Does anybody else notice a PUG issue with Savage lately?

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Originally Posted by Yeol

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Is it really that much of a difference between the JP and NA player base? I'm not saying that what you're saying is invalid, but wondering if the difference is that big. It's hard to imagine that over in JP, them playing it safe still allows them leeway to beat enrage. Or perhaps you don't mean by pushing big deeps as quickly as possible. It was only recently that I started learning about macros (you know the ones I'm talking about). My own personal opinion is that it cheapens the fight...but then again, I can understand how it would help someone who may have a hard time remembering mechanics.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Is it really that much of a difference between the JP and NA player base? I'm not saying that what you're saying is invalid, but wondering if the difference is that big. It's hard to imagine that over in JP, them playing it safe still allows them leeway to beat enrage. Or perhaps you don't mean by pushing big deeps as quickly as possible. It was only recently that I started learning about macros (you know the ones I'm talking about). My own personal opinion is that it cheapens the fight...but then again, I can understand how it would help someone who may have a hard time remembering mechanics.

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Generally, JP playerbase average performance is much higher than NA/EU (At least this is what I noticed with my alt). Also, Creator Savage unofficial census showed that JP generally have higher clear rates than NA/EU. With SB and cross data-center party recruitment, I hope to see better results for NA/EU in Omega.

Up-time strats and cheesing mechanics were not used for clears until later. Because people did not have time to experiment and were more focused on doing things safely to get the clear first. They go back when they have time to re-run and experiment with content, then they come up with up-time strats and cheese mechanics. So answering your question, with iL350, a good party can beat enrage even with no up-time strat or cheesing mechanics. You can look at week 1 clear videos to see how they did it :)

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

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I think it's more of a difference in attitude. They don't want to embarrass themselves by not knowing the fight and wasting other peoples time. Western communities on the other hand are more prone to 'you don't pay my sub' and 'I don't know the fight that well but as long as everybody else does...'.
Imagine NA/EU partyfinder if people would assess their own level of competence in an individual fight correctly.
That's how I understand things working over there (most of the time).

Since before this game even launched most likely, though I think I've seen the highest concentration of it due to attitudes that need not be alluded to more than they already have been. People aren't able to accurately assess their own performance/progress on fights a lot of the time and assume that the others are the problem. This is compounded by the fact that without numbers specifying otherwise, if one group you join clears and the other group you join doesn't people are prone to assuming it was the other group that was bad and not that the clearing group carried you.

The game does a poor job of emphasizing or even teaching the basics of upper level play (cooldown management, aggro management, proper use of healing ogcds. dps rotations, etc; ) so unless people are willing to go outside the game or ask a friend to help teach them they will likely be performing at far below average levels. Couple that with sloppy mechanic handling and you've got a very common recipe for disaster when it comes to more difficult content. This raid tier especially I've noticed a complete lack of aggro management and rather low dps across the board even when I've specifically asked people to use aggro management skills like shirk and diversion.

Overall though, I've noticed a decrease in the quality of attitudes overall even in more basic content like expert roulette. Back when I started it felt like people would race to be the first one to say hello and friendly conversation could be found in a good chunk of the runs you did. Now greeting people at the beginning of dungeons is usually met with silence at least in the last few dungeon runs I bothered doing. For a while, I was all for pugging savage but it wore me down to the point that I joined a static and put raiding on the backburner as I just wasn't getting enough enjoyment out of it to justify the headache I walked away with.

Maximilian, that is understandable. I'm starting to get burned out myself trying to get to v8s. And I do notice some of the tempers and attitudes. Before, I saw it mostly in alte roite and catastrophe, but I'm this tier, I'm seeing it everywhere. I usually just keep my mouth shut for the most part, but going along with pugs is difficult. The main problem in coming across is not bad dps, but rather an overwhelming amount of failed mechanics.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

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I have the same impression as you.
I began to raid on Alex S in PF and other than A11S the rest went quite well.
Since SB, the PF parties began to crumble. Especially on O3S/ O7S. I couldn't finish O4S before the new tier because the O3S took me 6 months...
I don't know but my feeling is that players lie more often now to get their clear: ex: "kill party" but don't even know 3/4 of the fight...
Even I went to lie at the end to go on mindjack on a "kill party" because all the mindjack training never went further than animal phase "if" lucky.

As from a healer perspective, I feel ppl care less about the group and mechanics. Everything is DPS fflog goal this tier, a lot of healers just dps with a regen/shiel on and I see myself solo healing more often.

Now I get super excited went I finally get a healer partner who co heal with me. That's kind of sad.
And yes, you aren't able to get a good party after Wednesday.

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Originally Posted by Mayku

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Yeah...I'm guilty of that too. I tend to not care about anybody's DPS numbers other than my own when it comes to beating enrage. And that's my problem. I don't play as a team member...I'm playing and view my other 7 party members as competition and feel like I have to outDPS them. Which tends to be why I don't really speak unless confirming mechanics or apologizing if I happen to make a mistake. Aside from that, I view everyone as competition that I have to beat. Until flipping V7S happened. I kinda didn't want to get stuck here like I did with V3S...yet I'm still here. And unfortunately, I can't YOLO it like I did with V3S because, for one, I'm not healing this time, and two, I can't help recover from a punishingly catastrophic mistake.

I think we began to forget how to talk to each other.
If I tell people in training "Let's try to understand the mechanics first before caring about the dps".
I get backfired in the face.
I do understand that when we reach enrage, we all need to think how we can, each of us gain some dps. Still I believe that if we all do the basics of our jobs and do the mechanics "correctly" without any death, enrage should not be a problem. The goal should be the kill, not the first place of the dps list in fflogs.

I will say sorry If I did fuck up, try to get better myself,... and if I don't see any improvement of the party, I will leave PF.

10 years ago I was in a Jp static in FFXI and I do recall the differences. EU/NA will more tunnel vision, wanting to become n°1, take easy ways (Skip Zoar) and blame on others for our failures.
Japaneses ppl will think group kill, group well being, Intended tactic (no skip of mechanics)... that's why I think jp PF may still be better than ours.