Player skill level classifications

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Ii mean what started this was hearing someone describe themselves as a casual ultimate raider.

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Why is that an issue? They're separate measures as such they can coexist. There's a couple of people I know still doing ultimate bahamut with there friends because they literally only do it for 2-3 hours one day every weekend or there abouts. They are doing ultimate raids incredibly casually.

Interesting thread, was a good read.

Judging by those classifications I would fall into the high casual category.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Why is that an issue? They're separate measures as such they can coexist. There's a couple of people I know still doing ultimate bahamut with there friends because they literally only do it for 2-3 hours one day every weekend or there abouts. They are doing ultimate raids incredibly casually.

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I feel like it's fairly clear that Riyah doesn't use the terms casual and hardcore in the same way that you do and to be confused by the statement you've quoted you would need to either have not read her OP that started this thread or be feigning ignorance.

I understand that people using words to mean different things can be confusing but in this instance the framework has been laid out explaining why the concept of a casual Ultimate raider would essentially be an oxymoron to her. To question why such as thing doesn't make sense feels disingenuous or uninformed.

I may of missed you replying to this but as others people said, "hardcore" "casual" etc, is ONLY time spent, not skill. Logically more time spend on something the higher skilled they are but that is not always the case. Such as:

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

So which is more hardcore though, a raid group who only does ultimate 3 hours a week, or a raid group that does 10 but is stuck at God kefka? And when you ask for more hardcore and more casual content, what do you ask for? Skill-based content.

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Neither, I do not see 3 or 10 hours a week a line to define hardcore. if they where doing 5 hours a day, sure, hardcore it is, regardless of the progression.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Thinking about this, but I'm not sure it works as much in FFXIV. The latter part we do see. The former part though I don't. Usually the big problem is people don't play with their friends if anything, the FC divides into raid group and casual group. Usually skill sorts out, sadly. I think this does raise the idea of mindset as a strong descriptor, but then you get into issues. At some point that skill usually needs to get expressed in some way. If you know you are good enough, you do want to try. But interesting point.

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Oh it holds true alright, let me explain a personal exmaple of that 230 average bowler that does not want to do leage. If you know what to look for, even with out parsers, my friend which I do expert with almost daily will point out flaws in a person's up time or rotations no matter how they are greaed. She always throws tips for me and others in regards of scripts, so you are moving a head of time before you see the move, and with my lag issues time to time, it is very helpful. This friend however don't do savage even though i'm sure that they are quite able to handle it. why? because we both believe that gear get replaced too fast, making it feel overall pointless, and that she's a very hardcore crafter who enjoies it more than doing savage. I might that she might even be crazy hardcore one also :p , insane playtime with gathering and crafting at times, if motvated. She can grind for long periods of time like how i even remember her getting 2 lvl 60 relic in under 10 days during HW.

I said earlier logically, hardcore players SHOULD be more skilled then casual, due to the greater time investment, but its not always the case. Also one more thing, you can be high skill without ff logs, leads me to have issues with this sentence:
" FFlogs starts to record from high midcore on in my opinion; that's when the focus moves beyond clearing to optimizing and ranking"

Stop trying to pigeon hole people, the skill one does with keeping uptime while doing mechanics is not defend by if a player does savage or not. That is a schedule cooperation, nothing to do with player skill.

I think I probably place myself at high midcore to low hardcore at best on most days (when I'm not sick), at least. :o

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I feel like it's fairly clear that Riyah doesn't use the terms casual and hardcore in the same way that you do and to be confused by the statement you've quoted you would need to either have not read her OP that started this thread or be feigning ignorance.

I understand that people using words to mean different things can be confusing but in this instance the framework has been laid out explaining why the concept of a casual Ultimate raider would essentially be an oxymoron to her. To question why such as thing doesn't make sense feels disingenuous or uninformed.

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First, I think within the realms of Riyah's gauge here, "Soft-Core" not only fits better in the scheme of things than "Casual" due to fitting the naming scheme, but also because there's less time-commitment connotations to it.

Second, the thread started because somebody described themselves as a casual ultimate raider. That in and of itself speaks to the need to separate the term "Casual" out: casual for time commitment, and perhaps a new term for skill level, possibly the coined "Soft-Core." You will not be in ultimate with a Soft-Core or "casual" skill level, however you can be in there casually, as in not dedicating overly long stretches of time to it.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

What are your thoughts on this classification list?

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You're trying to arbitrarily label and classify players who don't fit in a box.

"Casual" in it's most literal sense is a player who does not do anything that requires a time commitment. So most of your Tank and Healers in duties, regardless of skill level, are easily this, along with people who just login to do weekly things. "I got 15 minutes, what do I play?"

"Hardcore" in it's most literal sense are players who overcommit to everything. Duties, Raids, Hunts, Crafting, get everything to 70 on as fast as possible. And also complain that there's nothing to do, yet still grind away. "I got 8 hours a day to grind out tomes/raid to gear all my jobs"

Anything in between are players who know and set their limits. They don't commit to things they just don't want to do, maybe they will do it later, maybe never. You don't need 9 ranks for this.

Those labels have nothing to do with skill. The game doesn't even provide a way to gauge skill level, and there is no actual way to gauge skill level since it will depend on how well someone is at working with random PUG's, not just FC's or Statics. Someone who can only perform well with the team they form can only be fairly measured against another team of the same with the same goals. Otherwise it's an apples and bananas comparison. A sports analogy would be picking the entire college basketball team who trained together, and PUG's being picking random strangers that you saw in an outdoor basketball court at some point. Maybe you luck out and it's a good team, but in general it will still be an under-performing team.

The words usually used to describe a skill level are "Beginner" / "Amateur" for players who are new. After that point everyone is experienced and any further classification is meaningless without context. Certainly no content in FFXIV is worth dedicating hours per day unless you're being paid (eg Twitch/Youtube/Patreon, eSports, etc) and if you're making enough to make a full time job of it, then you can call yourself a Professional. (People don't generally pay players to be bad at games unless that's their stichk.) So one might be really good at just one piece of content, and average at everything else, that doesn't elevate their gaming skill level. Just because someone is really good at Monopoly doesn't make them automatically good at Scrabble.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

First, I think within the realms of Riyah's gauge here, "Soft-Core" not only fits better in the scheme of things than "Casual" due to fitting the naming scheme, but also because there's less time-commitment connotations to it.

Second, the thread started because somebody described themselves as a casual ultimate raider. That in and of itself speaks to the need to separate the term "Casual" out: casual for time commitment, and perhaps a new term for skill level, possibly the coined "Soft-Core." You will not be in ultimate with a Soft-Core or "casual" skill level, however you can be in there casually, as in not dedicating overly long stretches of time to it.

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I think the issue at the root of most of the misunderstandings here is that (despite quite a long OP) people seem unable to wrap their heads around the idea that someone uses the terms casual and hardcore differently than they do. Personally my definitions are more closely tied to Riyah's (they represent skill levels and generally content completed) than to this idea of them being purely about time invested.

I think perhaps the idea of supplanting casual with soft-core could be fine but at this point if we want to look harder at the reason behind the thread than at the results it produces we just need to understand that language, particularly language surrounding a relatively new and niche topic like gaming, is rarely going to be the same across the board.

Riyah had a hard time reconciling someone describing themselves as a casual Ultimate raider with her skill-based definition of casual and made this list to express her thoughts on the terms casual and hardcore. People have responded from the camp of a more time-based definition for those words, saying that they don't represent skill levels.

At some point everyone has to realize that neither of these definitions are inherently correct. Gaming jargon has evolved quickly and continues to do so, to expect uniformity is to be incredibly unrealistic. To some people casual means little time invested, to some it means only a certain tier of content completed, to some it surely means something else entirely.

If everyone argues from the stance of "no, my definition is the correct one" this becomes a pointless conversation.

I think the most important thing is that no matter the words we use to describe any of these facets of the playerbase we understand that other people may use and interperet them differently so context matters. We also have to avoid attaching negative connotations to any of them as best we can. No one deserves to be looked down upon for any of these traits. Assuming someone doesn't know what they're doing because there is a sprout over their head is just as bad as assuming someone with an Ultimate weapon will be rude or standoffish.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

"Casual" in it's most literal sense is a player who does not do anything that requires a time commitment. So most of your Tank and Healers in duties, regardless of skill level, are easily this, along with people who just login to do weekly things. "I got 15 minutes, what do I play?"

"Hardcore" in it's most literal sense are players who overcommit to everything. Duties, Raids, Hunts, Crafting, get everything to 70 on as fast as possible. And also complain that there's nothing to do, yet still grind away. "I got 8 hours a day to grind out tomes/raid to gear all my jobs"

Anything in between are players who know and set their limits. They don't commit to things they just don't want to do, maybe they will do it later, maybe never. You don't need 9 ranks for this.

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While I find all of Kisai's post objectionable (shocker lol) I take particular issue with this part.

First and foremost - she does not set the definitions for these words. Her say is not the final one. As long as people continue to use these words tied to other meanings there will be too broad of a potential use to tie them down to such a small scope.

Second - her definition of hardcore just screams her huge bias against the entire raider community. She views these people who dedicate themselves to perfecting and optimizing their play as somehow "less than" because they don't share her warped view of how the game works. Saying they "overcommit" to things (how does one overcommit to hunts? Maybe by using that pesky third party hunt tool :thinking: ) as if there is a predetermined level of appropriate commitment.

News flash - there isn't. For some people who have time to spare this game is their one big hobby. It's fine if it isn't yours but to put someone down by implying they have no self control just because they're doing better than you is really shortsighted and ignorant.

I'm somewhere between casual, and midcore. Good enough for the first couple of savages and all but one of the extremes(I haven't looked into shinryu yet as I have soooo much on my plate in this game already, even with all 70's), but I don't care about potions, and I am not fast enough as a mouse clicker for perfect rotations AND watching mechanics.

I did my time as a high midcore or low hardcore in my last mmo. I'll never let myself do that again.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

News flash - there isn't. For some people who have time to spare this game is their one big hobby. It's fine if it isn't yours but to put someone down by implying they have no self control just because they're doing better than you is really shortsighted and ignorant.

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You are right, saying everyone that plays hardcore is overcommit is wrong, however some people still do that time to time. "(how does one overcommit to hunts? Maybe by using that pesky third party hunt tool :thinking: )" that is simple. It differs from person to person but its basically spending more time then they can afford to, mainly though an addiction issue (though there are situations where that can happen outside that) For my personal example, my friend that i call crazy hardcore at times does overcommit at times. How do I know? the fact she complains about "have to" do some activity in x amount of time, usually some high bar goal in regards to gathering. She does stuff like that even though she heavily dislikes it, that is overcomiting

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Originally Posted by Hamada

You are right, saying everyone that plays hardcore is overcommit is wrong, however some people still do that time to time. "(how does one overcommit to hunts? Maybe by using that pesky third party hunt tool :thinking: )" that is simple. It differs from person to person but its basically spending more time then they can afford to, mainly though an addiction issue (though there are situations where that can happen outside that) For my personal example, my friend that i call crazy hardcore at times does overcommit at times. How do I know? the fact she complains about "have to" do some activity in x amount of time, usually some high bar goal in regards to gathering. She does stuff like that even though she heavily dislikes it, that is overcomiting

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And that's exactly what I was talking about. We all know people like this.

If you're going to overcommit to the game, and not have time to eat, bathe, do laundry, go to work, etc then that goes right into addiction criteria.

Notice when people complain that they either have no time to setup statics, or people in statics complain that people keep bailing on them.

I've already played a MMORPG where I was bugged from dawn to dusk to play with people (that I would logout of chat), and people getting upset that I would play with some and not others. Overcommitment is simply not healthy.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

...I think there are multiple levels of skill...

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Correct - unless something very strange is happening, player-skill will fall on a normal-distribution (or bell) curve, with relatively few players at either end and most somewhere in the middle.
Some people seem to think intensive tuition will change this but in fact, while the skill level of players may increase generally, the curve will stay the same shape. In other words the proportion of exceptionally good and bad players will stay the same.

My main criticism of your categories is that you are using terms which are frequently used by players and developers (especially developers), not to describe player skill but the time a player has available to play.

Looking through your list, your categories seem muddled and not particularly helpful.
You seem to be working on the assumption that skill will neatly align 100% with available time and preferred activities.
For example you assume that a player who values the social aspects of the game will be low-skilled, with the implication that the more skilled a player is, the less the social aspect matters. Are we to conclude that you think all highly skilled players have little to no social skills, or no interest in social interaction? That seems implausible since raiding and even dungeons to some extent, require good communication and team work.
I feel you are confusing player-skill with player-types.

Which brings me to my main point, why are you attempting to put players into categories according to skill?
Usually this sort of post goes along with some sort of idea about training the bad players or excluding them from certain content so the poster won't have to deal with them. While it's refreshing that you are not making any similar suggestions, there doesn't seem to be a point to this.

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Originally Posted by Solarra

Correct - unless something very strange is happening, player-skill will fall on a normal-distribution (or bell) curve, with relatively few players at either end and most somewhere in the middle.
Some people seem to think intensive tuition will change this but in fact, while the skill level of players may increase generally, the curve will stay the same shape. In other words the proportion of exceptionally good and bad players will stay the same.

My main criticism of your categories is that you are using terms which are frequently used by players and developers (especially developers), not to describe player skill but the time a player has available to play.

Looking through your list, your categories seem muddled and not particularly helpful.
You seem to be working on the assumption that skill will neatly align 100% with available time and preferred activities.
For example you assume that a player who values the social aspects of the game will be low-skilled, with the implication that the more skilled a player is, the less the social aspect matters. Are we to conclude that you think all highly skilled players have little to no social skills,
or no interest in social interaction? That seems implausible since raiding and even dungeons to some extent, require good communication and team work.
I feel you are confusing player-skill with player-types.

Which brings me to my main point, why are you attempting to put players into categories according to skill?
Usually this sort of post goes along with some sort of idea about training the bad players or excluding them from certain content so the poster won't have to deal with them. While it's refreshing that you are not making any similar suggestions, there doesn't seem to be a point to this.

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Exactly, I might fit in the low casual on this list, I do level jobs but I do not do much outside that. I do the current normal version of raids and the current 24 man, but likely a lot less if my friend would not ask me to come along. She asks me to go for the pure social aspect, told me before she would hardly do anything without a friend because it feels empty and joyless.

With that said she talked to me about this list and explained why she would not fit anywhere on this list. highly skilled but values social aspect most of all. Does not do endgame contentbut crafts. She can keep up on uptime while watching others, and is very good at pointing out how well others are doing, regardless of job. Every day she explains clues about how well or poor someone is doing and ends up being right every time. (Todays exmaple would be showing me a log pic of someone being "new" to the game, but saw thier good play. Asked about it and found out the player does research. So when I say this it is not just about picking out obvious bad play but average and good play as well) Some newer players will admit as such, give tips to them, other times she gets backlash and ends up kicking people purely on toxic social interactions. Someone that cares only about productivity would tell her to deal with it, it is only 15 mintues, so you are not waiting on a replacment.

So her skill level would be one of the "hard cores" on the list, and yet she fits low causal from the socal aspect, plus mainly caring about crafting over battle content. She would also fit in the midcore statments, talking about they are critical over knowing rotations and keeping uptime, while once again, not doing savage. So like you said, this is definitely unhelpful list and will not work for some people at all. Hardcore, casual, etc is only amount of time players put in a day for time spent in the game, has nothing to do with skill or what they do in the game. When you try to link 2 or 3 unreleated aspects, you are bound to run into those that can't fit on the list.

And as usual people are overly offended by a thread that in no way shape or form warrants hostility, for no reason greater, than the sake of being offended.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

And that's exactly what I was talking about. We all know people like this.

If you're going to overcommit to the game, and not have time to eat, bathe, do laundry, go to work, etc then that goes right into addiction criteria.

Notice when people complain that they either have no time to setup statics, or people in statics complain that people keep bailing on them.

I've already played a MMORPG where I was bugged from dawn to dusk to play with people (that I would logout of chat), and people getting upset that I would play with some and not others. Overcommitment is simply not healthy.

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So are you saying that only people who are foregoing basic hygiene and life are hardcore?

Or are you trying to imply all hardcore raiders must be stuffing hot pockets in their mouths and wearing dirty clothes?

I can't imagine anyone thinking that ignoring the necessities of life are okay to ignore in favor if a videogame. I'm sure they're out there but they most definitely aren't as common as people who identify as hardcore raiders.

As usual you not only miss the point but change the benchmark to suit a strawman argument only you see. Classic.

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Originally Posted by Hamada

You are right, saying everyone that plays hardcore is overcommit is wrong, however some people still do that time to time. "(how does one overcommit to hunts? Maybe by using that pesky third party hunt tool :thinking: )" that is simple. It differs from person to person but its basically spending more time then they can afford to, mainly though an addiction issue (though there are situations where that can happen outside that) For my personal example, my friend that i call crazy hardcore at times does overcommit at times. How do I know? the fact she complains about "have to" do some activity in x amount of time, usually some high bar goal in regards to gathering. She does stuff like that even though she heavily dislikes it, that is overcomiting

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With all due respect the argument "some people commit too much time to this game" does nothing to defend "all hardcore players commit too much time to this game"... I see where you went with it but it really does nothing to back up Kisai's 'point' if that had been your intent. Plenty of people do very well at FFXIV without missing out on another facet of life.

Meanwhile, I was getting Strava KoMs and maintaining a successful career whilst also raiding hardcore during ARR/early Gordias.

The irony is Sfia, who did 14-16 hour WF prog on Ultimate, not only had a whole healthy meal plan organized but also a mandatory sleep regiment. He spoke about it on Frosty's podcast. In all likelihood, he probably ate better foods than most people do normally. Perhaps it's best not to make assumptions about how other people play.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

With all due respect the argument "some people commit too much time to this game" does nothing to defend "all hardcore players commit too much time to this game"... I see where you went with it but it really does nothing to back up Kisai's 'point' if that had been your intent. Plenty of people do very well at FFXIV without missing out on another facet of life.

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I was not backing up Kisai's point, more explaining what they truly meant. I repeat myself, I disagree that all hardcore players = the extreme they said, I am also in disagreement they implied the friend I have also does that. I simply said some people can overcomit to this game by spending too much time on it, and how much that means varies from person to person. With my example, they are overcomiting because they do not want to be spending that amount of time they did those few weeks, but did anyway, and did so because there was a "need to" over doing it because they wanted to. You asked how does one overcommit to hunts, and I was answering that question, has nothing to do with 3rd party tools.

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Originally Posted by Hamada

I was not backing up Kisai's point, more explaining what they truly meant. I repeat myself, I disagree that all hardcore players = the extreme they said, I am also in disagreement they implied the friend I have also does that. I simply said some people can overcomit to this game by spending too much time on it, and how much that means varies from person to person. With my example, they are overcomiting because they do not want to be spending that amount of time they did those few weeks, but did anyway, and did so because there was a "need to" over doing it because they wanted to. You asked how does one overcommit to hunts, and I was answering that question, has nothing to do with 3rd party tools.

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Moro was trying to find insult where none was implied.

I speak from experience. If you start spending so much time in the game that you're not enjoying it, it feels like a chore, and can't drop it because you might let down your friends, then you've overcommited to it, and it will end badly. The problem is that a small amount of people who would call themselves hardcore, can't see the big picture that once you let the game control your social interactions, you're planning your life around a game. If you're not being paid by Twitch/Youtube to play the game, you have really no reason at all to give the game your social life.

IMO there's different kinds of "casual" as there's different kinds of "hardcore" that can't quite be captured by bullet points like this.

How would you call someone who doesn't do savage, yet has done all relic, collected all orchestrions, TT cards, sightseeing logs, mounts, minions? I would definitely qualify such a person as hardcore, probably more than some people grinding Savage. There's a bunch of people that live for achievement hunting that I know of and consider truly hardcore players, despite them not doing much savage.