Can we have a Male Healer and a Female Tank?

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

can we not waste time on pointless stuff?

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Is that really a valid complaint when dealing with video games?

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Originally Posted by kikix12

No. He's simply asking for a representation of classes in press releases to include male healers and female tank characters.

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Basically, he's asking for a "face", without affecting the actual "body" of the game.

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The question is, why on earth does it matter? It's a change that doesn't hurt anything to do, to be fair, but it also doesn't hurt anything to leave it the way it is because it's only art that has zero impact on your ability to play whatever race/gender/class combo you want.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Is that really a valid complaint when dealing with video games?

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Yes, especially when this "request" has to do with switching gender roles (sigh) in official artwork and doesn't even have anything to do with the game itself. Even if the request were for something in-game, different requests clearly do still have varying levels of "pointlessness" to them. For example, asking for a way to change the eyes of every NPC green doesn't hold nearly the same weight as asking for new glamour options. Both are "pointless" because they're generally irrelevant to gameplay, but the former is much more pointless than the latter.

I will say that it would be cool to see more girl tanks in the story, since the only notable ones so far are Moenbryda and that Au Ra from the Warrior quest line, which is hardly saying much.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

The question is, why on earth does it matter? It's a change that doesn't hurt anything to do, to be fair, but it also doesn't hurt anything to leave it the way it is because it's only art that has zero impact on your ability to play whatever race/gender/class combo you want.

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To me it doesn't matter. To the original poster it does.

As to why it does matter to him, the answer is simple. It is ideologically against his beliefs to leave the matters as they are now.

If you are a believer in any religion that have sacred items, sacred tomes or anything of that sort, consider this. Would you still say that it doesn't matter when someone would have such an item of special worth in your religion and officially, publicly, destroy it in a manner most offensive for the religion? For example, someone nailing the Christians Old Testament to one side of a standard cross, New Testament to the other and then burning the cross with the books?! This is the exact same case here. Religion is an ideology in which one believes, such as gender equality. However, various people have varying degrees of attachment. Some people would want to lynch whoever did such a thing as I described above for such sacrilege, others would say that if the books and cross were his, it's his choice what he does to them...but probably would think it's tasteless to do that as a show, at least.

I picked such a heavily controversial example for a reason by the way. I am in no way implying that this is nearly as severe case (though for some...it is). It's just easiest to explain using something most would understand...and most would understand there being negative reaction to a sacrilege as defined by their religion.

You had me until you veered off into the woods with talking about actual desecration of physical items that may or may not belong to you*. A more apt but-still-not-quite-accurate comparison to this topic would be some people trying to change the genders of the characters in religious text (which I guess would still be desecration to some people, but that's getting into an argument about semantics).

*I would consider myself an agnostic at best, but to attempt to answer your question, how I'd feel depends on who the item belongs to. If someone goes and destroys an actual historic item, like preserved text or a statue, I'd be angry simply because they're vandalizing something that doesn't belong to them, regardless of my religious belief. If they're destroying their own personal property, that's on them, and I'm a pragmatic man so I think I'd feel the same way even if I adhered to a religion that held that particular item to be sacred.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

You had me until you veered off into the woods with talking about actual desecration of physical items that may or may not belong to you*.

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That was an example of the same concept. I'm constantly amazed how people compare things instinctively every single time they see something new, but repeatedly fail to see a connection when it is plainly given and explained to them.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

A more apt but-still-not-quite-accurate comparison to this topic...

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It's not more apt. It's the same, just on a less "intense" level. Ideology is a single concept encompassing every personal, non-universal belief a person uses to interact with the world. All ideologies work exactly in the same way. What I compare with one another, so long as it is an ideology and as long as the comparison is on that ground, will always be accurate. Your example IS perfectly accurate as well. But the same people that don't care about the representation of character genders in the promotional material are very likely to not care about that too much either, so how is that an example supposed to explain the concept? It'd fail at its primary function. That's why I used a very strong example...and even went ahead and explained the reason for that choice...Go figure.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

(...)but to attempt to answer your question(...)

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Where have you seen a question that needed you to answer to me in my post? I even wrote specifically for you to consider what I said. For you to answer to yourself. I don't care for discussing religious and related matters on this forum. I'm way too easy to agitate on actual ideologies...which is not actually rare or special in any way. I was just trying to make you understand why this thread was made after you implied you do not know why it would matter. Fruitlessly it seems.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

If someone goes and destroys an actual historic item, like preserved text or a statue, I'd be angry simply because they're vandalizing something that doesn't belong to them, regardless of my religious belief.

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Ironically, that is exactly the same as far as this topic goes. The concept of "ownership" and "right of the masses" where it is put on historical objects and similar wonders is the exact same thing. Negative feelings born from your belief of something wrong taking place. You seem to not understand that, but from ideological stand point, it is the exact same thing as the example I wrote. Just giving birth to a different kind of feeling. Feeling of being offended in my example versus anger in your example. All else is equal.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

They do certainly seem to lean towards those stereotypes. Maybe it's something they can mix up when they add new jobs. Though if the new job is Dancer as a healer, all bets are off. The marketing team is probably not going to want that to be a male Roe...

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Oh, but you know there will be nearly naked male dancer Roes wearing chocobo heads....and it will be amazing.

Wow, just, wow?

This thread seems to have escalated rather quickly. I do thank people for defending my inquiry, and for those who shared an honest opinion.

But for those who are more vocal about how "pointless" my question was, which I said in my intro post too, but to those let me rephase my question so that you might have a better understanding of where I'm coming from. Now I apologise if I am quoting anything someone has said prior... erhmmm...

I really want Dancer in the game.
I think adding in Geomancer would be awesome.
I would love to see a Mystic Knight Tank.
I think Puppetmaster would be a great addition.
I wish they could find a way to make Blue Mage work.

I hope one can see the parallels since my analogy is paper thin. But ultimately, its just a yes or no question.

So long as the gear they are showing doesn’t drastically change going from male to female (or vice versa), I couldn’t care less about what character they use to model gear.

Man people complain about anything now a days lol

they seem complaint about nothing nor is they complaint value

let me listen all female male character involve in job quests that are involve if they won't skip cutscene they notice them

first sword is woman she gladiator class trainer involve in a lot glad story quest she pre quest to paladin. though I love see the paladin take on a squire and train them sound like fun addition to the story
the dragoon heavenwards the dragoon you work with is female Elvaan dragoon. I not sure how Elvaan reproduce with a lot players not play female or male Elvaans
the black mage the stormblood the black mage is woman even in quest for black mage she is a she lalfaal
the starter for arcanist is a woman female Miqo'te, oh by way the summoner quest giver is female Miqo'te also she sister of Y'shtola
I don't know how people miss this unless they skips the cutescenes

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

let me listen all female male character involve in job quests that are involve if they won't skip cutscene they notice them

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They are talking about PROMOTIONAL material, not in-game content...

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Originally Posted by kikix12

They are talking about PROMOTIONAL material, not in-game content...

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There's nothing wrong with using traditional jobs for each race's strengths on Art. It's not like it's the ONLY person that uses that job in the game. They also did the same thing in FFXI with the ARK Angels fight.

They had a M Tarutaru BLM, a M Galka SAM and M Hume NIN, a F Mithra BST and a F Elvaan PLD.

About the topic, SCH sounds me like the only exception about healers being portraited as woman. At official Job Guide, SCH is portraited as a man.

For me, the problem is more like woman are under represented there. Only AST, WHM (healers), MNK, SAM (melee DPS) and BRD (ranged DPS) are portraited as woman there. All other jobs were men.

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Originally Posted by dejiko_san

There's nothing wrong with using traditional jobs for each race's strengths on Art.

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I don't care either way. The only class I would want to be shown as a specific gender is Dancer, as a female. And part of that being that I just hate male clothing designs even in real life. All else I couldn't care less either way.

I merely explained to a person that did not understand what this thread is about...what it is about.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

About the topic, SCH sounds me like the only exception about healers being portraited as woman. At official Job Guide, SCH is portraited as a man.

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For quite a while I thought that was the case...since I didn't really pay much attention, but when I actually begun doing that...It's not a man. It's a woman. The long hair and a slimmer build give it away. And the fact that she have a skirt...Scholars clothes just don't really underline the feminine traits of the body all that much.

http://www.ffxivinfo.com/images/disciplines/scholar.png

Female lala tank + male roe whm/nin. Make it happen!

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Originally Posted by kikix12

I don't care either way. The only class I would want to be shown as a specific gender is Dancer, as a female. And part of that being that I just hate male clothing designs even in real life. All else I couldn't care less either way.

I merely explained to a person that did not understand what this thread is about...what it is about.

For quite a while I thought that was the case...since I didn't really pay much attention, but when I actually begun doing that...It's not a man. It's a woman. The long hair and a slimmer build give it away. And the fact that she have a skirt...Scholars clothes just don't really underline the feminine traits of the body all that much.

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You proved your point.

Right now somethinhg exploded inside my head.

I remember during the Stormblood countdown the AST pic was a Male and I LOVED IT!! it was beautiful. I was so surprised to see it

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Originally Posted by TristanBlane

I remember during the Stormblood countdown the AST pic was a Male and I LOVED IT!! it was beautiful. I was so surprised to see it

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And in quite the alluring pose, to boot. There's no mistaking it being a guy, either, because of the differences in design between the genders in the AST AF3 set.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

About the topic, SCH sounds me like the only exception about healers being portraited as woman. At official Job Guide, SCH is portraited as a man.

For me, the problem is more like woman are under represented there. Only AST, WHM (healers), MNK, SAM (melee DPS) and BRD (ranged DPS) are portraited as woman there. All other jobs were men.

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you are forgetting RDM and BLM those are females in the concept art. SAM, since you mentioned it, is debatable, but as I said in my opening post, the neck is kinda thick for a female Elezen.

Additionally while Kikix12 has the right correction for your SCH description, she linked the wrong image. This thread is about the concept art since that is the canon art for XIV. But as you can see the concept art is female as well
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20170723180726

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Additionally while Kikix12 has the right correction for your SCH description, she linked the wrong image.

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I just posted that in reference to how miraidensetsu said that the official guides scholar is male. The art I posted is the one used in that guide, hence why I brought it up.

but technically speaking Scholar and Rdm (fencing) is a male thing through all huamn history so i will put smn in girl while sch and rdm male plus every rdm in final fanatsy is usually male same with blue mage male while white mage and black mage usually female

might be worth pointing out that the class artwork (not job) has more variation. the pugilist art for example is a male highlander while the marauder is a female roegadyn.

1.) Might want to change the title of this thread to make it a little less misleading.
2.) Why does it matter what gender the characters in the artwork are?

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Originally Posted by Eloah

I know this will probably get lost amidst the flog of Live Letter "feedback" but I figured I'd try. I was answering someones question about lore, specifically the BLM from the Warriors of Darkness's party, why he's a he and not a she, like Warriors of Light's party, and the promotion material. so this got me thinking about which jobs are represented by which gender. Initial promotional art, not all subsequent art; since the promo art is supposed to represent the "newest" Warrior of Light in the ever growing party of Derplander, Meteor, Bob or whatever his name is, XD.

Male - Tanks (PLD, WAR, DRK), NIN, DRG, SAM, MCH, SMN

I am placing SAM in the male section since, regardless of how androgynous it looks, the features seem to lean more on the male side. Not to mention that RDM is female so it would make more sense, kinda

Female - Healers (WHM, SCH, AST), MNK, BRD, BLM, RDM

As you can see, the listings are diverse, no one gender capitalizes on everything, race aside. But you'll notice that each does capitalize on a role; tanks for male and healers for female.

Now it may seem insignificant, but I would like to see the promo art for the next tank and healer jobs be of the opposite gender of what they have been. Does anyone agree?

TLDR: Artwork for tanks is always male, artwork for healers is always female, would you like to see this reversed for the next tank and healer released?

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What exactly is being talked about here I honestly don't understand. What is wrong with what? The representation of genders and classes? This thread is also very old, what is this even about honestly. I need this explained simply.

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Originally Posted by Spratchet

1.) Why does it matter what gender the characters in the artwork are?

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You're asking this question in 2019. Lmao

Not sure why it matters.

This feels like a troll thread

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Originally Posted by Lihtleita

might be worth pointing out that the class artwork (not job) has more variation. the pugilist art for example is a male highlander while the marauder is a female roegadyn.

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I was looking for someone to mention this. It's one of my favorite pieces
https://i.imgur.com/EPWVKvL.jpg
Anyways, this thread and the guy who made it are goofy

I think you good do a lot to help make gear better for both genders by simply not having so many robes and capes and gowns. And bring in more shorter options.

dalmaticas shirts or jackets sort of thing for a healer body instead of the full length robes and gown they tend to go with would help a lot. You could feminise that jacket with dyes or accompany it with a skirt and thighboots if you chose. Or masculine it up with dyes and a pair of slacks.

Similar things could be done for a lot of dps and tank jobs. Again theres so many gowns and robes and capes out there but not much else. Theres a lot of sets out there I'd actual like if they didn't have giant full length capes every single time.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

I think you good do a lot to help make gear better for both genders by simply not having so many robes and capes and gowns. And bring in more shorter options.

dalmaticas shirts or jackets sort of thing for a healer body instead of the full length robes and gown they tend to go with would help a lot. You could feminise that jacket with dyes or accompany it with a skirt and thighboots if you chose. Or masculine it up with dyes and a pair of slacks.

Similar things could be done for a lot of dps and tank jobs. Again theres so many gowns and robes and capes out there but not much else. Theres a lot of sets out there I'd actual like if they didn't have giant full length capes every single time.

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Isn't that sort of what was done in XI (for technical limitations, granted, but it was kind of a big deal when WHM's classic long robes where translated into a short tunic with pants)? I'm a huge fan of long coats and robes and all but can agree on some shorter options, just as long as we don't get a repeat of "decent sized pants for men become booty shorts on women"

BRD is one job I can see rocking a shorter light armor since they're supposed to be used to running around the Twelveswood providing support, and the long coat and huge hat seems counter-intuitive for that. SCH already got some steampunk-esque AF armor so some Victorian suits would fit nicely and maintain the "academic" aesthetic of the class.

Also, don't know if it was mentioned, but in the Viera and Hrothgar screenshot featuring glasses, she's wearing PLD armor, and I think the Hroth is in SCH gear? (and Urianger's going AST for ShB, it seems).

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Originally Posted by Spratchet

1.) Might want to change the title of this thread to make it a little less misleading.
2.) Why does it matter what gender the characters in the artwork are?

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Someone didn't learn advertising and business. I think it sucks female roe/highlander get shafted for kawaii uguu cat girls and lizards but the promo's gotta sell the masses on the game. That's where they gotta play it "safe" and normal. Once they're in, they're in. Money goes up, numbers go up. Some people can't recognize why there's a disconnect, and then threads like this get made.

There's a miqo'te female and male hyur as promo art for Eternal Bond... but in game there's a homosexual couple of the same vein who ran away because of race difference. But would the latter really sell people on buying that fancy EB ceremony?

Wow, this thread picks up after like a year hiatus and people are confused by it, it seems. Let me try and answer what has been added to the thread.

The question wasn't in regards to the jobs history in the series or irl history, but towards its depiction in FFXIV.

The classes do seem to show a bit more diversity, mostly with the races, but genders too. But the Jobs aren't bad, just skewed with the tank and healer representation.

I can't change the title, but it's not misleading. And it doesn't matter it was just a hypothetical. But given the current issues going on, it does show a bit of a bias that might exist. Not saying one does, it just points that way.

The simple explanation is this: when a new job is added a new Warrior of Light is added to the current XIV party. That new warrior is going to be the representative for that job. All of the artwork for the tanks depict a male character and all of the artwork for healers depicts female characters. My question was, would people like to see a male character represent the next healer job and a female represent the next tank job. (This only includes official artwork, cgi and supplementary artwork do not count.)

It doesn't matter, it was just a hypothetical.

It's not a troll thread, though I can see why people might think that given the current issues.

Why am I goofy? Maybe I'm Donald?

The question wasnt about masculinity or femininity, but the actual character that represents the job, should they be male or female.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

My question was, would people like to see a male character represent the next healer job and a female represent the next tank job. (This only includes official artwork, cgi and supplementary artwork do not count.)...

The question wasnt about masculinity or femininity, but the actual character that represents the job, should they be male or female.

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To be direct, no. But anyone trying to explain their answer is going to have to go into what is masculine and feminine. It is in the nature of the question you ask.

To be elaborate about why I feel that way is because it's not a problem that with official artwork tanks are always represented by males, and healers are always represented by females. SJW types will make it a problem though because they will spew a bunch of nonsense that these representations enforce gender roles along with perpetuating patriarchy and female oppression. I feel this way because today's heroism in entertainment is overrun with Mary Sues and it's practically a crime to be a red-blooded male, oozing with masculinity. FFXIV's tanks being represented by a male with an axe bigger than he is, puts a foot in the ground and says, "we ain't having it!".

Healers being represented by females is the same. Just on the female side of the spectrum. It really is ok for females to be feminine, nurturing, supportive, and pretty, which is how healers have always been represented in the realm of Final Fantasy. These are qualities not weaknesses, and homogenous to females so it only makes sense that healers are always represented by them. They are strong, and it is erroneous to equate strength only with how much a person can lift or how hard they can hit.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

The gear sets for healers and tanks seem to follow this trend as well. There are very few (if any) feminine tank outfits and masculine healer outfits. I'd like a more form fitting and elegant looking plate set at some point because it sucks to have leather and cloth be the only feminine options. People playing male healer characters probably have similar complaints too.

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uhh tanks in this game use different defense based armor, and i would say its neither masculine or feminine. Your vision of elegance is subjective, i would say pld armor is extremely elegant

Like wise healers use cloth armor, and there is nothing particularly feminine about male healer gear.

I didn't realize people were already expecting Dancer all the way back in April of 2018, maybe even since the Stormblood Lyse reveal.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

You know what would happen if you wear a "form fitted" female "boob armor" into actual battle?
You would die from the first hit to your chest area because your armor sits like a wedge on your sternum.

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I find this video to be interesting regarding this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KHz0qWQA9I

Welcome to game design (not just FFXIV). EVERYTHING is super stereotyped

i was kind of hoping the dancer af gear would look like this

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20110706085756

but who knows, that might be normal dnc gear

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Originally Posted by Gemina

To be direct, no. But anyone trying to explain their answer is going to have to go into what is masculine and feminine. It is in the nature of the question you ask.

To be elaborate about why I feel that way is because it's not a problem that with official artwork tanks are always represented by males, and healers are always represented by females. SJW types will make it a problem though because they will spew a bunch of nonsense that these representations enforce gender roles along with perpetuating patriarchy and female oppression. I feel this way because today's heroism in entertainment is overrun with Mary Sues and it's practically a crime to be a red-blooded male, oozing with masculinity. FFXIV's tanks being represented by a male with an axe bigger than he is, puts a foot in the ground and says, "we ain't having it!".

Healers being represented by females is the same. Just on the female side of the spectrum. It really is ok for females to be feminine, nurturing, supportive, and pretty, which is how healers have always been represented in the realm of Final Fantasy. These are qualities not weaknesses, and homogenous to females so it only makes sense that healers are always represented by them. They are strong, and it is erroneous to equate strength only with how much a person can lift or how hard they can hit.

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Bless you and your response. While it may be more than what the initial question asked for, you answered it beautifully.

Truth be told, I don't care/mind who the next "Warrior of Light" is, mostly because this game doesn't restrict you from playing who/how you want. I just posed the question mostly because I am a male healer and would like more representation, and because as a whole, encompassing all games/genres, male healers tend to be sparse. Looking at Final Fantasy alone, we've only really had two "confirmed" male healers (Minwu & Hope) and they span 11 games apart; and there are other factors that work against them as well, but that's not so important now.

It was just curiosity that made me ask. Granted the current debate might skew things a bit, but that's all it was, curiosity.

Will SE heat my coffee as well? It got cold.