Increasing xp gained by dps classes in leveling dungeons

Do other things while sitting in queue. Like fates or side quests.

After reset is when DPS can usually get into dungeons rather quickly. That's when i'd do my big push.

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Originally Posted by Altena

If you're trying to improve queue times for DPS then just make dungeons 5-man.. or even 6-man
1 tank / 1 healer / 3 or 4 dps..

This would significantly lower queue times in theory..

Increasing the number of DPS in a dungeon however - this would effectively let more DPS that are in the queue into the dungeon.. So the number of required tanks/healers per-DPS would be lower.

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Which in turn would mean spending a lot of dev time for the devs to go back through each of the games five million dungeons and re-tune them all to be equal to synced four player dungeons in terms of difficulty. I doubt most players would be okay with seeing maybe two new dungeons a year and one new raid a year while the devs are just reworking old dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Aylis

Which in turn would mean spending a lot of dev time for the devs to go back through each of the games five million dungeons and re-tune them all to be equal to synced four player dungeons in terms of difficulty. I doubt most players would be okay with seeing maybe two new dungeons a year and one new raid a year while the devs are just reworking old dungeons.

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Woah! I think that estimate might be off a little, 5 Million?

Seeing as the suggestion is to increase DPS slots, the changes needed would be actually pretty easy. And I mean macro-easy. Just increase the mobs HP by X amount dependant on how many new DPS are in the run. The off-dungeon where there is a significant difference (like Gubal Library with its last boss and his summoning seals) can either be ignored (so what that some dungeon would become easy, seeing as every older dungeon ends up 'easy mode' with higher gear anyway) or get a little more effort put into them.

A slight increase in damage from mobs will make up for the sudden increase in burst AoE that could wipe a crowd before a healer would even really be necessary, without preventing less-skilled groups from being wiped repeatedly. Remember, twice the DPS, twice the people with a wide range of skill in DPS'ing, meaning that the comparative "bottom-line" and "top-tier" groups are even further apart.

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Originally Posted by Miles_Maelstrom

Woah! I think that estimate might be off a little, 5 Million?

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I don't remember the exact number...other then it was a lot, lol.

We are only getting one new dungeon every odd patch starting with 4.1, cause they want to spend dev time on other content so that is perspective right there.

Of course they don't really go back and fix old content unless it's broken, or it absolutely needs it. Like the more recent exception is them going back to modify Labyrinth of the Ancients party setup so you don't need 6 tanks in the alliance for the 4.1 raid roulette. So no, changing the light party setup is just never going to happen.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Seeing as the suggestion is to increase DPS slots, the changes needed would be actually pretty easy. And I mean macro-easy. Just increase the mobs HP by X amount dependant on how many new DPS are in the run. The off-dungeon where there is a significant difference (like Gubal Library with its last boss and his summoning seals) can either be ignored (so what that some dungeon would become easy, seeing as every older dungeon ends up 'easy mode' with higher gear anyway) or get a little more effort put into them.

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You might be oversimplifying this a bit. There are a lot of boss mechanics that would need re-tuning to keep they passable and challenging enough with the addition of players to dungeons. I can think of one of the top of my head. Last boss of that level 60 rator-race dungeon. The times the boss summons Garuda to do an aoe where the players get big circles and they need to spread out. The second time it happens is fine, but the first time when it's a circle instead of the doughnut, there would not be enough space to not clip the circles.

A second instance I can think of is the owlbear dungeon, second boss with the totems mechanic. Totems would start become to dense with addition players.

Not to mention, to suggest this is some blanket macro is silly, they would need to go in adjust each dungeon individually, play test them to make sure they are functioning at the right difficulty levels for a new group, etc., etc. As well as make sure any mechanics are still challenging and passable with the additional bodies.

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Originally Posted by Miles_Maelstrom

You might be oversimplifying this a bit.

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Not really. I would be oversimplifying it if I claimed that for healer or tanks, but for DPS, that's about all that needs to happen for most content.

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Originally Posted by Miles_Maelstrom

There are a lot of boss mechanics that would need re-tuning to keep they passable and challenging enough with the addition of players to dungeons.

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I'm sorry, but not all bosses. And there aren't that many of them either, really. And even for those that are there, usually there is an "easy way out". Meaning that yes, some work would need to be put to bring them up to par. No, I don't think that's a problem. Developers already showed that they don't care about keeping the old content challenging or 'right'. The change to skills of all classes changes those classes in old content. And in pretty much all cases, it makes them lose out quite a lot and gain nothing in return in comparison to how it was before 4.0. So long as the dungeons can be passed, they don't care. And frankly, neither would most players.

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Originally Posted by Miles_Maelstrom

I can think of one of the top of my head. Last boss of that level 60 rator-race dungeon. The times the boss summons Garuda to do an aoe where the players get big circles and they need to spread out. The second time it happens is fine, but the first time when it's a circle instead of the doughnut, there would not be enough space to not clip the circles.

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You are actually making a problem where there is none. Depending on how it is programmed, it may need no change whatsoever. If it is set to target every player, then yes, there may need to be a change made. Though, not necessarily, as seriously, that attacks damage is miserable even when you just unlock that dungeon, so you can as well make it into a choice of "who's going to suck two attacks, and how to avoid three or more". But it may very well be set to specific amount of players, and any additional ones simply wouldn't be targeted at all. Then there would need to be no change at all. The non-targeted players would simply need to avoid the AoE's altogether, or if there's still a tight fit, just get attacked by one of their choice, rather than more.

This applies to all cases where something appears (like an attack marker or a mob or something) based on number of players. In some cases it can be left alone, in others it can active for four players instead of all, even if there are more.

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Originally Posted by Miles_Maelstrom

Not to mention, to suggest this is some blanket macro is silly, they would need to go in adjust each dungeon individually, play test them to make sure they are functioning at the right difficulty levels for a new group, etc., etc. As well as make sure any mechanics are still challenging and passable with the additional bodies.

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No, it's silly to think that anything more is needed (as in, blanket change for most of the content with targeted change for the few, specific situations with some skills/bosses/mechanics). The DPS already have varied potentials in varied situations. You really think that they are playtested so much that all that matters is the players skill?! No. They need to meet a minimum treshhold. And in vast majority of cases of vast majority of dungeons, extra DPS have effect only on the speed of how fast the mobs go down. You want to tell me that there are some 'mechanics' in standard mob fights in yer average dungeon, which consist of 70%+ of the dungeons length?! And many mob fights are just simplistic 'avoid the AoE', 'kill the one-time spawns that happen at X% of bosses HP'. All those situations CAN be solved simply by increasing the mobs HP and slightly damage, and increasing the bosses HP only (since they will not go down so fast that the tank wouldn't need to be healed anyway) depending on the number of DPS added. Two more DPS would be "fixed" in many dungeons by a blanket increase of 65%-75% in mobs and bosses HP and 10%-20% increase in non-bosses attack. Playtesting is a given, but with such simple changes, it could be kept to running the dungeon three or four times and if the time is similar and the challenge seems similar...it's fixed. The end. Go to the next one. Not even a week for TWO groups of people, and that's assuming they take it slow.

I'm afraid that not everything is as complicated as it seems. Increase in DPS is mostly just increasing damage output of the party. Nothing more, nothing less. That's all that needs to be accomodated. In majority of the content, the tank takes the brunt of the attacks anyway, so healers heal other party members through AoE heals anyway, and for that, the number of members is irrelevant.
Well, there is ONE part where it would make a difference. You could ignore two DPS more and still complete the dungeon, albeit at an excruciatingly slower pace. But how is that different from how you can ignore one of the DPS now?! Or half the party in the Main Story Quest roulette?!

Yes but don't you see how that is more complicated than you first thought.

Look how much you wrote to go back at two instances of a boss mechanics that need changing. These are all things they need to review, you even mentioned that if it is set up tot target all they can change it to only target four. Cool cool, that's a change they had to find evaluate then change the code for it. This is all work they need to put in to make this change possible. These kinds of reviews, evaluation and change needs to be done for every boss every mechanics. Yes not all need changing, but they need to check to see if they do or not.

It should be noted that simply pointing and handwaving off DPS in a different direction, i.e. FATES/PotD also has a rather terrible downside. . .

How many times have you encountered someone who doesn't quite understand how the dungeon, or worse, their job works simply because they leveled it through FATES or PotD?

Increased XP isn't the answer, but neither is shrugging them off and saying "go do something else".

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Originally Posted by Miles_Maelstrom

This is all work they need to put in to make this change possible. These kinds of reviews, evaluation and change needs to be done for every boss every mechanics. Yes not all need changing, but they need to check to see if they do or not.

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Of course there is some change needed here or there. But it's nowhere as time-consuming as making a single, new dungeon from scratch would. That's my point. The changes needed would be few and mostly small (changing "target all" to "target four" should actually take more time in finding the line than doing the actual change, meaning it shouldn't really take more than few minutes at most). And more importantly, they are all "in the background".

In most games, there are many repetitive templates applied. This game is no exception. In code, most skills have the exact same traits with set values depending on its supposed effect. Well, assuming the programmers have even fundamental idea of what they are doing. I mean, it's a bit worrying that the excuse of "coding limitations" are used for stuff that should be simple templates like this, so this MAY be a problem...If programmers don't think of future changes, that's how it can end up. But as an MMO, honestly, if there are such problems with the code...they SHOULD do that in the first place. Anyway, I went on a tangent here. Anyway, as long as there are these templates, making small background changes take very little time. With very well-made, clean code, changing a lvl1 mob into a superboss worthy of lvl99 dungeon would be a matter of few minutes (ignoring the graphics/sounds). Think about it like that. Diablo II had loads of items and mobs. But as long as it was just a matter of changing stats, giving new ones that already exist or removing ones...changing ALL of them was as simple and as quick as your typing skills allowed. It would take literally seconds to change one mob into a weaker or stronger one, or one item into a more or less powerful one. I'll assume that people working on a successful MMO like this are at least averagely competent. It is common sense to do it that way. So I see no reason why it would take a lot of time by any means.


On a different note, nearly all my posts are long-winded, even if they are about a very simple concept. It's something with me, not with the concepts I type about.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

How many times have you encountered someone who doesn't quite understand how the dungeon, or worse, their job works simply because they leveled it through FATES or PotD?

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Quite a few dungeons are considered mandetory to enter them to advance the main quest, so that shouldn't be used as an excuse.
Plus if they don't adapt quickly to the situations in the dungeons, then they are better off being voted out of the group anyway unless they wise up.

Self-improvement is encouraged, rather than being a log on everyone else's leg.

Consider longer queue times the trade-off for DPS being a dime a dozen, and less responsibility than tanking or healing, where a mistake can cause a wipe.

If DF queues are long, use party finder. Find an FC and group with people. Stop asking for the system to be skewed in your favour. Sincerely, DPS main who endures long queues.

IMO, the only way to really affect DPS queue times is to diversify rewards for healers and tanks. I think this should include rewards for ALL roulettes, not simply the levelling roulette. We've had discussions like this before and I really would like to see more rewards -- mounts, titles, glamour items tied to achievements for filling the Adventurer in Need role. Cracked clusters noticeably shortened queue times for levelling roulette, so they need to keep going in this direction.

Re: long wait times... I myself just do other things. I use the time waiting on queue to check retainers, do daily logs, and play other games while I wait. I actually appreciate how long it takes, sometimes, just because it gets me to finish up other stuff, lol.

Also to the point -- PF is a good way to bypass the queues. A lot of tanks and healers are quite happy to queue for EXP grind runs.

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Originally Posted by ilea

IMO, the only way to really affect DPS queue times is to diversify rewards for healers and tanks. I think this should include rewards for ALL roulettes, not simply the levelling roulette. We've had discussions like this before and I really would like to see more rewards -- mounts, titles, glamour items tied to achievements for filling the Adventurer in Need role. Cracked clusters noticeably shortened queue times for levelling roulette, so they need to keep going in this direction.

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Or maybe people should stop underperforming in all roles and make it an overall better experience to have them in roulettes.
That means self-improvement and cutting out the bad from the good.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

Or maybe people should stop underperforming in all roles and make it an overall better experience to have them in roulettes.
That means self-improvement and cutting out the bad from the good.

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Personally, I don't see how skill level factors? (At least in this discussion.) The long and short of it is that most prefer the DPS playstyle to tank or healer. Thus, I think it's important to incentivise playing as the lesser-used roles.

Seeing a bad healer just makes me want to hop back on my healer job to run roulettes.

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Originally Posted by ilea

Personally, I don't see how skill level factors? (At least in this discussion.) The long and short of it is that most prefer the DPS playstyle to tank or healer. Thus, I think it's important to incentivise playing as the lesser-used roles.

Seeing a bad healer just makes me want to hop back on my healer job to run roulettes.

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Because people don't like the risk of getting together with random people with random level of skills. And as you said, if you spot bad healers, then you know this dungeon will take unnecessary longer.
Hence you fall back on your list of reliable people (mostly in your fc) to go with them. And the unlucky rest ... well, you saw the queue times before the bump in rewards on leveling roulette.

Go and accept those daily hunting bill from the board at Kugane/Rhalgr reach. For each mark complete you will get like 100k exp each? You will get like 1.5 million exp + centurio seals daily while waiting for the queue to pop. Normally, I accept these hunt bills and do them while queuing. The queue usually pop before I complete all of them.

Slower queues are the price dps pay to play the 3:1 ratio role. We shouldn't be incentivizing players to play more dps as it would make queues even WORSE

I don't know if the mods are actually looking at this BUT

Talking about 61+ dungeons I think exp gain its ok. You can get a level in 3 runs with buff, food and rest.

BUT what I would like to suggest it's to KEEP the experience chain from mobs all the time in once you level at 62 - 64 - 66 and 68. Don't know why that gets removed at all. Allow us have the exp chain all the time.

It really helps plus we getting more and more classes

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Originally Posted by Mature

BUT what I would like to suggest it's to KEEP the experience chain from mobs all the time in once you level at 62 - 64 - 66 and 68. Don't know why that gets removed at all. Allow us have the exp chain all the time.

It really helps plus we getting more and more classes

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I mean, as to why, it's because you are now above their level, but I get where the idea is coming from.

I understand OP's frustration. The exp rate gain between tank/healers and dps is a fairly wide gap. In the best party conditions possible, for example, I could join and complete Bardam's Mettle 4-5 times in an hour. For DPS, I'm looking at 2 and honestly stretching to 3 times, simply because the wait queue itself in my data center's about 20m in average (15-17 being the lowest and 25m the highest). This is why people can level their tanks and healers (each, not at the same time) in like a week if they exclusively focus on leveling but dps takes much longer.

Honestly, I feel like the only way an exp increase for dps would work is if they increased to a point where, for example, one could cap from 60-70 as a dps in the same timeframe it takes a healer/tank to cap. That's the tangible solution that I don't think S.E's going to touch at all due to various factors. After all, I recount many posts regarding this kind of topic that refer to HW's AST and DRK where the aventurer in need was DPS. So what does this mean for this expansion? It means the problem that is long waits for this factor in particular is temporary. Prior to SB, my average wait times as a dps rarely exceeded 15m for any sort of roulette and I am confident that as time keeps going on, the wait will lessen. It will still be the highest of the 3 roles but it might more tolerable.

Another factor as to why I think SE would not implement an increase is the unwritten word that it "balances" role expectations out. Tanks and healers have more responsibility than dps. Its why they get more rewards from the roulette prizes. Now bear with me but I am of the belief that SE would not increase exp for role that doesn't carry as much "weight" as tank and healers and that the quick queues are in itself a form of "reward".

Lastly and possibly the most comical would be an escalation effect. If exp is increased to a point where it effectively compensates for time spent waiting for a queue, then what should happen if there are even more dps than before trying to queue? Then dps would find themselves waiting just as long, then complain, then SE increases exp again...but up to which point? And where does it end? One level gained per roulette? (Yes, I just exaggerated there but point remains.)

Unfortunately, its just one of those things there will never have an effective solution so long as any roulette needs specific roles for its completions.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

This would at least make up for the discrepancy in queue times, putting the leveling ability on par with tanks and healers.

I know there are lots of ways to level dps classes outside of dungeons, but the game is basically dungeon based. Using other leveling methods effectively hampers dps skill set at end game.

Thoughts?

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God no, that will just make queues even worse.

I could care less about DF Roulette incentives. We need content that will allow a group of 4 dps to clear like actual dungeons and other content to level up in. Fates are boring and the exp rewarded from fates is not worth enough to do slow fate grinds solo. Leves? meh... PVP? I dont think so when you end up losing 90% of the time and watching bots screw it all up... its not worth running pvp at the moment.

Real Tank and Healer incentives

Solution: turn tanks into glorified dps. Give tanks a sweet dps rotation with sweet damage out along with the tank rotation. I'm not saying give Tanks equivalent damage out to dps but make it feel like they are a dps. They could even add in buffs when using the dps rotation like 5% or 10% damage mitigation from auto attacks for 10 secs...ect

Healers really could use a real dps rotation... i mean seriously its boring to spam rock throwing over and over again... oooooh look at me I can throw rocks at the boss.... The devs could add in self mp regan and Hp regan for nearby group members as you utilize the dps rotation. If you stop dpsing then the hp/mp regan stops.

The above is real incentives... giving extra popcorn for using the DF roulette is not real long lasting incentives. Making the job feel rewarding to play is the real incentive.

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Originally Posted by Astral145

Snip Snip Snip

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Well we have PotD with more Palace on the way at some point.

Tanks already have two rotations, one for aggro, one for dps, and if you are PLD one for MP regain.

WHM has Stone, Aero, Aero III and holy, oh and assize, but hey, lets just spam rock throw?

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

Tanks and healers don't need to join an fc to level fast. Why do dps have to?

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because too many DPS won't / don't level tank/healer jobs.
also... there's actual need for different types of DPS ... melee/range/caster while tank and healer .... anything works.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

Having to beg in pf or pester fc members

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this is why DPS has no friends.

on the other hand... my friends forces me to play DPS so they can play tank and healer... orz

I would like to see some double exp weekends since leveling jobs from 60 to 70 can take quite a long time after you did your Stormblood story.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

I would like to see some double exp weekends since leveling jobs from 60 to 70 can take quite a long time after you did your Stormblood story.

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Why should they - That's content you can tackle until the next expansion, which surely takes another 18 months to come.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

Why should they - That's content you can tackle until the next expansion, which surely takes another 18 months to come.

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not to mention that we already have bonus exp from resting, fc buffs or the scrolls from squadron, exp buff when you already have one job at max lvl, bonus exp in leveling roulette every day (at least it should open once a day for you DDs) and then there is other stuff like weekly challenge log, bonus exp in guildhests for first timer, daylie beast tribe quests with added exp bonus when they are at max rank...

long story short: if you want an exp bonus, activate your FC buff.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

I would like to see some double exp weekends since leveling jobs from 60 to 70 can take quite a long time after you did your Stormblood story.

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Disagree, the quests definitely took a hit in their experience value this expansion. They gave in relation to the amount of exp you needed very little.

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Originally Posted by blindfoldedkaos

Well we have PotD with more Palace on the way at some point.

Tanks already have two rotations, one for aggro, one for dps, and if you are PLD one for MP regain.

WHM has Stone, Aero, Aero III and holy, oh and assize, but hey, lets just spam rock throw?

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With WHM after setting your dots its still the same skill spamming over and aver again which is rock throwing and extremely boring. Healers in general needs a real rotation that applies some kind of effect to nearby party members. The tank's dps rotation is also very boring. Just saying tanks and healer jobs needs to be revamped so they feel more rewarding to play so more players pick up the job. DPS are fun to play because they feel rewarding when you play them. When I run as PLD I enjoy being a meet shield but after a week of playing it i get bored and move back to playing dps for several weeks and this also applies to healing.

Tank & Healer jobs are not engaging enough to hold interests for a lot of players. Why not revamp the jobs so more players will give it a shot.

It's really weird that the OP seems to think asking if anyone would like to queue with him in a FC is "pestering"? I've been maining healer classes since 1.0 and I always loved to be able to queue with FC or Linkshell friends. It made groups more fun than playing with strangers! I rarely get Duty Finder groups who will talk outside of "Hi!" and "Bai!"

The problem is, this would make tanks and healers even less desirable, which in turn would make dps queues even longer, why should I have to run 2 dungeons as a tank or healer to get the same exp a dps gets from 1? Maybe I'll just play a dps instead? Sure I get longer queue times but the exp is the same, so I'm getting rewarded for putting in less effort?

Maybe instead of just outright awarding dps for doing nothing, they could add a queue time exp bonus, so for every 15 mins you spend in queue you get a 25% exp bonus in the content you're doing, so if you end up with an hour queue you'd be getting double exp. This would basically apply to dps indirectly, but even tanks and healers might get some use out of it in those occasional 15 min queues they get.

I just think players may be bored of the current healers and tank jobs
Also balancing is not just keep adding more dps, no idea what they were thinking

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Originally Posted by Maero

I just think players may be bored of the current healers and tank jobs
Also balancing is not just keep adding more dps, no idea what they were thinking

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The problem of healers and tanks being undesired is common across the genre. It have nothing to do with players being bored of them. In the same way, one could say that players are bored with the DPS there are.

Also, the adding more DPS was not to balance anything. It was to not add new tanks or healers when they wanted to rebalance mechanically the ones that are already available. And players wouldn't accept there being no new classes at all.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

I would like to see some double exp weekends since leveling jobs from 60 to 70 can take quite a long time after you did your Stormblood story.

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Just let your rested EXP build up, then play only weekends. There's your double EXP weekends.

Be better if they just increase exp. from fates to make leveling easers for dps classes. Already get a lot of exp. from dungeons.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

Be better if they just increase exp. from fates to make leveling easers for dps classes. Already get a lot of exp. from dungeons.

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And challenge log and PVP and Hunts. XP rate is fine as it is. I had no issue with leveling red mage from 50 to 70.

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Originally Posted by Maero

I just think players may be bored of the current healers and tank jobs
Also balancing is not just keep adding more dps, no idea what they were thinking

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Boredom? Meh. For some I suppose. Really though, the main reason I suggest anyone tired of que times to seek out an FC and make friends to cure the problem is there are people that play tanks and healers only with people they know.

Samurai should've been a tank imo, not that it would've helped que times in the long run anyway.

This is sadly something that will never change, unless they remove the holy trinity or find the solution to why people prefer DPS over Tanking or Healing, untill now no MMORPG with a trinity has solved this issue. There are MMORPG's where classes can play more then 1 role, even there we see players prefering to play as a DPS over an Healer or Tank. The issue is not something related to the class, but the role.

Giving bonus experience to DPS players, would only encourage Tanks and Healers to take it easy and play a DPS. Why should I as a Healer join a group, deal damage and heal? When I can easily go as DPS, deal damage and get extra experience. To many people see the bonus rewards that Tanks and Healers get as only reward, they dont realise that the DPS are also getting rewarded, their reward is a faster queue. I am leveling my DPS classes right now and I understand how annoying it can be wait 25-35 minutes to enter a instance, but aslong as the majority plays DPS, this will not change.

DPS role is already viewed as the role with the least responsibility, the role that people pick when they want to relax and experience this game without any stress. Now imagine what kind of message this would send to the Tanks and Healers, if they find out that DPS players also get rewarded more experience when they do a dungeon. What is next? DPS players need to wait longer in a queue when farming tomestones, so lets give them bonus tomestones?

This suggestion would only encourage Tanks and Healers to play DPS and will only result in longer queue time for DPS players.