National Leadership in Stormblood and Heavensward

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Originally Posted by Vexander

Fair points, though students aren't likely to have access to Sharlayan's defenses. Given the Studium's stance of prohibiting Sharlayan knowledge from leaving Sharlayan hands, a safer assumption is that these students, carefully screened, are learning more general topics rather than taking, 'Sharlayan's Defenses 101.'

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Very likely, yes. The ban on knowledge dissemination applies mostly to anything which can be applied to war; the lorebook describes it as "all knowledge they deem dangerous". Sharlayan's defenses and methods thereof would most likely count.

I imagine them to be something like the Tollans from Stargate: SG-1. Very advanced compared to our viewpoint characters, but utterly terrified of their knowledge being used by "less enlightened" races for war.

To be fair, Eorzea does have precedent in this; the Belah'dian civil war saw one side (which eventually became Ul'dah) destroy a Sharlayan-built aetheryte in use, dooming eight hundred people to be lost in the Lifestream, because those eight hundred people were soldiers using the aetheryte network for ambushes.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Has Garlemand done this? Maybe. They give every impression of being more on the "invade and smash" philosophy rather than the "infiltrate and subvert" side of the equation, but we do know there are spies so it seems likely they have Sharlayan spies, as well.

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Prior to the Magitek Industrial Revolution, Garlemald did make substantial use of spies to foment discontent in rival nations (lorebook page 177). The fall of Ala Mhigo suggests this tradition is alive and well.

And then there's the Frumentarii, of which Lucia goe Junius was a senior commanding officer.

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Originally Posted by Mysterysword

The infiltrators don't even have to be students. Garlemald has proven itself capable of fielding spies that go deep cover for years without being seen(Lucia), and maintaining contacts that initially start out very minor, but grow over the years to become influential(Eline Roaille). Sharlayan experienced a massive influx of immigrants 15 years ago, when the people in the colony packed up and went back to the motherland. It's not too farfetched to assume that Garlemald could've slipped some spies in there, or contacted some collaborators. Not all collaborators have the same motive, either. Sure, some want money. Others want their safety and status guaranteed if or when the invading power wins.

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I have two issues with this. Firstly, the examples you used. Lucia became the 2nd in Command of the Temple Knights, and Eline Roaille became the 2nd in Command of the Immortal Flames. Given Sharlayan's stance so far, I find it extraordinarily unlikely an outsider would ever find themselves in similar positions of authority.

Secondly, I find it difficult to image that Garlemald could, 'slip some spies,' in with the Colonists given that Sharlayan is a Scholar Nation. They've probably got files on every citizen, transfer papers on people coming from the colony, addresses they're moving from and to, etc... Remember, the exodus was planned over several YEARS. They didn't just go, 'Well, time go to,' and just disappear. The whole exodus was meticulously planned. I'd find it strange if they DIDN'T keep an eye out for spies too.

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Originally Posted by Mysterysword

I really don't get why you seem to be constantly equating Urianger's wards with Sharlayan's wards. Maybe they stem from the same principles of magic(and that's a shaky assumption to make, considering all the very different schools of magic that Sharlayan practices), but that says nothing about any unique twists Urianger might have added himself, not to mention the fact that a short-term ward, meant to temporarily seal off an area, and a long-term ward meant to protect an entire nation, would be very different in terms of scale.

Simply put, just because they couldn't take down one, doesn't mean they can't take down the other from the inside. Also, you would think that, considering the Sharlayans had the entire Isle of Bal dedicated to studying the Echo, they would know if the Echo could take down their wards, and be accordingly prepared. Not to mention, the Garleans have spent decades studying magic, even if they can't use it, and adapting their magitek to defend against it.

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I compare Urianger's Ward to Sharlayan's because he explicitly states it was devised by Sharlayan Archmages. Likewise, considering how Urianger immediately knew it was someone with the Echo who took down the Barrier so quickly, and his constant communication with the Isle of Val and the Students of Baldesion, that the Sharlayans are well aware that the Echo -can- take down their wards very quickly. Urianger didn't just jump to a conclusion, he immediately KNEW that the only way to take it down so fast was the Echo. That'd likely be something he learned from the Students of Baldesion. While its likely the Sharlayan Archmages are attempting to compensate for this, as of the Warring Triad, we know they haven't succeeded. Nor does this mean they don't have other defenses, mind you.

To summarize my thoughts, its not that I don't believe there are spies and collaborators in Sharlayan, I just find it highly unlikely, and even moreso that they'd have any kind of information capable of exposing Sharlayan to the Garleans. At the moment I feel like the greatest threat to Sharlayan from Garlemald would be the Resonant.

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Originally Posted by Vexander

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Who says the Sharlayan exodus was actually all that well-organised? If anything, what we see in-game contradicts that completely. They had 5 whole years to plan it, and apparently all left in a single night (instead of staggering their departures which would've been less of a logistical nightmare). 15 years down the line, we get to the Hinterlands, and we still have to deal with their guardians and golems, which they had plenty of time to deactivate, but didn't. The area outside Matoya's cave is full of poroggos whose Sharlayan masters simply ditched them there, one FATE deals with the consequences of the Thaliak flooding because the Sharlayan flood controls have failed after 15 years of no maintenance, and they left behind a lot of dangerous stuff lying around for any unwitting person to stumble across (re: Great Gubal Library).

Also, Ishgard was every bit as xenophobic as Sharlayan, if not even more so, considering how Ishgard was locked in an eternal war, against not just Dravanians, but heretics who could very easily infiltrate them. Lucia managed to go undetected in that kind of environment, and climb to second-in-command (though it's unclear whether Aymeric promoted her before or after she told him the truth). Who says a Garlean spy in Sharlayan couldn't achieve the same?

Also, the Garleans may not even have had to slip a spy of their own into Sharlayan; they could've simply found a collaborator: A Sharlayan who, after seeing their attempts at mediation between Garlemald and Eorzea fail, and seeing Ala Mhigo so easily conquered, could probably have been afraid that the same thing would happen to their nation, and sought to secure their potential future in a Garlemald-controlled Sharlayan.