Multiple difficulty scaling dungeons

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Originally Posted by frostmagemari

So because there's no perfect solution that solves every single problem without room for error, there's no reason to adopt systems that would lessen the problem that we have?
That's a good line of thinking to never get anything done.

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Well the fact that you even admit in passing mythic+ doesn't solve the difficulty issues your looking for a solution too should be enough for you to rethink the issue.

Mythic+ is a solution for people to gear alternatively to mythic raids they can't do for whatever logistical reason. Adopting it for the purpose of more difficult dungeons is folly.

And as far as a line of thinking to not get anything done, really? I gave you your difficulty solution already. The problem is predictability, the solution is unpredictability.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

Well the fact that you even admit in passing mythic+ doesn't solve the difficulty issues your looking for a solution too should be enough for you to rethink the issue.

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Nothing will solve every issue. Nothing will, no matter how close you get there will be some issue left. I'm just not someone who believes the perfect is the enemy of the good.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

Mythic+ is a solution for people to gear alternatively to mythic raids they can't do for whatever logistical reason. Adopting it for the purpose of more difficult dungeons is folly.

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The idea of any sort of progression.. whether raid, dungeon, pvp, etc.. is to get to the next tier of that progression system. Some enjoy raids, some enjoy smaller content and some enjoy both while some enjoy neither and would do neither.
If a balanced progression system can be created through small scale dungeons that through harder difficulty can get participants rewards worth the effort, XIV has taken a step to encouraging a longer lasting player base.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

And as far as a line of thinking to not get anything done, really? I gave you your difficulty solution already. The problem is predictability, the solution is unpredictability.

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No, you didn't. You really didn't. You gave a concept, a concept that is not possible under the current design structures of MMORPGs (especially one that uses the tank/dps/healer trinity for content) or any game style for that matter. Further more, any unpredictability system implemented would fall prey to a larger number of people getting frustrated with the system because content would just be a matter of RNG, and everything would be made less lethal in the encounter due to the inherent RNG baked into the monster's actions; couple that with the problems with the game's performance in general and you have your ticket to losing subs.

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Originally Posted by frostmagemari

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Oy. You rail against no mythic+ for difficulty when it'll be just as easy as any other dungeon after people learn its mechanics. And you rail against fighting unpredictable opponents for being too unpredictable.

How do you get something to remain difficult if it's the exact same thing you face over and over again?

As it is now our opponents in dungeons and raids have no tactics. They have a threat bar and a cycle of abilities they use.


Now look at pvp. Sure the tactics of some are pretty darn laughable. But when facing an organized group of players you tend to face a real challenge to overcome. Why? Because they think, observe, and adapt.

You say you want more difficult dungeons but do you really? Is facing off against an enemy that can think and change vs an enemy that follows a set of rules no matter what really going to scare off everyone and kill the game?

Yes my solution is outside the typical mmo game for pve. But aside from doing that the only thing an mmo game can do to increase its difficulty is place a super tight dps check in place and force everyone to be perfect in their dance of death with the boss.

Tell me, how many tears have mmos drank over the years with such methods? How many bosses have been nerfed because of them?

If you are unwilling to step outside the box you're doomed to wander around the same old boring circles.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

Oy. You rail against no mythic+ for difficulty when it'll be just as easy as any other dungeon after people learn its mechanics.

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No.. I never "railed against" Mythic+ style dungeons. I am IN FAVOUR of them; i'm just not foolish enough to think that they are a perfect solution to all the woes, but accept that nothing will solve all the problems.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

And you rail against fighting unpredictable opponents for being too unpredictable.

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Telling you in clear terms why your solution is no solution at all is not "railing against unpredictable opponents"; Try reading sometime. It really helps with a text based forum.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

How do you get something to remain difficult if it's the exact same thing you face over and over again?

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You make the existing mechanics of the fight more punishing (damage, absorption of damage, need for interrupts on mechanics), then you add more mechanics to the fight at certain difficulties that require the party to not just throw themselves at the boss but pay attention to add mechanics or other things to take direct attention off the boss.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

As it is now our opponents in dungeons and raids have no tactics. They have a threat bar and a cycle of abilities they use.

Now look at pvp. Sure the tactics of some are pretty darn laughable. But when facing an organized group of players you tend to face a real challenge to overcome. Why? Because they think, observe, and adapt.

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So what you want is a virtual intelligence? Dear god... I'm sorry, but you're not going to get that here.. ever. So it's not much of a solution, is it?

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

You say you want more difficult dungeons but do you really? Is facing off against an enemy that can think and change vs an enemy that follows a set of rules no matter what really going to scare off everyone and kill the game?

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Considering the fact that you're suggesting creating a virtual AI for boss encounters, and is not something that can be adequately created by any AAA developer at the moment.. yes, the attempt will kill the game just on development alone.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

Yes my solution is outside the typical mmo game for pve. But aside from doing that the only thing an mmo game can do to increase its difficulty is place a super tight dps check in place and force everyone to be perfect in their dance of death with the boss.

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Your solution is impossible for ANY GAME, not just MMOs with PvE... Name me a single game where the enemies don't act on prescribed processes and instead "think, observe, and adapt" to their opponents.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

Tell me, how many tears have mmos drank over the years with such methods? How many bosses have been nerfed because of them?

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Encounters are designed to create an atmosphere for the fight. When they design the fight, the developer team have to think "what do we want to do with this fight" and try to give the audience something that will challenge them but not lock them out of chances of victory. If it comes closer to the latter than the former, than they are able to tweek an encounter so more can have a chance at beating it.
Do i always agree? No; but "let's make a virtual AI" isn't the answer to this bloody question.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

If you are unwilling to step outside the box you're doomed to wander around the same old boring circles.

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And you've climbed out of the box, down the hill and into the rabbithole labled "wonderland" and are having tea with the queen of hearts.

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Originally Posted by frostmagemari

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Oy, I said you rail against no mythic+ which is to say your for it and against those against it. Double negatives and all that. do some rereading yourself.

Many other games have by comparison way way more advanced AI. I can't honestly even call what you see your enemies doing right now AI at all, they're just following a preset script on a loop. But sure I'll name one F.E.A.R.

You don't have to create a virtual intelligence on par with a human being, but as things are now the enemies have zero intelligence and once you know their routine they get stale fast.

For example random lancer enemy uses his frontal short range aoe rectangle, players move out of rectangle, random lancer wastes the next 3 seconds committed to his aoe rectangle attack that will do absolutely nothing all the while said players continue to kill it. If said opponent was even somewhat intelligent it should break the attack when nothing will happen in favor of auto attacking the main target instead at the very least.

Simple things like that alone increase the dungeons difficulty by shortening breaks in damage intake to the party thus putting more pressure on the party. But as it is even the bosses are on a script without much variation and even they 100% commit to attacks that will miss everything.

Hell one of the SB dungeon bosses I just laugh at every time I have to fight him its so predictably easy. Whole dang fight you just have to stand on a corner next to him and take a sidestep every now and then and all the aoes, and floating by mines will do absolutely nothing to you. Once you know the fight the only challenge is not falling a sleep. I laugh because despite this I still watch party members running around like headless chickens getting nuked.

Yes, I want enemies that have some kind of even minimal decision making. You just seem to want enemies to hit harder.

I want a fight, you want dance dance revolution.

By the way, the tea is delicious, you should come try it someday.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

Oy, I said you rail against no mythic+ which is to say your for it and against those against it. Double negatives and all that. do some rereading yourself.

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Honestly, i just thought you were incapable of writing properly. The rest of your post confirmed that for me... But nice cover.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

<a bunch of nonsense>

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You do realize that what you described there was NOTHING like the "think, observe, and adapt." AI you were speaking about before and what i was speaking to you about. As for your F.E.A.R example, even that is not anything like what you're looking for; since what goes on in there is a procedure that the enemies follow. The AI isn't learning, observing or adapting.. It's apparently fooled you into thinking it has though.

Quick note though.. This ain't gonna be .hack, this isn't gonna be SAO, and you're not gonna be a hero fighting some super AI no matter how much your earlier posts make it obvious that's what you want.

Anyway, nice job on on not even sticking to your original idea... I suppose you had to come out of wonderland sometime though; but if you're not even going to stay consistent, there's little reason to have a discussion, is there?