. SE then creates a poll that doesnt ask if there should be one (since they have already made that part of the desicion to do it), but instead creates a poll asking how BOTH communities (the underpopulated and those that are populated just fine) would like to go about fixing the issue for those that need it. Its about finding a balance and creating harmony for everyone. I certainly agree with you though that polls are only good if the right questions are asked in them, and I can see how the forums could be used by the devs to formulate those questions. PLus 1 on your post btw. You bring up some really good points. I dont want people to think (and some do) that I think polls are the end all be all of player communication, because they arent. There is a time and place for them, just like there is a time and place for using the forums.

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oh don't take my post the wrong way. i feel polls from the login screen should be a larger part of the game. i just wanted to point out a major issue with polls and how questions are worded.

if a poll is done the questions and responses need to be much more detailed than a basic "do you want drastic changes?", for example. one person may vote, yes, for one thing such as the stamina bar and others may hate the entire system from top to bottom so they vote the same way. if the developers want to use the polls to get peoples opinions on matters they should make the options detailed on what they actually have considered doing.

just remember the numbers we keep going by on the original polls are not the numbers that would respond to this one. the number of players overall have dropped drastically.

i agree that the polls should have been used through the community on the issue of merges because this is a major community issue. i just wanted to point out issues with the way the original polls were done with the vague questions and show that to get good polling numbers you actually have to give options so they can actually see what the community wants.

it's kinda like the polling numbers of:
do you think congress is doing a good job? no
do you think your representative in congress is doing a good job? yes

those results may show you hate the way congress is working, but since you support your rep and the majority supports theirs that will never change.

You know from that 4-option poll I really missed the option "Server merge? No thanks, not interested" You're right Darkstarpoet1, they should be more detailed & complete when asking questions and giving options. It shouldn't be like "Hmmm which option sucks the least since my option isn't there".

Same with having to pick between "major changes" and "no changes". There is always something people want changed so it's probably really tough to pick "no changes" (but that doesn't have to mean they want everything changed. It's not a carte blanche)

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Originally Posted by KumaAkuma

You know from that 4-option poll I really missed the option "Server merge? No thanks, not interested" You're right Darkstarpoet1, they should be more detailed & complete when asking questions and giving options. It shouldn't be like "Hmmm which option sucks the least since my option isn't there".

Same with having to pick between "major changes" and "no changes". There is always something people want changed so it's probably really tough to pick "no changes" (but that doesn't have to mean they want everything changed. It's not a carte blanche)

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that's what i was referring to. for examples in that first poll i did vote for drastic changes as well as most people.

i wanted:
more ways to level up(not only having leves as the only viable way to level)
fatigue done away(it was easy to have 6-7 classes fatigued every week)
market ward reforms(remember this is when we still had to walk the wards and check each individual retainer)
gathering changes(gathering then was super slow actions and on a successful gather at your level you got round 90 sp)
more content(back then we had nothing end game to work towards)
more mage weapons(the highest con or thm weapon was r44)
crafting changes(you still had to manually put each item in the box every synth)
constant game crash(no directx found)

there are some others i am sure i am forgetting, but you get my points. there's quite a few changes on that list and i consider alot of them game breaking with the original way the game was. i enjoyed the battle system the way it was, but i understand others hated it. there were no direct questions on the battle system, but people use the major percentage voted for change and there is no way to show what percentage of people actually wanted them other than the 24.2% of that poll that asked for battle changes. even of that 24.2% you don't even know what percentage of that wanted the extent of changes we got.

that's where vague questions can get very different results because there was no question of what percentage was happy with the battle system compared to the percentage that wanted change to it. even if the majority wanted changes that's still not broken down to what kind of changes they want. some may want the outdated turn based system, some may want a more action fps style system, some may have just wanted to have battle regimen fixed, and some wanted what we have now. those are completely different versions of a different system and the dev team has to guess what people wanted.

Yeah that sounds about right.

Offtopic: In general I think they really go overboard with changes (Like the battle system). A lot of things could have been solved just by doing some balancing / making some adjustments, instead they throw out the baby with the bathwater and restart from scratch. And still no fine-tuning! It's just one systems that's "meh" replaced by another system that's "meh" (with the added excuse "It's new. Give it some time."

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Originally Posted by Biggs

I can't help but wonder if, the day he got on here and read all the negative feedback about his plan, he wasnt kicking himself for no having done so then. Like I said though, it is the potential for this sort of trend in desicion making to become more common that concerns me. As to the actual server merger issue itself, I could care less. I am on Kashuan for gods sake, I would have gladly taken ANY of those options and been pleased my server has been a freaking ghost town since last year.



Well, when would you like to voice your concern over this sort of trend exactly? Maybe we should wait until they do it again and its to late to stop it over something much more serious next time? I am sorry, but this is an MMO, and to me, player population IS a gameplay issue. This isn't a single player RPG man. I pay a monthly fee to play as part of a community, not sit around Kashuan with only 15 other people talking about the first 2 weeks of the game when we had a few thousand people on our server like it was the good ol days.


I got my percentage from the creative portion of my brain that makes up statistics when none are given to me. I am pretty sure I even say in the OP that that 5% is comepletely fictional because SE doesn't give out any numbers. However, the original player poll showed 10's of thousands of hits, and I can assure you there arent 10's of thousands of people that post on here, and all the other forums combined. In an ideal world, there would be and we could all have a pleasant discourse on the state of the game and discuss ideas we may not see eye-to-eye on without flaming the crap out of each other the way we do on here. But the is reality, and the reality is many people want nothing to do with these forums because either they dont use forums and blogging as a means to communicate, or they dont want to put up with a ton of ass clowns that want to call each other white Knights, trolls, and fanboys ever time they dont agree with a post. They shouldnt be ignored or punished by SE for not wanting to deal with some of the crap on these forums. And while I don't have numbers, I can assure you that 50% of the people that play this game DONT post on here.

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I disagree. You don't need to check clowns here. But if you can't use the dev tracker and news main page, SE shouldn't give a rats about you. Plus, 50% uses it. I didn't say post only. But following the devs comments and reading whatever pops up. 50% is a pretty reasonable rate if not more.

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Originally Posted by Noir

I disagree. You don't need to check clowns here. But if you can't use the dev tracker and news main page, SE shouldn't give a rats about you. Plus, 50% uses it. I didn't say post only. But following the devs comments and reading whatever pops up. 50% is a pretty reasonable rate if not more.

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there is nowhere near 50% using it. on my entire server maybe 15 total people even keep up with anything this game does. that is lodestone, forums, and looking at other places online. if 1 out of 20 people on my server use the sites to keep up with the game they are playing what makes you think a higher percentage of people that do not play the game checks frequently?

i'd be willing to bet the % of people that actually keep up with what is going on instead of hearing it from others is alot closer to 5 than it is 50.

I'm under the impression of what some other intelligent forum goer mentioned before me;
If you're in favor of option 4, then you must have no friends in this game.

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Originally Posted by NefarioCall

I'm under the impression of what some other intelligent forum goer mentioned before me;
If you're in favor of option 4, then you must have no friends in this game.

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I think that's overly simplistic to think.
Some people were/are just fine with option 4 period. They are confident they can move to a new server with their friends, or in the case that they don't have friends, it's a fresh start for them. But the downfalls to option 4 are very obvious once one puts aside how they feel and thinks about the entire picture.

For example: I am fine with option 4 because it presents me the option to move with my LS, which are the only important people to me on the game currently. However, it cannot be ignored that other players have many linkshells, some of which are very large making option 4 a nightmare. Option 2 throws a bone to those players, keeping parts of option 4 throws a bone to players in a more simple situation.

It's not about having no friends, or having a ton of them. It's about looking at the entire picture, not just your specific situation.

Let's get past the rather insulting assumption that everyone who likes option 4 is a complete loner/crazy/human hating player.

Lol

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Originally Posted by NefarioCall

I'm under the impression of what some other intelligent forum goer mentioned before me;
If you're in favor of option 4, then you must have no friends in this game.

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Your forgetting those of us that occupy super low population servers (like mine) that would gladly take ANY of those 4 options over what we have now. Not to mention, how hard is it to say, "hey friends of mine, I am moving to server 6."? Thats pretty much what I said to the friends I play with on this as well as those taking a break, and with the exception of a few of them, each of them were just fine with that. If they don't want to move with you, then they won't be missed for very long. Thats besides the point though, this room shouldnt decend into a debate over which server merging option is the best. There is already 50 or more of those up and running.

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Originally Posted by Noir

I disagree. You don't need to check clowns here. But if you can't use the dev tracker and news main page, SE shouldn't give a rats about you. Plus, 50% uses it. I didn't say post only. But following the devs comments and reading whatever pops up. 50% is a pretty reasonable rate if not more.

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I would say thats a REALLY optimistic number man. Of the 50 or so folks in my old linkshell, only 5 or 6 of us looked up ANYTHING on the lodestone, the rest got their info from the few of us that would check it. Most of the time I would announce upcoming news found on these sites, most players in my ls were unaware.

I think Japanese players are a big majority and in this case they really got angry cause they are very social. Many of them wrote even first time to forums. So I think this was the reason to change. But it is true that more polls are needed and players sd be listened more. And simple reason is that in this game we all have been all time beta testers. And we are today. The forum posts are very valuable to the devs if they only would use their round organs near nose.

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Originally Posted by Biggs

Greatings Forum readers and devs! While I am aware that there are more than SEVERAL posts right now that deal with the current World Merger, I would like to start by saying that, while I will site that as an example, the purpose of this post is to discuss the use of these forums as a means to change the game as a whole, and why I believe that to be a mistake.

After posting the direction Yoshi had chosen to do the world merger, the forums lit up with people flaming the way it was to be done. Every individual that plays this game and pays a fee is TOTALLY entitled to their opinion, and no one should be able to say otherwise. That being said, I was very dismayed to see that the very next day, Yoshi made a post that hinted at flip flopping on using option 4 because it "appeared" that most people liked option 2. I am more than willing to acknowledge that a majority really would like option 2, however, using these forums as the SOLE basis to make a decision like that sets a very dangerous precedent. These forums and the people on them represent a VERY small percentage of the actual player base. So essentially, according to the statements made in his post, Yoshi will be using 5% (a fictional number since I actually don't have any numbers to go off of) of the player base to make a decision that effects the OTHER 95% percent of us.

I feel that the fair way to make large decisions that effect the entire community as whole when asking for input is to use the player polls they have used in the past, and only those polls. These polls don't require you to be a member of any particular guild or forum, the only requirement is that you are a paying customer of their product. The polls have you check from a selection of options that COMPLETELY take emotion out of the equation. While I know that the dev team hopes to conduct a merge by march, and that, regardless of anything we say, they may be moving forward with that, I can only hope that in the future, when making decisions that affect the entire community, they use a fair and neutral tool to do so. It was my understanding that the direction the game is heading now is a direct reflection of the polls that have already been taken, and I can only hope that they will continue to shape the game in this method. While I certainly agree that these forums are a great tool to recieve and answer questions and concerns of the community, they should never be used to make large scale decisions that affect a much larger portion of the player base.

I would like to take the time to thank anyone that has read this lengthy post, and once again, I would like to thank the dev team for putting all of their heart and soul into making this the game we all want it to be. (Especially since it seems to be effecting some of their health in a very negative matter. That, more than anything, shows me how hard they must be working to turn this game around.)

Thanks again,
Biggs

Edit- The post I am citing by Yoshi P can be found on page 16 of this thread:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...004#post549004

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hmm, im not sure if listening to the negative outcry of the community and coming up with a plan that benefits everyone would be considered dangerous ground. In fact id say coming up with a have ass plan and telling the community to deal with it might be more dangerous.

Totally Off topic: Hey Biggs After the Dev figure out what there doing to appease EVERYONE (lol) what server are you going to go to if you pick and if not and they change to 2 merging into one mind if me and turt move to yours or you at us :D would be nice to have people we know :D

On topic: I can see how the forums would be bad and a good thing. I can see them being a good means to judge an idea or a concept (kind of like a verbal test server). The only thing is the forums are only a limited view of players so shouldn't be consulted 100% and if so they need to add in game polls to make it so everyone has a voice for fairness. Other then the lack of fairness it seems nice to actually have a voice in the making of a game you play.

Now for the down side I dont want the creativeness of the Dev's to be limited to are unwilling to try new things or ideas just because its hard to do or understand. It is there game not ours they should have final and total say and if people are to busy arguing of something it binds up the Devs on one issue instead of moving on to other issues we want or they want too fix.

All in all I want them to take are opinions and listen to them and mold a game we can enjoy but dont listen to every loud mouth forum troll that wants this or that changed just because they dont like it or cant get use to how it works.