Oh NOW suddenly PvP is fine without XP? Okay, get rid of it then! Might suck for the new guys leveling, but those of us who played and enjoyed it before enjoyed it despite the ability to gain XP in it not even being an option. For some, perhaps it was something to get a few extra tomes from, for us, it was endgame. It was OUR endgame of choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiyahArp
I won't mince words today: People didn't PvP because they were scared. "PvP is toxic" and crap like that. Or they just blindly bought into what someone else said, but fact is, where the opportunity was presented, long before Garo, XP, and whatever else, people shied away from it. I'm speaking from personal experience once again, not nostalgia, so let's nip that in the bud right now. I've heard almost every excuse and every handwave at this point.
The Feast was "underplayed" in the sense that slowpokes and others who decided to mosey in and try to get started late in the season were out of luck, as the community that was actively participating ranked up, and continued to play amongst themselves at higher rank tiers, and from start to finish, each season. This is honestly no different than the "hardcore/midcore" raiders clearing and farming PvE content earlier in a patch cycle, then leaving the ones who drag their feet, approach it casually, or just lack skill. Seize was replaced by Shatter, and Shatter REMAINS active, despite how tired people are of it. One could thank the botters for that, but before them, it was the XP farmer of 4.0. Before THEM, it was the Garo crowd. And before THEM it was the dedicated PvP community that kept it alive - because it was still the newest content we had.
I've proven time and again, hell, YOU'VE proven for me that 3.x PvP was in fact better. It wasn't perfect, it was never perfect, but SE somehow managed to take something decent and make it worse. Unsurprisingly, they did the same thing to Rival Wings in 4.18. But that aside, whatever memory/interpretation you have of the old system has been so disproven and corrected by now it really leaves me wondering if we even played the same game back then?
SE when are you going to add new PVP actions?
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12-27-2017, 04:14 AMThirdChild_ZKI
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12-27-2017, 05:11 AMRiyahArpBefore exp ever happened, people were saying the exact same things about tome farmers, and people wanted tomes removed from seal rock for the same reason. Here is one example. . You can say I'm negative, and I won't deny it, but part of the reason I react so harshly is because people really do forget what things were like in the past. All the arguments boiled down to the same thing "unskilled people are ruining pvp by chasing the pve incentives that come from it."Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
The Feast became toxic because the matchmaking system was too loose and the disparity between players was too great. Especially with healers, who could often cost you the match compared to a mismatch between dps or tanks. By the time SE tightened it some, the damage was done. People got mad because they were handed ranked losses they couldn't do anything about, because you couldn't even dps safely if the healer was down. This is why I get annoyed about "oh, 3.0 is better," because people really forgot that the healers they did have had to survive through so much stuff that relatively few remained, killing Feast queue times and generally keeping them low in all modes. This is just basic human nature..Overwatch often had the exact same problems despite coming out much later.
If you think 3.0 is some golden age, well, the worst thing they could do for you is to bring it back. Cause it wasn't and you find you have the same problems but with a worse combat system. -
12-27-2017, 09:34 AMThirdChild_ZKI
I see the disconnect now. . .
When I say how 3.x is better, I'm literally referring to the gameplay systems. It seems much of the point of view behind your counterargument is the human element.
Sure, there's bad/toxic/low skilled players out there. There always will be. They're not something I can control very much, nor am I like to try. However depth of a system that was in fact, better than. . . this, doesn't factor in the players one bit, except where I perhaps highlight issues that exist now that didn't before. Botting, afking, giving up, all usually in the name of XP or whatever "reward" players know they can get via other content, and often in larger amounts.
So, effectively, yes. Bring back the "golden age" when the players who actively PvPed were doing it because they wanted to PvP. Bring back the age where being skilled at a job weighed more than what skills the job itself has/doesn't have. Bring back the age where players who were actively PvPing actually had some fighting spirit and weren't so ready to just give up in hopes of getting their consolation prize and running away, or aimlessly trying again. Bring back the healers that were legitimately good and could function just fine in even the most extreme conditions rather than bandwagon healers trying to ride unbalanced kits to success while doing as little as possible. Bring back tanks, not weak DPS with cc skills others generally lack. Bring back useful melees.
Bring back a PvP that was fun to play and really utilized the full capabilities of each job uniquely, and not this 9 button, "everyone can do it" - except the CAN'T - watered-down-for-the-masses crap. -
12-27-2017, 09:55 AMWintersandmanRiyah, 3.0 is so much better than this system we have in place now. Any Job could take on any Job. I don't see how this 4.0 combat system is 'better' than what we had in 3.x. I would also like to know why you think 4.0 is so much superior.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiyahArp
I am also sick of hearing complaints about premades. There is NOTHING stopping you from getting friends together to pvp with. -
12-27-2017, 10:24 AMSunako
Pvp is all about rewards. If they would remove xp, tomes, mounts, achievements, titles, glamours, season rewards etc. Do you think anybody would play pvp? Do you think pvp itself is enough reward play the game? Players usually wanna progress one way or another and have certain goals.
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12-27-2017, 01:26 PMuvuvwevwevweonyetenyevweugwemu
It started with the removal of stats. From then onwards, it's entirely new system. I was fairly new but know well enough to put fending accs (which oddly many asked and not knew about). I guess the main issue with this system (equal stats) is that they have to had same amounts skills of different types (CCs, buffs, debufs). Meaning the downsizing and the latest way is to put those skills in mechs instead of jobs. I don't like it either, seems lazy or a quick fix, but I can't think of another way either that all jobs can have this new system requirement (same amount of skills).
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12-27-2017, 03:40 PMRiyahArp
It's fair to ask me why I think it's better. Reasons.
1. Lack of CC is so much more fun, on average. In 3.0, CC was prevalent enough to disable many jobs and make their survivability much less than now. The only counterplay to CC was purify, and that was on such a long timer it was easy to bait out. This led to some pretty annoying gameplay where you couldn't do much of anything if you lost the initiative.
2. Most moves were useless in a PvP context. DoT and AoE DPS weren't all that effective. Pets needed a lot of micro or they'd despawn. We had too many buffs that needed application, or got ignored. The pve rotations weren't suited to fast paced pvp where suddenly server ticks really mattered. People wound up using a stripped down moveset anyways.
3. Jobs performance wound up being heaven or hell. BLM in particular I remember being incredibly vulnerable for average skilled players, but oppressive in skilled and coordinated hands. There really wasn't any job for average players; all had a pretty big effectiveness curve. Just maintaining enochian was incredibly hard.
4. You still had balance issues. There was a lot of smoothing out of the whole toolkit across all of 3.0 as SE realized in general they really screwed up with the kit. I know DRK was considered really bad in it, and PLD really OP. I guess in general this is all my argument, its not really a huge improvement enough to go back to it. You'd just be asking for a more complex system that ideally would be balanced in skilled hands but would probably kneecap a lot of players. This depends if you want the full 3.0 experience or not, though. Even now, rdm and sam would be gimp in 3.0 unless they added a boatload of CC. -
12-27-2017, 05:36 PMMofafafa
New additional PvP actions? No way man.. 9 buttons is too much for me already.
I just want to press my 'wasd' key and '123' and get full rewards while watching netflix.
Complex and fun, entertaining, outplaying skill, psychological mind game, reaction time, coordination, super combo, and etc
This is the reason why SE decided to revamp the whole system for short-term capitalism plan.
Why would SE follow one of the top most viewed game such as League of Legend competitively. Its like E-sports is such a revenue generating market.
Its like twitch.tv MMORPG gameplays, its not like ffxiv is bottom of the list compared to other similar game.
Its like "talent" is a thing and "hardworking" "practices" "research" "consult" "compete" isn't a thing
The lack of "diminishing return" brings out the current issue in RW which is healer being OP.
The lack of tools leads to Melee being irrelevant in frontline, same goes to tanks.
The premade existed just like wintersandman said. Good players attract good player same goes for PvE
I capped my level and still plays RW even when i gotten my mount, because I want to play with my friends, incentives is just a way to attract players, but not to retain player in which SE did not do a really good job in this department -
12-27-2017, 09:47 PMThirdChild_ZKII couldn't agree with all of this more. Echoes my thoughts almost perfectly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mofafafa
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12-28-2017, 02:02 AMZojhaIf it was fun: Yes, pretty much, because enjoyment is a reward your body can give you all on its own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunako
People have been playing custom maps in Warcraft 3 and Starcraft for years without getting as much as credit for the game on the account. People have been playing League of Legends for years for a pittance of a currency they have long had no need for. There's a large amount of shooters with both sanctioned and custom maps that don't reward anything and are played a lot. Fighting games commonly put their rewards/unlocks in the PvE/Story mode, not the PvP mode.
PvP and PvP games in general are usually the least in need for rewards, because the replay-ability is innately high, so you only need to get the base right and you can go a long way without additional rewards. You might still need some in a game like this, if only to cancel out the draw of the rewards from other content (time IS a limited commodity), but in general, PvP doesn't need to shower you in stuff.
The main issue is and always was that this game's PvP isn't particularly enjoyable, so whenever people got lured in with a new attraction or rewards and tried it out, the vast majority wouldn't stick. That was an issue before, that is an issue now. And just as there have been people enjoying the old system, I bet there are people enjoying the new one. But they are and always were few. The exact numbers then and now are unknown, but considering that DPS were effectively nerfed in the update and they make up for like 60% of the playerbase, I'd not be surprised if the old system was truly more popular on that fact alone.
I personally have resigned to playing only for rewards and play something else if I just want to have fun, healers being by far and wide the biggest reason and I'm quite vocal about my gripes with them. They were a royal nuisance before and are a complete dealbreaker now. In general, the balance issues are a far bigger turn-off than the lack of complexity (and thus depth) to me. Thankfully, most dedicated PvP games at most stick their foot into that rabbit hole instead of jumping in head first. -
12-28-2017, 02:51 AMWintersandmanPvP is my endgame. The constant iLvl game has gotten old.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunako
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12-28-2017, 03:02 AMThirdChild_ZKIThis. SO much this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintersandman
This game has no shortage of rewards I can get with only a fraction of my capabilities as a player. No, I'm far from a Ultimate Coil-level raider (though certainly no slouch there either), but PvP - at least before 4.0 - became that last proving grounds for me. "Sure I can handle the scripted stuff, but how well can I handle something different each time?" And it turns out I can handle it quite well. Incentive brings people in, fun/enjoyment keeps them there. The rewards will happen purely though doing what I enjoy doing; they're nice to have and naturally I'll eventually want more, but the BIG difference between myself and much of the newer PvP crowd is that once gotten, I'll still queue up for PvP because of how much I enjoy it.
At least, that's how things were before.