Dear PLDs

I have all healers at 70, DRK at 70 and WAR/PLD at 62 (ish).
From a healer perspective it can be a bit irksome for a tank to use Clemency when you have various options available/excog on them because it does convey a lack of trust (I mean, I don't play limbo with the tank's HP but I do regularly leave it to get below 50%). Obviously there are times when it is needed and I don't dispute that (I mean, we all have lapses, sometimes everything's going to pot in rabanastre or something and sometimes I forget to heal. Sorry! DX).
However I am quite hypocritical in that, when I play a tank, I get very nervous when I'm reaching 50% and get worse as I get lower ^^".
So while I don't like PLDs using it while I'm a healer, I now understand how scary it can be and I'm not as bothered by it.

I use Clemency cuz it looks purty! :) I also use it as soon as i see any HP drop! =D When im running around gathering a pull I stop every time my hp dips to clemency, even if sprint is still on! =D

I'm quite a bit late to this discussion, but I'll add my two gil's worth.

Sometimes, by virtue of when my party makeup consists of two casters, I'll naturally pull larger in dungeons. If you see me start using Clemency, it's not because I don't trust you or are trying to make you redundant (though the former has admittedly happened on occasion); quite the contrary, it's because I'm trying to take some of the pressure off of you, especially when your hands are tied doing something else.

My number one priority is staying alive and keeping everything mad at me, not you. ^^

I will give you this parting advice, though: If you see a PLD using Clemency in a dungeon, please don't take it personally. If they overuse it, just quietly laugh at their folly and go on. :D

I do, but neveron myself...use it on another member is a great when healer is busy raising people.

and joke side of me telling me....my hp has to be over 95% all the time XDXDXDXD....PTSD....

PSHH! YOU DON’T PAY MY SU-

[v o t e k i c k e d]

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

PLDs resposne
"Dear healer, please then heal and not wait till our health drops to 10%, thank you".

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WHM response
"Dear PLD, I have Benediction and I've been told I should use it to give the tank a spook and thus must let you drop to that 10% if not lower"

"lol animation lag sorry"

If they want to cast clemency then you just get to dps more.
Worst case is you overheal once in a while.
I mean in some situations it is awesome.
A pld spamming clemency so a AST can spam gravity is one example.
Also to help mitigate tank busters so they aren't so scary.

I dunno, I don't really see it except in crap parties or when we get a troll healer that likes to let the tank's HP dip lower than they're comfortable with a PUG group. Personally I distrust anyone I don't actually know. As healer, I assume tank don't know shite about their cooldowns, or DPS are gonna do something stupid in the time it takes me to blink, so I keep it above 75% (dip toward 50% to avoid overhealing, but neeever below that). As Tank I assume I've got a nitwit healer watching netflix. Too many time I figure "naw it's fine, they'll use bene aaaany second now... right?" And then I die because my cooldowns were long gone and they weren't paying attention. :P

I understand why people actually good at their jobs would feel offended, but you gotta understand these people don't know you from a hole in the wall. There's enough horror story experiences to explain why they don't trust you.

Basically: don't take it personally lol.

ppl seem to forget that requiescat buffs clemency too, paladin is the 3rd healer once a minute!!!!

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Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

ppl seem to forget that requiescat buffs clemency too, paladin is the 3rd healer once a minute!!!!

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Only while mp is above 80% which is for the first cast only.

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Originally Posted by Thela

Only while mp is above 80% which is for the first cast only.

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Requiescat gives a buff when used at >80% MP. That buff doesn't fall off when you go below 80% MP. All 5 Holy Spirits/Clemencies get buffed by it.

If Flash's blind effect is in full duration, it's actually semi decent to use clemency as a mini aoe threat move, in place of eclipse, if your low on TP or needing to get TP back, but dont want to use another flash. so technically clemency is more effecive at threat/healing, unless they have the TP to use single target instead, which they should single target.
The exception being the healer doesnt mind DPSing while u try to solo heal yourself for 3 GCDs.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

My PLD's at 70, my dear. It will remain dumb spinny attack however every time I refer to it, regardless.

And, amazingly enough, if you don't have confidence in your healer, healing yourself is not going to fix the problem. My healing cooldowns are there for a reason. You wasting a GCD healing yourself for a tankbuster, I've been prepared for for the past 45 seconds is not clearing content faster.

Nor is you killing the DRK during Akh Morn because you wanting to help heal wasted his Walking Dead. (Note: this happened. My friend on DRK was less than pleased.)

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so i guess clemency should just never be used unless the party is about to wipe, right?

Clemency can save you from dying and helps out your healers.

Dear WHMs, ASTs, SCHs,

Would you please STOP SPAMMING DPS ABILITIES ALLOWING US TO DIE EVERY OTHER PULL? Especially when you (or any party member) have less than 75% of your HP.

Thank you.

Your Paladin.

(Yes, I actually have this problem with healers. Stop it. If you want to DPS so much, make/play a DPS and queue.)

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

so i guess clemency should just never be used unless the party is about to wipe, right?

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You can use Clemency outside of wipe situations while also using it intelligently. You don't need to spam it on yourself unless your healer(s) is obviously struggling. You don't need to heal other party members. Use your head. And for christ sakes being below 75% does not mean you need to be topped off. HOTs are a thing. Eos/Selene is a thing. Let them serve their purpose.

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Originally Posted by Greyhawk

Dear WHMs, ASTs, SCHs,

Would you please STOP SPAMMING DPS ABILITIES ALLOWING US TO DIE EVERY OTHER PULL? Especially when you (or any party member) have less than 75% of your HP.

Thank you.

Your Paladin.

(Yes, I actually have this problem with healers. Stop it. If you want to DPS so much, make/play a DPS and queue.)

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I am signing it too with my both hands.
Too many healers is trying to be DPS, but forget to heal us and end up killing us.
Where are those so "OP" heals i hear about in that game so often?

Just heal me, none gives a damn about your dot 500 damage, i want to pull more in order to make it faster.

Why is this bad. So many healers are forced into DPSing.. A heal from the tank allows them to do more DPS...

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Originally Posted by Aniond

Why is this bad. So many healers are forced into DPSing.. A heal from the tank allows them to do more DPS...

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No one is forcing them to do anything but their role they signed up for when they joined the duty finder. If they are doing anything above and beyond, fine, but stop sacrificing your primary role in the group.

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Originally Posted by Greyhawk

No one is forcing them to do anything but their role they signed up for when they joined the duty finder. If they are doing anything above and beyond, fine, but stop sacrificing your primary role in the group.

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Well healing draws aggro so it seems perfectly acceptable from that line of thought.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

Well healing draws aggro so it seems perfectly acceptable from that line of thought.

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It will not pull the mobs from the tank who know what he is doing.

Healer should be there for heal, not for dealing damage.
Leave damage dealing to dps, they have better aoe's.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

It will not pull the mobs from the tank who know what he is doing.

Healer should be there for heal, not for dealing damage.
Leave damage dealing to dps, they have better aoe's.

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I ment in regards to PLDs using Clemancy, shoulda said that.

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Leave damage dealing to dps, they have better aoe's

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Except many of them don't. Aero III into Thin-Aired / PotM-ed Holy spam with a dose of Assize is more burst AoE DPS than most DPS jobs are capable of.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Leave damage dealing to dps, they have better aoe's.

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You can establish aggro and use your Total Eclipse and do some AoE damage to contribute there's literally no reason to spam Flash until you're blue in the face.

So... I am reading the tank forums because i was starting to tanking but... is this serious? do some players really get salty because a tank heals himself or other for a bit?

While I agree that DF plds spamming clemency isn't optimal... This is a pretty petty complaint.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

Well healing draws aggro so it seems perfectly acceptable from that line of thought.

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And that had nothing to do with what you quoted from me, and a different issue. And, the issue was originally about PLD using Clemency. That's fine, I main PLD now, DRK is trash, utter trash. So, the next time I'm at 10% health and the healer is spamming DPS Stone and Holy, because they wanna be l337 in the group, that's fine too. They can expect a healthy ear of 'WTF'.

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Originally Posted by Awful

You can establish aggro and use your Total Eclipse and do some AoE damage to contribute there's literally no reason to spam Flash until you're blue in the face.

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And unfortunately, as I've said before - with potency and damage levels being increased while tanking is being nerfed makes no sense either. Using flash x3 on a mob, one after another and still not being able to pull agro from RDMs and WHMs spamming DPS abilities doesn't justify them doing that until they are blue in the face either. I don't understand why so many DPS/heal DPS try like absolute hell to pull mobs from tanks. It's a balance, not a competition.

Holy spam is the best spam. All whms should spam that shiz in dungeons. How anyone thinks that stunning an entire pack of monsters and dealing craycray damage is 'bad' is beyond me. Its literally the embodiment of the best defense is a good offense. Freezing all monster damage while killing them, we should all be so lucky to have Holy spam whms in our dungeons.

I thought we were over the "Healers heal, tanks tank, DPS dps. Just do ur jerb" crap. Jobs have tools to do things. Use them all to do more things. Ignoring half your skill bar because 'its not my jerb' is petty, wasteful, and selfish. Whm has holy for a reason. Pld has clemency for a reason. War has shake it off for a reason. Enmity combos have more than 0 potency for a reason.

A player who uses their ENTIRE kit is better than one that doesn't. If you refuse to use your entire kit you are being bad at 'job'. Refusing to use tools your job has because of a fabricated ruleset you made up in youre head is dumb. You arbitrarily decided that healers don't do DPS, yet there are many skills your job has that do DPS. Stop applying your imaginary job template and use the jobs that are actually in the game.

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Originally Posted by Aana

Holy spam is the best spam....

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And again, as I've said - " If they are doing anything above and beyond, fine, but stop sacrificing your primary role in the group." The original post was about PLD using their healing. There's a reason for it - because the primary role of the healer is being ignored by the healer. I don't use Clemency for anything other than the healer failing, repeatedly to do their primary role. No one ever said they can't do anything else.

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Originally Posted by Greyhawk

And unfortunately, as I've said before - with potency and damage levels being increased while tanking is being nerfed makes no sense either. Using flash x3 on a mob, one after another and still not being able to pull agro from RDMs and WHMs spamming DPS abilities doesn't justify them doing that until they are blue in the face either. I don't understand why so many DPS/heal DPS try like absolute hell to pull mobs from tanks. It's a balance, not a competition.

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How is tanking being nerfed? If anything tanking hasn't changed since the Vit change and holding aggro is insanely easy, i'm not saying you should drop tank stance and rush in spamming Total Eclipse and lose threat while dying no. Good tanks establish their threat and weave in AoE damage which is especially easy for Pld as they have so many tools and great mitigation for anything really.

As for your comment on Rdms and Whms spamming and overtaking threat, unless you literally didn't Flash or use Fight or Flight on CD (which you should it's a 60 sec free damage + threat CD), then yeah you're gonna have a bad time. Use your toolkit, rotate CDs, use AoE when necessary, Clemency can still be useful if the healer messed up, all these things make Pld a great tank nor is tanking nerfed, as I play a War main and I can pull everything, Inner Release with Vengeance and Decimate everything with my Blm/Rdm/Whm and it's all dead in 15 seconds, no healing required.

I see this a lot with PLD tanks. The most annoying ones being the ones who repeatedly use it AFTER I've already started casting a cure on them, like they're trying to snipe me with their own self-heals. If you want to hit the floor THAT bad, just let me know and I'll stop healing you.

Oh, and while we're on this sort of topic, I have to mention the ones who think Divine Benison is going to cause the WHM to pull hate like its a Regen. I see tanks sitting around and they won't pull until DB wears off. This aggravates me so much, and you're 100% guaranteed to lose my comm if you do it.

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Originally Posted by Greyhawk

And unfortunately, as I've said before - with potency and damage levels being increased while tanking is being nerfed makes no sense either. Using flash x3 on a mob, one after another and still not being able to pull agro from RDMs and WHMs spamming DPS abilities doesn't justify them doing that until they are blue in the face either. I don't understand why so many DPS/heal DPS try like absolute hell to pull mobs from tanks. It's a balance, not a competition.

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Maybe I'm not understanding you properly; a PLD can't hold hate off a dps and a dpsing healer and it's the dps's and healer's fault?

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

Maybe I'm not understanding you properly; a PLD can't hold hate off a dps and a dpsing healer and it's the dps's and healer's fault?

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Yeah I'm not following either. Tank enmity is the highest it has ever been in the history of the game. Tank stances have been buffed multiple times. OP/Flash/Unleash got their enmity doubled. Shirk exists. This expansion brought enmity shedding moves to every class via cross class. Diversion just got an epic level buff. Tank stances are less punishing to use than ever (Damage penalty reduced, unchained separated, IR usable in defiance, bloodspiller in the game, among other enhancements over 2.x and 3.x).

If you loose hate to anyone for any reason besides being 40 ilvls below your DPS, there is no excuse.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

It will not pull the mobs from the tank who know what he is doing.

Healer should be there for heal, not for dealing damage.
Leave damage dealing to dps, they have better aoe's.

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You are such an entitled little baby. Healers are adventurers too, and they're there to kick ass and clear dungeons. I can't count the number of times that my dumb ass has been saved over the years from an overpull with a swiftcast + holy combo, or as I've taken to calling it, "Shock and Awe." When you're running with a dpsing healer that knows what she's doing, the only words to describe it are "smooth as fuck." Shit gets buttoned up fast. Why would anyone be opposed to that? You may as well tell me not to fell cleave while tanking.

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Originally Posted by Greyhawk

And unfortunately, as I've said before - with potency and damage levels being increased while tanking is being nerfed makes no sense either. Using flash x3 on a mob, one after another and still not being able to pull agro from RDMs and WHMs spamming DPS abilities doesn't justify them doing that until they are blue in the face either. I don't understand why so many DPS/heal DPS try like absolute hell to pull mobs from tanks. It's a balance, not a competition.

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This reads more like undergeared tank vs overgeared DPS/healer to me. If gear isn't the issue, and you're losing a single target, they may just be going ham on that one target or it might have just been out of range of Flash. If you're losing groups to a DPSing WHM who's not overhealing excessively, you're doing something wrong. 99% of the time I can open up with Aero III + PoM & Thin Air then Holy x7-> Swiftcast Holy -> Assize and not pull hate unless the tank is undergeared, inexperienced, or just happened to miss grabbing a mob when they were pulling.

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Originally Posted by Greyhawk

And again, as I've said - " If they are doing anything above and beyond, fine, but stop sacrificing your primary role in the group." The original post was about PLD using their healing. There's a reason for it - because the primary role of the healer is being ignored by the healer. I don't use Clemency for anything other than the healer failing, repeatedly to do their primary role. No one ever said they can't do anything else.

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Casting holy is the best form of mitigation there is other than hallowed. Stunned mobs do zero damage.

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Originally Posted by Aana

Holy spam is the best spam.

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Unless the Chimera manages to get to Dragon Voice before we kill it, then please let me stun it. Unless you actually move to avoid the attack, in that case go all in. (Seriously the amount of WHMs I've run into on Fractal HM who do that and then eat the Voice I swear.)

I've seen this happen often as well, when I'm a healer or dps and get a paladin as a tank during dungeons or 8-man content. I don't know much about paladins, but I do see a good number of them using clemency when it's not needed (above 50% hp). 10%? Completely understandable. But barely scratched? Come on... or is there a hidden clemency trait I'm not aware of? Like a damage reduction per clemency use?