Haurchefant Memorial at a recent 30th anniversary event

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

Well going by Thordan EX the WoL atleast believes it could kill them or com close to it. If I remember right it also gives a healing debuff.

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The problem remains that the ex version of the fight is always the imagined one. The one in the story is the true fight against them and there we beat all of them solo. And the problem with the attack was that it would not follow a person so simply jumping out of the way would have been enough. Seeing how we are somehow able to see AOE markers and other stuff thanks to our echo it feels cheap that we do not have that in cutscenes..because if we would have our Fight!WoL instead of cutscene!Wol we simply would have dodged. But because Yoshida/story demanded it we stood there like a newbie. How the same person can beat the primal version of Thordan and all his knights alone is kinda a mystery..

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Originally Posted by Alleo

The one in the story is the true fight against them and there we beat all of them solo. And the problem with the attack was that it would not follow a person so simply jumping out of the way would have been enough.

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The thing is, ultimately it doesn't matter what maybe theoretically would have happened if we got hit by that attack IF gameplay mechanics of it apply to the 'real' version of what happened. (And if "what really happened" didn't involve seven other people then I don't think you can make story assumptions based on the normal-version gameplay fight.)

Regardless of what it would have done, Haurchefant acted on what he thought it was going to do to us. What it ultimately did to him.

That cutscene, I would argue, is more proof of what the spell "really" does than how it affects you in gameplay where a huge range of should-be-fatal attacks just cost you a few hit points. I would always consider cutscenes and dialogue to be more reliable sources for the intended version of events.


Also, having gone back and rewatched the cutscene, I think the spear attack is one of those things where it really would have played out a lot quicker than we are shown - but we see the different elements of what happened - Haurchefant shielding you, the cracking shield, reaction shots - spread out so the viewer can follow what happened.



For what it's worth, the true version of the Thordan fight for me is my own somewhat fanficcy one with my whole party of alt characters fighting him together, and when Zephirin tried to cast that spear attack again, the tank lobbed Haurchefant's broken shield at him to ruin the cast. And just for a moment, they could see him there... Specifically I'd come up with that scenario after I'd got to the credits for Heavensward and was wishing we'd seen him just one more time, because it seemed like it should have happened but it hadn't.

But it was still slow enough for Haurchefant to shout at us, we stopping to look back, him running towards us and then shielding us and then it took a few seconds until the shield breaks while we still stand there watching. Its just frustating that this happens to the same person that before that survived a whole dungeon with them without getting any wound and after that is able to defeat Thordan and his knights which are stated to be the most difficult of the primals to that point, completely alone too and again without a single wound.

At least with Ysayle we were on a flying ship with a huge airship constantly firing at us. The amount of attacks and the small space would have made a fight impossible, and us even being able to damage such a ship would be kinda impossible too so it makes sense that this situation was bad. I mean we could still probably just teleport away but that would leave our comrades in danger and a falling ship would certainly mean death for them. This scene makes sense and thus I could kinda accept the sacrifice. Also her actions changed the story because Garlemald was forced to land their ship there, which might otherwise be used in battle which might have changed the outcome to the worse for us later.

His death changed nothing at all. Injuring him or him throwing us to the side would have had the same overall consequenes. For example a bad wound would have stopped us from following Thordan and he might not have been able to fight anymore thus he would have been pulled out of the overall plot, his brother would have needed to grow up and this might have created an interesting character development without creating a situation where your character needs to act way too slow for it to happen. And we would still be angry at Thordan, would still feel bad for it since we could make this our fault. And we would finally have a character that has a lasting wound that hinders him. Not like Raubahn or Ysthola who are not really that hindered by it.

But thats probaly in the end all subjective. Its just kinda interesting that his death is probably the only one in my gaming career that I cant get over with because its just so stupid imo. He is also the only character on other forums that has such a big amount of posts with people saying its too soon or that they miss him. You wont see that for other characters that much.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

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While I agree 100% with what you said, now when I think it over....
I think Haurchefant leaped to shield us cause he looked at us as hero but not as an invincible WoL. So maybe he thought that spear would kill us, even if it wouldn't had.
He did rush to help us when we fought Shiva and he was in random other battles with us, maybe he genuinely didn't have a full grasp on our potential and just thought of us as really powerful adventurer who shouldn't fight alone and constantly press their luck like that.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

But it was still slow enough for Haurchefant to shout at us, we stopping to look back, him running towards us and then shielding us and then it took a few seconds until the shield breaks while we still stand there watching. Its just frustating that this happens to the same person that before that survived a whole dungeon with them without getting any wound and after that is able to defeat Thordan and his knights which are stated to be the most difficult of the primals to that point, completely alone too and again without a single wound.

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That's what I mean about it probably happening faster than what we are shown. I figure that it must have been fast enough that by the time we had turned around and realised what he was shouting to us for, he had already moved in to shield us (and standing behind the paladin with his shield up is probably the safest place to be! especially if you might still be unsure where the attack is coming from or if there's another one on the way). But the shield cracked before we could realise or act on it.

Also isn't the Vault one of those places where the official plan is that we go in with "a team of fellow adventurers" while the other actual characters are rescuing Aymeric? Alternately if we did go through the Vault solo then maybe we *were* wounded or out of mana or something that meant we were more vulnerable than usual.

I just feel like it makes more sense that if my character didn't act in that moment it must be because she couldn't, so there must have been a reason why not, and "it happened too fast" seems like the simplest explanation.

So looking through a vid of the fight again I believe the attack is "Spear of Fury". Its a follow-up of Holy Shield Bash, which stuns a marked healer and the rest of the party/some of them have to get between the healer and the attacker to prevent Spear of Fury from killing them. It does also give an infirmiry debuff that reduces healing. Now again this is the EX fight, but one could easily say that this is how the WoL feels about the attack (if it is the attack atleast), and that maybe if more people could help/they were able to help defend against it instead of being the one defended, they could have come out of the attack with everyone alive. The infirmiry debuff of course would be how they were unable to save Haurchefant's life regardless of whether they were a healer or not, the attack "prevents" it.


When it comes down to it though we can't dodge all attacks. Plenty of non-EX attacks are "fast" enough or large enough to hit us regardless. And all kinds of shows/games/media love to use slow-mo on things that are actually happening quite fast.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

His death changed nothing at all. Injuring him or him throwing us to the side would have had the same overall consequenes. For example a bad wound would have stopped us from following Thordan and he might not have been able to fight anymore thus he would have been pulled out of the overall plot, his brother would have needed to grow up and this might have created an interesting character development without creating a situation where your character needs to act way too slow for it to happen. And we would still be angry at Thordan, would still feel bad for it since we could make this our fault. And we would finally have a character that has a lasting wound that hinders him. Not like Raubahn or Ysthola who are not really that hindered by it.

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I had to give this a bit of thought.

His death-or-survival might not have changed the overall shape of the main plot, but would lead to a very different plot thread if he was alive but permanently injured. I don't know if it would be better, just different, and sad in another way.

Also,

if he survives then that changes at least one important plot point: saving Estinien. As it happens in the game, it seems that it required the involvement of Ysayle and Haurchefant to remove the eyes from his armour. That would have to play out differently if Haurchefant isn't dead! Would they have killed off a different character we care about to have that second spirit present? Skipped a really wonderful plot point? That was such a perfect final moment for both of them.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

He is also the only character on other forums that has such a big amount of posts with people saying its too soon or that they miss him. You wont see that for other characters that much.

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I don't think that's necessarily a reason that he shouldn't have died though - just a sign that it was effective storytelling. (And it's kind of self-fulfilling, I guess? People aren't going to miss him if he didn't die...)

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Tanking is the role I'm least comfortable with in this game, but something that appealed to me about it was the ability to 'come to people's rescue' in the overworld if they're getting chased or overwhelmed by monsters. I had to do that last night, for the first time in a while - dashed into the middle of battle, Fortemps shield and all, and realised - I'm doing his thing. Showing up halfway through and turning the tide of battle. My character is carrying her friend's legacy. It's a lovely thought, and one that wouldn't have happened without the sadness that makes it something significant in the first place.

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I also just really like the mental image of him standing on the cliff and looking out over the city.

(Francel has some nice dialogue related to this as well, if you talk to him post-Heavensward.)