Scholar since 4.1 patch - how are we finding it?

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Originally Posted by Riyshn

I would argue that the hit to our synergy (aside from the obvious Dissipation/Aetherpact conflict), is actually the removal of Cleric Stance. Scholar feels disjointed because it is, because it was designed to take full advantage of Cleric stance dancing, and the dual-stage gameplay that that created. Now that that's gone, we've lost a core mechanical strength, and the tools that worked well with that are just kinda left hanging.



Nope, shields still aren't as strong. (numbers assume a crit multiplier of 1.4)

SCH:
Adlo: 300/300
Crit Adlo: 420/840
Succor: 150/225
Crit Succor: 210/315
Noct. AST:
Asp.Bene: 230/575
Crit Asp.Bene: 322/805
Asp.Helios: 172.5/258.75
Crit Asp.Helios: 241.5/362.25

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that only SCH Adlo gets a bonus from a crit, and no other shield spell does. I remember hearing/reading that somewhere.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that only SCH Adlo gets a bonus from a crit, and no other shield spell does. I remember hearing/reading that somewhere.

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No, you're right, but since the base heal is higher because of the crit, the shield will also naturally be higher. It doesn't go above and beyond like Adlo does.

What inhaldecorn said. It's just misleading to list out the number comparisons without accurately reflecting the final values from crit/Noct multipliers.

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Originally Posted by Clouse_Cleyra

Oh didnt rememberd that, well AST is stronger on aoe shields then haha.
Im still sticking to SCH for Unending Coil thou xD

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succor has a shorter cast time though given same potency to A.Helios.
Nocturnal's 15% bonus is merely a compensation for its simplistic healing set.

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Originally Posted by Riyshn

I would argue that the biggest hit to our synergy (aside from the obvious Dissipation/Aetherpact conflict), is actually the removal of Cleric Stance.

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Completely agree with this and sadly I do think this was a last minute decision that the devs made to appease to the casuals. Those same casuals who are still not DPSing, but let’s leave that discussion in another thread.

The reason I say last minute is because if you look at SCHs Stormblood additions, both Fey Union and Excogitation seem like abilities that were specifically designed to keep more uptime in Cleric Stance. A kit that would have actually emphasised how good SCH was with the old Cleric Stance, but instead that changed and now healer DPS is faceroll easy on all three. It’s a real shame because people generally considered SCH and WAR to be the best designed jobs, not just because they were powerful but because of their core mechanics. SE did a great job at ruining their own creation in that sense.

I’m not really sure what SCH needs at this point. It’s pretty evident that the job is fine and doesn’t need buffs, just changes to its gameplay. But I think that’s a rework that all healers need. People complain that there isn’t much to actually heal in this game, and on top of that we hardly ever even use a GCD on a heal. For healers to simply DPS, throw an oGCD and then continue to DPS seems like pretty bad design in general. Until some core changes are made to content and the role in general, I think it will be hard to achieve satisfying gameplay for healers. Subjective, I know.

Fey Union was designed more to remove fairy micromanagement and randomness. This way you constantly aren't needing to spam embrace, just use fey during long periods and go. Excog I don't see much point to, so I can't say much on that.

I can say cleric would probably have killed dpsing in Stormblood if it existed the old way, though. mechanics and incoming damage seem a bit faster than in HW, and dpsing would be harder to enter into because there are times when you simply can't risk the penalty.

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

Completely agree with this and sadly I do think this was a last minute decision that the devs made to appease to the casuals.

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At PAX East Yoshi P stated his dislike for Cleric Stance, which was a major hint that this was destined to go.
Nothing last minute or 'appease the casuals' as you put it.

Got my SCH to 64 now, and I'm starting to appreciate it more. The Succor boost is definitely noticeable. Looking forward to getting it to 70 and trying out the new toys, which is not something that was true before.

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

At PAX East Yoshi P stated his dislike for Cleric Stance, which was a major hint that this was destined to go.
Nothing last minute or 'appease the casuals' as you put it.

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It's speculation. You can't prove that he meant it was to be removed as his statement only alluded to it being changed in some way. And I also can't prove that it was last minute. However, it's still obvious that both the moves I mentioned were designed with Cleric Stance in mind. They literally synergise brilliantly with the old iteration of it.

And lol it was definitely to appease the casuals, whether you agree with it or not. This entire expansion gutted most jobs for the casuals. Good healers were never limited by Cleric Stance, it's the overwhelming majority of questionable ones that couldn't handle it.

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

It's speculation. You can't prove that he meant it was to be removed as his statement only alluded to it being changed in some way. And I also can't prove that it was last minute. However, it's still obvious that both the moves I mentioned were designed with Cleric Stance in mind. They literally synergise brilliantly with the old iteration of it.

And lol it was definitely to appease the casuals, whether you agree with it or not. This entire expansion gutted most jobs for the casuals. Good healers were never limited by Cleric Stance, it's the overwhelming majority of questionable ones that couldn't handle it.

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Problem I have with this, the statement that we had great synergy with cleric stance, is that cleric stance wasn't even a scholar action. It's something we borrowed with cross, saying we were designed to synergize with a ability that isn't even from our kit is wierd to me. Seems backwards thing for the designers to do as well.

Cleric stance was an archaic relic of a previous phase of the game. It was clunky to use and added nothing except making life difficult for newbies.

Good riddence to bad design. That some people think removing it was somehow an affront to "good" healers to placate "casuals" is a perfect example of why gamers shouldn't be making game design decisions.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

Cleric stance was an archaic relic of a previous phase of the game. It was clunky to use and added nothing except making life difficult for newbies.

Good riddence to bad design. That some people think removing it was somehow an affront to "good" healers to placate "casuals" is a perfect example of why gamers shouldn't be making game design decisions.

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Though this is a thread about SCH, and the post I was referring to was how Cleric Stance's removal was an indirect nerf to SCH. Cleric Stance may have felt "clunky" to some, that doesn't mean that SCH didn't thrive on the ability back in 2/3.x. The whole point in dumbing things down was to close the skill gap, so to say it wasn't a change for the casuals is questionable at best.

You can word it as you will, the simple fact is that it was a change for the casuals. Anybody playing a healer at high level had no issue with it, in fact it actually added slightly more skill to the role as there was a risk/reward factor tied to the stance which no longer exists.

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Originally Posted by Miles_Maelstrom

Problem I have with this, the statement that we had great synergy with cleric stance, is that cleric stance wasn't even a scholar action. It's something we borrowed with cross, saying we were designed to synergize with a ability that isn't even from our kit is wierd to me. Seems backwards thing for the designers to do as well.

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I'll agree with this, it is rather odd. It would make more sense now with the Cross Role system, but RIP.

There's no denying though that SCH had the best kit to use Cleric Stance with in 2/3.x. And even now our Stormblood abilities have synergy with a stance that doesn't even exist.

I was in favor of CS being removed because A) it freed up a hotkey and B) was a constant source of forum complaining and drama (people who still don't understand how the game works - no, there really isn't unpredictable damage - and/or have latency issues that make the stance more difficult to use correctly) and didn't add much value gameplay-wise for experienced players.

On the other hand, I do agree with Kabzy that SCH's toolkit appears more than ever to be synergized with a now non-existent stance mechanic. I consider this to be more of an identity issue, which is my main beef with SCH this expansion. SCH, the pet healer whose pet's overall effectiveness is further marginalized with each major update; the barrier healer who doesn't do it quite as well as the newcomer; the ease-of-DPS healer in an expansion where sources of indirect healing no longer have value in extending a CS DPS window; the adaptive healer when each healer now has powerful oGCD and instacast tools.

SCH is perfectly capable, especially with the recent round of buffs (particularly to Succor, which also offers great synergy with Emergency Tactics when needed); however, SCH is missing some of the uniqueness and shine that made it so appealing to me before. The inexplicable lack of synergy within its own kit (e.g. Fey Union vs. Dissipation) also continues to boggle me.

I hate Dissipation, I know some think it can be useful with good reason, but I just have this irrational hatred for that action.

Selene need the biggest change fey caress needs it recast cut in half; while feywind need it effect doubled. silent dusk need to be reworked so that it useful on all mobs. Possible silence and vulnerability debuff. Dissipation need a rework as well as it is now I never use it. Treat it like Behumet once the effect is done the pet comes back like.. change it into orb and have her tether to you. Then have the tether break when beneficial effect wear off, but pet wont turn back to fairy till lockout effect wears off. Only other thing i would change is the fairy garge it take to long to build up to the point that fight nearly over by time you can use it.

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Originally Posted by Miles_Maelstrom

I hate Dissipation, I know some think it can be useful with good reason, but I just have this irrational hatred for that action.

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Haters gonna hate.

Had a static 13 deaths in O3S, still cleared. Dissipate can be quite useful in a pinch. You just don't always plan on it.

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Originally Posted by technole

Haters gonna hate.

Had a static 13 deaths in O3S, still cleared. Dissipate can be quite useful in a pinch. You just don't always plan on it.

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Also a really good source of MP when you know Eos won't be needed. The extra EDs in v4s soft enrage can save you if your MP pool was too strained from raising, and keep you DPSing throughout a lot of it too. Helped me save a run through GCO as well, too many Lustrates needed left me out of stacks for Indom. Eos was back out in time for Almagest and I could still DPS quite freely through it.

I enjoyed 4.1 changes.
I haven't been running deltascape savage 3 and 4 just yet ( mostly cause I'm still not so interested in raids ) or the new Bahamut's coil but I'm doing fine in the other instances altough some bad tanks / dps can still give me some issues in 4 men dungeons.

I'd like to see an Eos & Selene rework too and maybe a dissipation one ( Selene doesn't really feel worth using atm, Eos...it's just that damn AI...and dissipation is a good tactical choice sometimes but I'd like it more if it resummoned your pet after the 30 seconds effect like already suggested by some other people cause it can feel kinda punishing and I don't get the point of desummoning your fairy on a pet themed class but w/e ).
What else can I say ? The class feels fine apart for a few details.

One last thing I'd be fixing would be deployment tactics...not everyone uses Eye for an Eye and usually tanks won't wait for you to cast adlo on them and then spread it to the rest of the party.

I would love to see Cleric Stance come back as a toggle for extra damage and reduced healing but instead of the huge stat swap we had previously it could do a less punishing 10% increase to damage with a 10% reduction in healing output. It would make me feel so alive to throw that on and DPS with my Scholar with all the abilities they have now.

I have a difficult time agreeing with the idea that Scholar's new abilities seem to synergize with the old CS for one simple reason, the fact that DPSing is still an mp/gcd investment that takes away from healing, the only difference now is that the punishment is far less harsh. Excog and Fey Union still free up the resources to allow you to invest in damage, the only difference is that you can react more quickly to something going wrong.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

I have a difficult time agreeing with the idea that Scholar's new abilities seem to synergize with the old CS for one simple reason, the fact that DPSing is still an mp/gcd investment that takes away from healing, the only difference now is that the punishment is far less harsh. Excog and Fey Union still free up the resources to allow you to invest in damage, the only difference is that you can react more quickly to something going wrong.

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You kind of contradicted your own point there? The fact that the two moves allow more window for DPS, which is the whole reason SCHs Faerie and the old percentage based Lustrate made it so good in Cleric Stance. Unless I'm misunderstanding something here, it looks like you kind of just explained why Excog/Union would be good with the old CS.

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

You kind of contradicted your own point there? The fact that the two moves allow more window for DPS, which is the whole reason SCHs Faerie and the old percentage based Lustrate made it so good in Cleric Stance. Unless I'm misunderstanding something here, it looks like you kind of just explained why Excog/Union would be good with the old CS.

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The point I was trying to make was that the same investment away from healing is still there, just without the extra step that could potentially screw yourself over. You aren't casting Physick and Adlo if you're casting Broil and Miasma. The reason I'm not fond of the argument concerning the fact that these abilities are synergistic with cleric stance is the fact the system of taking resources away from healing to dps is still there.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

The point I was trying to make was that the same investment away from healing is still there, just without the extra step that could potentially screw yourself over. You aren't casting Physick and Adlo if you're casting Broil and Miasma. The reason I'm not fond of the argument concerning the fact that these abilities are synergistic with cleric stance is the fact the system of taking resources away from healing to dps is still there.

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I see where you're coming from, and what you say isn't wrong. However, such abilities had even greater value when Cleric Stance involved a 2-GCD lockout and rewarded uptime with a 10% damage increase on top of the stat swap.

Under the current system, even players who aren't paying a great deal of attention to strategy and mechanics can weave DPS at will. It's not that faerie-based healing no longer prolongs DPS uptime; it's that the removal of CS as a stance makes it a little less vital for that purpose than it used to be.

Even if the value is lessened, it's a value that still exists, and I for one am glad that Old CS is gone, it makes the said loop of investing dps vs healing much smoother, I wish new CS was more potent, or at least lined up better with raid cooldowns, but all and all I prefer the mind scaling and the fact that using the fairy to extend your dps uptime is still a thing, even if it's weaker

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

Even if the value is lessened, it's a value that still exists, and I for one am glad that Old CS is gone, it makes the said loop of investing dps vs healing much smoother, I wish new CS was more potent, or at least lined up better with raid cooldowns, but all and all I prefer the mind scaling and the fact that using the fairy to extend your dps uptime is still a thing, even if it's weaker

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As I said before, I agree with the removal of old CS; I also suspect that Excogitation and Fey Union were designed with old CS in mind, for obvious reasons.

And yes, new CS is borderline garbage considering that it competes with other Role skills and has a fairly weak effect. Outside of AoE, healers aren’t putting out enough DPS that 5% for 15 seconds is proving very impactful.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

As I said before, I agree with the removal of old CS; I also suspect that Excogitation and Fey Union were designed with old CS in mind, for obvious reasons.

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I'm not sure about that...one of the reasons why SCH was so op in HW (and ARR as well, but we only had 2 healers back then) was CS and how it didn't affect eos' healing throughput, Giving SCH even more options to keep dpsing while letting ogcd/fairy skills do the healing would've been the perfect recipe to make SCH the undisputed healers' king, and since the devs had known that for a while, I can't imagine them giving SCH such options.

I agree though that Exco would've worked like a charm with the old CS.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

As I said before, I agree with the removal of old CS; I also suspect that Excogitation and Fey Union were designed with old CS in mind, for obvious reasons.

And yes, new CS is borderline garbage considering that it competes with other Role skills and has a fairly weak effect. Outside of AoE, healers aren’t putting out enough DPS that 5% for 15 seconds is proving very impactful.

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Agree 100% with this.

Scholar could use some QoL improvements, but other than that i am mostly satisfied with it and don't want to see dmg buffs for example. Scholar with chain and his own output is already really, really strong. Also i'd change selene as a whole and link it to dissi, because i can't see any selene buff outweighting eos without being op.

One of the ideas ive seen thrown around was Dissapation temporarily upgrading Eos into a reworked Selene that had upgrades effects to some, if not all, of its spells. While i like that idea I can't help but be fascinated with the fact that instead of reworking Dissapation, they fixed other abilities around it to make it more useable. Personally the only thing i can really think of now is either make Dissapation boost aetherflow heals, either via raw potency or additional effects, or allow us to keep building fairy guage during it.

Only thing I want is for Fey Union to have queue priority over everything else Eos casts. Slightly frustrating taking a hit potency-wise by weaving through mia 2 or straight up clipping only to not have the skill go off. Everything else feels on point.

Fey Union takes SOOOOO long to activate. I've had more than one moment where Im wondering if the tank is gonna die before it starts. Dissipation is a really awful skill too. Losing your fairy is just retarded. Dissipation should instantly swap your fairy and make your next Aetherflow Action free of cost. It would be less beneficial to only get one free aether action instead of three stacks but it would be less risky than losing your fairy altogether too. Plus Dissipation could be used when you already have full Aether Stacks and cause no waste. It would be safe to use in an emergency or just for more mileage. It would see a lot more use this way.

I dunno, I think Dissipation earned its place for me in Sohm Ahl (Hard), where there's enough burst damage going out that I need the extra aetherflows more than Embrace.

But then, my SCH play is hardly endgame.

Some of the systems changes around Dissipation have actually made it a better skill since SB launched. Not that it's in any way a well designed part of SCH's kit, but between Embrace's lowered potency making losing it less punishing, Quickened Aetherflow making Disspation effectively lower Aetherflow's CD to 30 sec (turns out it's actually really hard to effectively use 6 stacks in 30 seconds), and Summon's cast time and MP cost being lowered, it's well worth using now.

The struggle to use 6 Aetherflow Stacks in 30 seconds with Dissipation makes the skill horrendous. Its supposed to be an emergency save but requires so much planning its almost impossible to use in a panicked state. I really hate that skill. Why would a pet based class ever have a skill that locks out your pet. Just why?!

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

The struggle to use 6 Aetherflow Stacks in 30 seconds with Dissipation makes the skill horrendous. Its supposed to be an emergency save but requires so much planning its almost impossible to use in a panicked state. I really hate that skill. Why would a pet based class ever have a skill that locks out your pet. Just why?!

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To be fair, the pet aspect of both SMN/SCH is underwhelming at best. It's not like losing the Faerie for 30s is devastating when you've actually planned it out. And while it is incredibly niche to use Dissipation for its intended purpose, I'll have to disagree with you there. I have had a few runs saved from using Dissipation, and technically that means it is functioning as it should.

I still think the ability needs a rework, but with other changes as well, I think Dissipation is okay ATM. As for your panicked state, I can only say the more you heal, the less panicked you'll get over time in any situation.

Dissipation is kind of emergency skill, when everything goes to hell and you need these extra stacks right this instant (to top tanks, etc.). I actualy had it used at Shinryu Ex in p3, when dragonheads appeared and group was struggling due to some deaths happened before. saved us from wipe and granted a kill. Basically i don't think it needs reworking anymore, it is good where it stands
Overall, yes, i gotta admit, despite my previous raging, Scholar does feels a lot useful, hell, that adlo+deployment tactics crit makes boss ultimate do 0 damage, feels so good. I'm still gonna level AST for Noct stance to see what fits me better in the end, as i far from going hardcore and sacrifice healing to improve DPS by several "k's" as top groups do in fflogs.
Still, i'd love Fey Union to be reworked, as my point stands, it is very low value in raids, considering the cast time, limited distance tether, Fairie unable to do anything else while channeling and providing so-so regen in return.
Also, Selene...

My problem with dissipation is that it doesn't pair well with fairy union at all. They're exact opposites. Union is my Oh Shit heal for the tank and it puts out respectable healing. I've only had one tank die while on fairy union. Quitting that to dissipate, use three stacks, hope none of the DPS have died or will die so that SC is up to summon pet, then reunion them seems like it would take forever. I can see dissipation working when union doesn't? Hm...

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Originally Posted by Alisi

then reunion them seems like it would take forever.

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This is my biggest thing with it too. Now that I'm getting more comfortable with SCH, I have certain fight phases where I want to use Fey Union to make life easier. Building up the bar takes quite a while when it's at zero, so Dissipation isn't a button I'm overly eager to press.

I think we're ignoring the biggest aspect of sch. That being Lilly. Her healing is very poor imo. I think what we really need to focus on is a faerie rework if the healing 'pet' class is to survive.

Changing Embrace to an Ability on a 3 sec recast is the only thing Eos needs. The fact your regen disappears when the fairy moves and does battle with Whispering Dawn on the Global Cool Down is really annoying. As an Ability it would be so much more efficient. It could go off immediately before and after Whispering Dawn without the long pause and also couldnt be silenced or pacified. This would make Embrace way more reliable and since it gets incredibly weak end game this wouldnt throw game balance out of control.