May I present, "LMG - Light Machinist Guide for PvP"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

snip

---

My stamina is exhausted on this topic so I'll sum up with this:

- Lace says never ever pre-load ammo (video specifically features Shatter). This is tantamount to saying that starting off with hot-shots is nearly always the better thing to do.
- I offered the point that pre-loaded ammo can turn into extra ice points, potentially swining a game, when used to burst on a short-lived ice. I purported that pre-loading can be a viable strategy.
- I ran some numbers and found out that pre-loading ammo is not a loss in damage (it's actually slightly more), it delays heat by a mere two seconds (which doesn't even matter because it's not a loss in damage so when you start heated status is irrelevant if you care so much about two seconds) and that neglible difference of what's happening to the very first thing you target in shatter frontlines so miniscule it doesn't freakin matter.

Also, your math is wrong. Check my combat tracker logs, and see if you can figure out why (or look at some of my previous posts where I lay out the answer).

Here's where I stand on this:
- Always pre-load ammo in Shatter Frontlines. If an ideal opportunity presents itself to use stun gun for stolen ice points, you've done your team a solid. Otherwise your start is going to be exactly the same as starting off with hot shots.
- Do whatever the hell you want in other Frontline modes. Your start is going to be exactly the same whether or not you pre-load ammo or start with hot shots.
- Never pre-load ammo in feast. Boxes are free heat. Starting a player vs player engagement with heat is 100% every time better than starting with pre-loaded ammo.

I'm done at this point. If someone can use combat tracker, complete with time stamps and rotations, can objectively prove that there's a way to do more DPS starting off with hot shots that pre-loaded ammo just can't match, then Lace is right and follow his advice (before offering up more theory craft or napkin math, take a moment and note that everyone who has done so so far has been wrong - test it out before offerring it as anything to be taken seriously). But saying never ever pre-load (featuring Shatter frontlines) because it's always inferior to starting with hot shots - based on the best information we currently have, is just not true.

When better information comes along I'll go with that. Until then I'm going with what I've laid out in this post. Adios and thanks for the friendly discourse!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Geryth

[...] (before offering up more theory craft or napkin math, take a moment and note that everyone who has done so so far has been wrong [...]

---

Well, that happens if you outright ignore factors. Simulations aren't easy.

Ammo GCD is 1,5 seconds, regular GCD 2,3 seconds. TP regeneration in combat is 70 per tick traited, one TP in Quick Reload equals 1,25 potency.
By pre-loading, you are going to screw yourself out of 4,5 seconds of TP regeneration compared to not pre-loading, because you are delaying the rotation and thus TP usage by that time, otherwise the overall damage should be largely identical, because you're doing the exact same thing. You trade that for a total of 750 extra potency, which is worth 600 TP. Duh, just the TP you spent.
For DPS, the biggest factor seems to be wildfire. Delaying it means a DPS loss, but so does not using it on the right abilities. A perfect wildfire (started before ammo'd clean shot into full ammo'd heat combo) at most does around 1800 damage without overheat, that's with BTE used on a non-stunned target. With 30 secs CD it's around 60 potency per second. Delaying it by 5 seconds thus around 300 potency lost. Using it right away in the pre-load instead of optimal results in 1375 damage. Using it right as you heat and load up (about 5 seconds later) would result in 1688 damage. Account for the opportunity cost of time and you end up with roughly the same results either way.

Honestly, I can see why the parser says it's a wash on the dummy - the difference should be negligible in terms of sustained DPS. And it doesn't matter if you fight players or ice there, so long as the engagement endures long enough. My own napkin math says that in a direct duel (Assuming early wildfire usage and BTE with wildfire), the pre-loader will die first, if the non-pre-loader has the damage up trait.
(First 4,5 seconds: 3750(wildfire start) vs 1500| second 4,5 seconds: 7625(wildfire boom) vs 7000 (wildfire start)| third 3 seconds: 10375 vs 11438 (wildfire boom) -> first to hit heated clean shot wins (or trait). Bonus: Fourth 4,5 seconds: 16625 vs 15438, all numbers without trait considered)
Feel free to do some simulations on your own. I personally only accounted for TP regeneration by adding a sixth ammo'd and heated shot, because the math gets finicky. I also rounded the GCD from 4,6 to 4,5 seconds for non ammo'd stuff. Latency and double weaving delay not considered either. I 'know' the flaws in my math. They shouldn't matter too much, though. And you can always win any duel by simply hitting your stun gun.

For Feast, the main reason why I would never pre-load is because you can heat up on the boxes, THEN pre-load heated shots and let TP recover. That's better than pre-loaded non-heated shots hands down, no matter what's going to come up.

On a personal note: Not pre-loading feels better. Heated shot animations are cool.

Just commenting on if the math is wrong or not:
It is wrong if you're calculating dps within that timeframe.
It is not wrong if you simply accumulate the potency.

The intention is to get into high sustainable damage asap, depending on this and other nuances, this math may not matter. <- I think this is cause of some misunderstandings.

In any case, if peeps preload in frontline, it's most likely no big deal. It depends on a lot of things, but as meta, you should not preload.

As I see it, preloading is best used for stun-gun burst situation. For example, stunning a small group in front of small crystal and quickly burst down at least one of them (assuming it is small group only, and no skilled healers).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

This applies to Frontline as well. Use Hot Shot on the closest crystal to you. If not, pop an enemy player 2x and run. They won't get to you. Never be running around with 0 Heat. And there's really no excuse to not have 50 or over at any point.

---

Ummm... Ok the crystal part is ok, but if you're forced to hit one person twice and run away to accumulate TP after loading up, that is clearly a loss in dps (If I read you correctly that is). I think this is part of the "the math is (not) wrong" argument, as some people don't count the prep/don't think it's important.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Guesswhat

Ummm... Ok the crystal part is ok, but if you're forced to hit one person twice and run away to accumulate TP after loading up, that is clearly a loss in dps (If I read you correctly that is). I think this is part of the "the math is (not) wrong" argument, as some people don't count the prep/don't think it's important.

---

I'm referring to the very beginning of the match. Or any point really. In the beginning, you Hot Shot a target 2x, simply don't engage. It's not a DPS loss because the fight didn't start engage. Just because you hit somebody doesn't mean it's timeto fight. There are times to fight and times not to. Times to kill and times not to.

The reason why I don't agree with Geryth is because you can't go by math on a dummy. On paper it's stronger to preload, but that doesn't take into account every single other scenario that can happen. It's very very basic and restricted to Preload strategy's favor.

-Does the math take into account whether or not players need you to help focus ice?
-Does the math take into account the strategy of hotshotting people just to gain heat?
-Does the math take into account other MCHs with heat already?

It doesn't. Because the math is simply done on a dummy. A single scenario that can only be replicated by hitting the first ice which at that point it isn't needed or if you die(you shouldn't) and have a crystal really close to you.

It's like saying BLM is the strongest job in PvP because flat numbers on a dummy prove it. Even though that's not the case because in real PvP a BLM won't be sitting in one spot for a whole minute.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

The reason why I don't agree with Geryth is because you can't go by math on a dummy. On paper it's stronger to preload, but that doesn't take into account every single other scenario that can happen. It's very very basic and restricted to Preload strategy's favor.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Geryth

...it delays heat by a mere two seconds... that neglible difference of what's happening to the very first thing you target in shatter frontlines so miniscule it doesn't freakin matter

---

Dummy, player, ice, is all the same. Same damage over same time frame - if your only goal is to pop a player for heat and then swim around for another target then consider:

1) You've done more damage to that first target, which may or may not mean anything
2) You're heated status came a mere two seconds later
3) your goal was never to try to kill anything to begin with

It. Doesn't. Matter.

I gotta just stop looking at this thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

-Does the math take into account [...]

---

Hngh... okay, I feel I have to chime in again in spite of better knowledge.

Does math take into account the fact that you can be rushed by an enemy DRK while trying to build heat, consequently get stunned, focused by the entire enemy team and die instantly before even getting your second hot shot off?

Now it does! It's 1000 potency vs 750.
*rolleyes*

Any math is only valid for a given scenario. If the scenario changes, so does the math and the conclusions you draw from it. And then you have to think about which scenarios are likely to happen. You are discrediting the math for a given scenario by saying it isn't valid in a different scenario. WELL DUH! That's not even a counterargument, that's just common sense.

The actual arguing point is how likely each scenario is to happen. Geryth thinks it's likely to go from the base straight into a prolonged fight and concludes that pre-loading is good from that, because in that scenario, pre-loading seems to perform well. By disagreeing, you say that the scenario is not likely to happen and in a different scenario which you consider likely, not pre-loading performs better. And since neither of you has statistics on which scenario is how likely to happen, it boils down to opinions. And oh the joy of arguing over opinions.
If you are rational, you can simply consider either strategy a gamble on a certain scenario to occur, namely the one that favors the own decision and leave it at that.

And please, other MCHs are completely irrelevant in that. It is pointless to list that, because regardless of whether other MCHs have heat already or not, your performance will not change. You are not going to deal more or less damage with a given skill or rotation because another MCH has heat or even battle fever. Worst case, you're going to die sooner. And no matter whether you have pre-loaded or not, you are at a disadvantage in that situation. It's not relevant - what is relevant is what you could have done instead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zojha

...The actual arguing point is how likely each scenario is to happen...

---

This sums up the thread nicely.
As I said, if the "math" is wrong or not depends on your angle/viewpoint/gamble/whatever.

But straight forward math, based on dpS, then simply accumulating potency is wrong.

If people find their way of playing efficient and are comfortable with it, then go for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zojha

.

---

I guess that's fair. Truce.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Lace Trim -
LMG (Light Machinist Guide for PvP)

---

Thank you for the guide. I appreciate the effort you put into it. There are very few PvP guides out there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Thank you for the guide. I appreciate the effort you put into it. There are very few PvP guides out there.

---

This alone makes it entirely worthwhile. You're welcome, and thank you for watching it!