This whole Meta Party thing is hurting me. x_x

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pastahnak

Just play what you want, it's why I main red mage and love playing all the healers because I feel comfortable playing them. If you feel comfortable playing a meta job than that's a bonus for you but it's not required by any means.

---

Good luck finding a group outside of prog with a caster. Good luck finding a group full stop with a BLM.

As a moderator on one of the largest recruitment discords, the amount of groups looking for a caster are very few and far between. Yet the number of casters that are still looking for groups after protracted periods of time is large - tanks/healers/melee's/ranged all get snapped up quickly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NoctusT

epic post

---

As someone that just started a static, and as someone who is switching to RDM for the purposes of said static, it is comforting to know that people still understand this concept.

in my humblest opinion, meta only applies to games that have a plethora of options available to you. For example, Magic the Gathering has clear "meta" cards. A game that has like... 15 options, does not actually have a real meta, especially when every one of those options has passed the test of the hardest trial in the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Good luck finding a group outside of prog with a caster. Good luck finding a group full stop with a BLM.

As a moderator on one of the largest recruitment discords, the amount of groups looking for a caster are very few and far between. Yet the number of casters that are still looking for groups after protracted periods of time is large - tanks/healers/melee's/ranged all get snapped up quickly.

---

Then they can find people who take raiding less seriously than people who want full meta teams. If you are someone who raids seriously you are probably someone who can get good at any job in the game and will gravitate towards the meta. I'm speaking from a more casual point of view as that's what the majority of people are and what I'm assuming the OP is as well.

As said before, meta doesn't apply to you. In fact it doesn't apply to the vast majority of people. If you're good with your job, you will be a useful asset, whether you are RDM, MCH, SAM.

People make wayyyyy too much of a big deal over meta, just play what you like, and be good at it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RainDurell

As said before, meta doesn't apply to you. In fact it doesn't apply to the vast majority of people. If you're good with your job, you will be a useful asset, whether you are RDM, MCH, SAM.

People make wayyyyy too much of a big deal over meta, just play what you like, and be good at it.

---

Meta applies to everyone, and everyone should care.

Being 'viable' is an incredibly low standard, for starters. If a Job wasn't viable on implementation, it literally means it does not work. That the Jobs work is a base level, bare-minimum expectation of the developers. Yet that's pretty much been the entire defense all these years. It's okay because it works? I don't think so.

The real goal shouldn't be that your game works, that's a requirement. It should be to get everyone as close to the center as possible, while also remaining unique and fun. That goal should remain intact regardless of if a 'meta' has or hasn't formed, or how effective it is.

And that being said, even trying to avoid dramatics, the meta is pretty strong. You're stacking basically some of the best support elements in the game, as well as some of the best damage augments in the game, making your party strong at both survival and offense. There's really no detriment to running the godcomp; It excels at everything. There are very clear, very tangible detriments to dropping any of the meta Jobs for others, however. It's not enough to where there should be riots or anything. You can always make your own party to clear things. It is enough to make the Job feel unrewarding and lackluster though, and I don't think that's fun.

This game didn't get a massive revival because people rolled over and said 1.0 was fine because it 'worked'. They were unsatisfied, and they spoke up. I'd say it's important people talk about this more.

By "it works" I don't mean "you can press buttons and it won't crash", I mean it by that it's a viable job to clear ANY content with.
I'm not saying preferable comps don't exist, but the amount of attention your giving it is dumb, it's NOT as important as you think it is. The difference between running a meta comp vs a non-meta comp isn't that dramatic that it completely nullifies "off-meta" jobs, you're all acting as if having a meta comp results is resulting in 2x as fast clears or something.

Tldr meta doesn't matter unless you're running world prog

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pastahnak

Then they can find people who take raiding less seriously than people who want full meta teams. If you are someone who raids seriously you are probably someone who can get good at any job in the game and will gravitate towards the meta. I'm speaking from a more casual point of view as that's what the majority of people are and what I'm assuming the OP is as well.

---

Should an entire role be excluded from serious raiding though? It doesn't excuse the current situation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RainDurell

By "it works" I don't mean "you can press buttons and it won't crash", I mean it by that it's a viable job to clear ANY content with.
I'm not saying preferable comps don't exist, but the amount of attention your giving it is dumb, it's NOT as important as you think it is. The difference between running a meta comp vs a non-meta comp isn't that dramatic that it completely nullifies "off-meta" jobs, you're all acting as if having a meta comp results is resulting in 2x as fast clears or something.

Tldr meta doesn't matter unless you're running world prog

---

Yes it does matter. It matters socially when looking for groups and it also matters performance wise - running meta comps leads to more raid dps which can be important to hit enrages in lower skilled groups. The old meta comp of MCH + BRD also provided much more mana to the party for lower skilled healers.

This whole "the meta doesn't matter for non world prog" needs to go back to /r/ffxiv and die in a fire because its one of the most idiotic statements to come out of this community.

Level all jobs, play the job and gear up the current job that is meta at this current tier/patch, if you want to progress in the raiding content if you are running it effectively and within the current cycle before the next level comes out. That is the simplest answer I can give, next tier it might be something different. Jump ship and gear one of the new meta comps.

The above paragraph is plain and simple and blunt. Not a nice answer and I will get flamed but hey it is what it is.

The nice answer would be, forget the meta and find a group that does not worry about such things and runs the content at their own pace and what jobs they choose to run as. I am in the same boat I run with a group that runs the content and tries to clear it even if it takes us longer as long as we finish it and completed it with the gear drops that go with it, in the current cycle that is.

The decision is yours to make in the end. GL to you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Faeon

Level all jobs, play the job and gear up the current job that is meta at this current tier/patch, if you want to progress in the raiding content if you are running it effectively and within the current cycle before the next level comes out. That is the simplest answer I can give, next tier it might be something different. Jump ship and gear one of the new meta comps.

---

Which would be a fair enough comment to make if the meta switched up every patch and at least one class of every role is meta. Unfortunately, that isn't the case whatsoever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Faeon

Level all jobs, play the job and gear up the current job that is meta at this current tier/patch, if you want to progress in the raiding content if you are running it effectively and within the current cycle before the next level comes out. That is the simplest answer I can give, next tier it might be something different. Jump ship and gear one of the new meta comps.

---

Or just level up a Ninja, SE will never allow something to happen to their dearest.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Should an entire role be excluded from serious raiding though? It doesn't excuse the current situation.



Yes it does matter. It matters socially when looking for groups and it also matters performance wise - running meta comps leads to more raid dps which can be important to hit enrages in lower skilled groups. The old meta comp of MCH + BRD also provided much more mana to the party for lower skilled healers.

This whole "the meta doesn't matter for non world prog" needs to go back to /r/ffxiv and die in a fire because its one of the most idiotic statements to come out of this community.

---

The fact that you say "in lower skilled groups" backs up what the other have said about "meta" not mattering to most players. Sorry but if you have to have a meta comp to clear something, you shouldn't be clearing it. Not to mention if a player is simply better on a non meta job then a meta job, you would be hurting your chances of clearing the content by forcing them to switch due to the fact that they will be "less skilled" on the meta job.

Meta does effect things outside of speed kills and world first particularly when you look to join pf groups for extreme and savage. It takes me longer to find a spot for samurai.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DGladius

Meta does effect things outside of speed kills and world first particularly when you look to join pf groups for extreme and savage. It takes me longer to find a spot for samurai.

---

To be fair Samurai is a very popular class so while the lockouts are a problem, they are not that common in my experience, I think most PFs are locking your class out because there is already one SAM and LB gain punishment can make or break a fight (especially something like Byakko EX that is LB cheesed by everyone and their mothers).

However I agree with you that meta makes alot of difference for us who are trying to clear the tier on PUGs, cleared OS6 with a BLM, a SAM and a RDM on my group, but we had problems with enrage and it was tight to the point where we could only afford one death (making RDM's res basically useless) or we hit enrage for sure, meta comps bring more DPS allowing for more mistakes in those scenarios.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veliena

The fact that you say "in lower skilled groups" backs up what the other have said about "meta" not mattering to most players. Sorry but if you have to have a meta comp to clear something, you shouldn't be clearing it. Not to mention if a player is simply better on a non meta job then a meta job, you would be hurting your chances of clearing the content by forcing them to switch due to the fact that they will be "less skilled" on the meta job.

---

It doesn't at all. Maybe you should re-read my posts. I'm saying that by taking stronger classes you can bring more to your raid team no matter what the skill leve..

The ability to clear something doesn't make things balanced. There is the time taken to clear the fight - not just in the encounter itself, but during progression.

Don't get me wrong, to some extent its true that player comfort is important - but if a player is good with one job, then they can put in the time and get skilled with another job. And the social aspect of players looking for groups is silly at times (rejecting a high skilled BLM/SAM for a bad MCH for instance). But at the end of the day, that's going to happen whatever SE do.

But making sure an entire role is excluded, not just for one patch, but for years is absolutely unacceptable. And having NIN/BRD/MCH/DRG dominate for so long is unacceptable too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

It doesn't at all. Maybe you should re-read my posts. I'm saying that by taking stronger classes you can bring more to your raid team no matter what the skill leve..

The ability to clear something doesn't make things balanced. There is the time taken to clear the fight - not just in the encounter itself, but during progression.

Don't get me wrong, to some extent its true that player comfort is important - but if a player is good with one job, then they can put in the time and get skilled with another job. And the social aspect of players looking for groups is silly at times (rejecting a high skilled BLM/SAM for a bad MCH for instance). But at the end of the day, that's going to happen whatever SE do.

But making sure an entire role is excluded, not just for one patch, but for years is absolutely unacceptable. And having NIN/BRD/MCH/DRG dominate for so long is unacceptable too.

---

Ok I do see what you're saying. There is a bigger issue with this then simply making things viable. If you move to make everything as viable as everything else, you lose class/job diversity. Currently no 2 jobs really play the same, and so what they can and cannot do is different. If we balance them more against each other we would most likely lose that diversity from every job.

I don't agree with how SE balances the jobs, only balancing them against the other jobs in their role, but I don't want them to try to achieve a great balance at the cost of diversity.

What I would suggest as a fix for this, is to make the raids larger. Say 12 man. a 3rd tank, 3rd healer, and 2 more dps. This may offset some of the issues. I could be wrong but I do know that with larger groups, generally, more mistakes can be made by individual players and you can still kill the boss. This may not be true in ffxiv but it might be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veliena

Ok I do see what you're saying. There is a bigger issue with this then simply making things viable. If you move to make everything as viable as everything else, you lose class/job diversity.

---

Currently no 2 jobs really play the same, and so what they can and cannot do is different. If we balance them more against each other we would most likely lose that diversity from every job.

I don't agree with how SE balances the jobs, only balancing them against the other jobs in their role, but I don't want them to try to achieve a great balance at the cost of diversity.

What I would suggest as a fix for this, is to make the raids larger. Say 12 man. a 3rd tank, 3rd healer, and 2 more dps. This may offset some of the issues. I could be wrong but I do know that with larger groups, generally, more mistakes can be made by individual players and you can still kill the boss. This may not be true in ffxiv but it might be.[/QUOTE]

That is not what I have said. Please stop putting words into my mouth. I have always said that the aim SE should have is:

1) To have at least one class in every role as optimal
2) The optimal comp should change depending on the fight
3) The optimal comp should not stay as the same 4 classes for more than one patch, let alone for years.

You do not need to sacrifice class/job diversity to achieve that. You actually strengthen diverse classes, strengthen non meta playstyles and tinker with fight design.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Llugen

What is REALLY hurting you (and everyone, for that matter) is just how drastic the difference between META and non-META comps really is.

---

But it's not drastic? Player skill is vastly more influential than meta, than gear, anything. A team of amazing players with like....I dunno, a 2x DRK 4x RDM team will still down a fight a hell of a lot faster than a team of average players in an "optimal" composition. Having desired jobs in your party doesn't automatically make everyone do more overall party damage than a team of less desired jobs. How many people do you think actively think about their buff-alignment optimised DPS rotation they copied from some elite guild web page and think "hang on, these randoms aren't getting those buffs up in a way that fits my opener/rotatoin, I'd better adjust it"? That's the tip of the iceberg, in most content people are only focused on what they're doing themselves. Hell, if anything low utility jobs like SAM and BLM are ideal if you're with such people since you generally don't care what that pug NIN and DRG are up to, you're an awesome damage machine that will leave them all in the dust more than you would on a meta job.

Of course there is discrepancy between jobs. Their personal damage is all in the same reasonable ballpark, which is great, but only the tactical management of utility escalates them; THAT is when "meta" tactics begins to make a noticeable difference. I still wouldn't call it drastic though, even though it's objectively optimal in an ideal scenario. So while yes, some jobs function better in optimised play than others, the community also needs to stop flailing their arms around going "omg SE/Yoshi don't know how to balance!!" and acting like the difference is...well, drastic. It's got a hell of a lot more balance than the vast majority of online games I've played in the last 20 years, that's for sure. That's not an excuse to say that people can't complain about how their job functions, but rather a reason for people not to overreact about playing with others who are on a job that offers 0.5% less RDPS than an alternative when their buffs (or lack of) are perfectly synced with others playing 100% optimally.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RainDurell

By "it works" I don't mean "you can press buttons and it won't crash", I mean it by that it's a viable job to clear ANY content with.

---

And I mean what I said. It's not a goal, it's a requirement that any Job can clear any content in this game. If certain Jobs couldn't clear content, it'd be an insult to call them, "Working". All of that to say, it's the principle that you shouldn't applaud anyone for meeting, or going slightly past the bare-minimum expectations.

I feel it's fair to say all of the above, given WAR launch in 2.0, PLD in 3.0, and the continued dominance of NIN, DRG, and (arguably) BRD/MCH. It's not that the meta is "So much better" than other compositions. It's that most of those Jobs are given multiple strengths with no discernible weaknesses, while other Jobs are left in the dust, usually for an entire expansion.

It's not about viability. It's not about the 'meta' being broken, or too strong. It's about feeling rewarded for the Job you want to play. It's about feeling good for the strength and benefits you can offer to the party. Unfortunately, some Jobs just can't experience that right now, and I think it's fair that those Jobs feel burned by all of this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nominous

Snipped...

---

META is about how you class falls on the spectrum of viability, and its effects on the gameplay of others. The classes highest up in the hierarchy within the roles they fit form a META group. For DPS classes, Utility is Key. The fact that all classes are viable doesn't matter - the classes don't all have equal viability - and META is the manifestation of this fact. It does matter - it's a clear indication of imbalances within the game - either in class balance, or in content design. Players make judgement calls based on those disparities, and it manifests in their group preferences. Having a requirement that any class be able to clear any content in the game is fairly useless, in the grand scheme of things.

It's why balance is such an important aspect of these games. You end up discriminating against certain classes if you get the class balance or content design wrong (using that term loosely).

META is a thing. It has a lot of implications on players' gameplay, and culture within the game. Players coming into the game may also choose classes to play based largely on their standing on the spectrum of viability. This is called "Flavor of the Month," and it's one of the biggest implications of content design or class balance issues in a game.

The fact that Class A is viable does not matter, at all, if Class B is seen as better by the community. People will naturally prefer Class B over Class A, and may even wait longer for a Class B to ask admission into their group/raid. The best way to mitigate this, is through better class balancing and content design. The community is as much at fault for this as the developers are, but you can't really blame them. It's normal human behavior.

As these games get more and more "competitive," this has actually generally worsened over the years.

It only takes two things to shake up the meta. Give BRD/MCH the piercing debuff on Straight Shot and Gauss Round respectively (would say Hot Shot but that's only 1 cast per minute atm and I doubt SE wants it lasting that long), and nerf Trick Attack's Vulnerability Up potency to 5-6%. The emnity changes to Diversion have weakened the value of Shadewalker enough that most groups are fine without it.

Good long term changes would be moving the vul up debuffs given by Contagion/Radiant Shield to Tri-Disaster (replacing Ruination with a 5% Magic/Physical Vul Up or Vul Down debuff, according to what pet you have out) while removing its reset mechanic, and allowing Brotherhood to proc off of spells and apply its bonus to all targets, with its values decreased to reflect that. But these things won't shake up the meta as it is.

They could also move the vulnerability to rouse tbh though that would make it too similar to hypercharge in a way

Yeah, it would be very similar. Plus it wouldn't work with the Bahamut phase without some awkward optimization that no one really wants to go through.

Just delete the vulnerability completely. Add in some QoL changes to BLM, and some long duration single target buffs that don't benefit burst classes more than sustained DPS classes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Just delete the vulnerability completely. Add in some QoL changes to BLM, and some long duration single target buffs that don't benefit burst classes more than sustained DPS classes.

---

This right here is how class harmonization begins. Once you take something from a class, what stops the next person from asking that they remove the buff blm bring because you HAVE to have a blm in every raid?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veliena

This right here is how class harmonization begins. Once you take something from a class, what stops the next person from asking that they remove the buff blm bring because you HAVE to have a blm in every raid?

---

Except that BLM brings no buff whatsoever and this is exactly the problem?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lina_Slayer

Except that BLM brings no buff whatsoever and this is exactly the problem?

---

Yes but asking for other jobs to lose their buffs while giving blm a buff is counter productive. Then we're simply right where we are now but with different jobs.

The best way to balance the debuff situation out would be to give a Magic vulnerability to healers, and a physical vulnerability to tanks, then remove them from the DPS classes. Every group has at least one of each of those. That would solve the issue, since neither of those archetypes are putting out DPS that is out of balance, and their job is to support, anyways.

This would balance the debuff situation out, without classes' communities constantly calling for nerfs based on them.

Then, you can simply balance the numbers that DPS classes are putting out, and work on refining their gameplay. Since these debuffs are almost always going to be available in group play, balance calculations can assume they will be available (the players with access to them still need to learn how to use them optimally, though).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veliena

This right here is how class harmonization begins. Once you take something from a class, what stops the next person from asking that they remove the buff blm bring because you HAVE to have a blm in every raid?

---

There is literally no thought process given to how almost all the vulnerabilities are applied in game.

Removing them has almost zero impact on gameplay (Or, better, putting them on tanks)

I main MCH, how do you think I feel? But never been lectured on how it sucks or its DpS is low yet. Also never been requested to get another class. I love MCH and Its fun and that's all that matters to me really! If the community is letting you down, join a FC

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jirah

I main MCH, how do you think I feel? But never been lectured on how it sucks or its DpS is low yet. Also never been requested to get another class. I love MCH and Its fun and that's all that matters to me really! If the community is letting you down, join a FC

---

I was under the impression MCH was in a pretty good spot. They are a meta job lol...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veliena

This right here is how class harmonization begins. Once you take something from a class, what stops the next person from asking that they remove the buff blm bring because you HAVE to have a blm in every raid?

---

Except for the fact there is no competing buff that can be used as an alternative, and furthermore, a buff like that just means that running BRD+MCH is still a thing - that is the problem that means casters aren't being taken. You can't moan about class homogenization (I assume that's what you meant by harmonization) while supporting one of the major reasons Casters have been outside of the meta. Its literally a buff that buffs three classes at the same time which discourages other damage types being used.

Now, if you was to give a similar buff for other damage types and balance out the damage types, then sure. But right now the buff is gamebreaking.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jirah

I main MCH, how do you think I feel? But never been lectured on how it sucks or its DpS is low yet. Also never been requested to get another class. I love MCH and Its fun and that's all that matters to me really! If the community is letting you down, join a FC

---

I find it hard to feel sympathy for a class that has largely been either strong or overpowered since its creation and has never dropped out of the meta until maybe now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Except for the fact there is no competing buff that can be used as an alternative, and furthermore, a buff like that just means that running BRD+MCH is still a thing - that is the problem that means casters aren't being taken. You can't moan about class homogenization (I assume that's what you meant by harmonization) while supporting one of the major reasons Casters have been outside of the meta. Its literally a buff that buffs three classes at the same time which discourages other damage types being used.

Now, if you was to give a similar buff for other damage types and balance out the damage types, then sure. But right now the buff is gamebreaking.

---

yes thats what I meant.

Now the issue I have here, is you didn't ask or mention blm getting a buff to compete with them, you asked for their buff to be removed, and blm given a buff for the group. Pick a direction.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veliena

yes thats what I meant.

Now the issue I have here, is you didn't ask or mention blm getting a buff to compete with them, you asked for their buff to be removed, and blm given a buff for the group. Pick a direction.

---

I've repeatedly said that BLM needs its personal damage increased to compete. I did not ask for BLM to be given a buff for the group. If anything, i've asked for more long duration low potency single target raid buffs for sustained dps classes so that the meta isn't centered around short duration high potency raid buffs that stack together with burst classes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

I've repeatedly said that BLM needs its personal damage increased to compete. I did not ask for BLM to be given a buff for the group. If anything, i've asked for more long duration low potency single target raid buffs for sustained dps classes so that the meta isn't centered around short duration high potency raid buffs that stack together with burst classes.

---

You realize BLM has the highest dps in sigmascape yes?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veliena

You realize BLM has the highest dps in sigmascape yes?

---

You realize there is a major difference between personal dps and raid dps?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Terkhev

You realize there is a major difference between personal dps and raid dps?

---

Yes, but as he said, he wants blm to get a buff, not a raid buff. What other buff does he want? If they already do the highest damage, and he doesn't want a buff that helps the raid, then wtf does he want?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veliena

Yes, but as he said, he wants blm to get a buff, not a raid buff. What other buff does he want? If they already do the highest damage, and he doesn't want a buff that helps the raid, then wtf does he want?

---

He wants other class buffs to help sustained DPS class more than the currently status where the buffs last for too little a time and benefit high burst classes (and it is not only DPS classes, WAR for example also reap the benefits of our currently raid buffs meta).

He already said what he wants. A personal damage increase. It's the only thing that makes sense for a pure, selfish dps. Same as samurai. If they want those jobs to be selfish, they simply need more damage.

"Meta Parties" is the most laughable aspect of this game. Log analysis and raid fight break down tells you that any class within the roles is 100% capable of clearing the content. The raiding content in this game is not WoW's Mythic progression where you are class stacking for that extra 1%, and that 1%, because gear is not flowing like a waterfall, is the difference between wipe and clear.

If parties or FCs are insisting on the meta, you are better off not joining either. All it shows is the recruiter / leaders ignorance and / or they're trying to recruit a 'slightly better' class because the others in the group aren't playing to their potential.

Play what you enjoy. Any class can clear the hardest content in the game. Don't let this player ignorance bring you down.