How to heal large pulls in stormblood as whm

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Originally Posted by nty

I honestly don't understand why anyone would suggest Medica II for healing a single target,

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2 Reasons:

1) It is still an extra HoT on the tank meaning I gota stop DPSing less to cast a hard cure on them.
2) Very rarely is it just a tank that takes damage in these large pulls. DPS can pull hate off an outlying mob, or they just stand in AoE circles because they don't wana give up DPS or they just literally don't see the telegraph because there are just so many mobs.

1. Note that Holy is mitigation.
2. Note that by Holy-ing you are merely removing auto-attacks and delaying special attack intervals, both of which recharge during time stunned. Stunning for 4s, then nothing for .5s, then again for 2s, off 1s, on 1s, does far less than you'd think because you'll end up just removing one auto-attack from each mob; the rest continue as normal in those openings. In these situations, a non-woven oGCD can still be useful, as you can extend a stunlock to a true, unbroken 6s. The two auto-attacks removed per mob can go a long way.
3. Note that the higher the raid damage, the higher portion of damage intake is covered by opening CDs.
4. Note that the only complete forms of mitigation are Living Dead paired with Benediction, Hallowed Ground, and the enemies being dead. If your DPSing for 3 GCDs of AoE, while it may allow the tank to dip health at a rate sustainable only during CDs, allows a couple mobs to die before CDs end, you have made that portion after the CDs now sustainable, whereas it would otherwise be a matter of the rate vs. remaining eHP—potentially manageable within a particular window, but not sustainable.
5. Note that the goal is to use as few GCD heals, and for tank and healer CDs to be used as nearly to on-CD as possible, for maximum efficiency. Assuming the latter goal is being pursued, there will be conventional timings for tank CDs, and therefore your own. Figure them out.
6. Note that Regen is your most powerful spell, unless over 40% of it is wasted. Make use of it, but there's no need to overcap health on its ticks just to maintain it, unless you'll need the later GCD (otherwise spent applying it more efficiently) for something more important.
7. Remember that only your Spells (GCD casts) are affected by Convalescence, Largesse, Mantra, or Defiance. This makes the Warrior tank stance far less useful than it may first appear. Also note that you'd be hard-pressed to outproduce a gauge-filled Warrior's DPS stance with the few GCDs you might gain from their buffing your spells. They should open in Defiance for the added health margin, and if TP isn't too tight they may give you a Defiance-Equilibrium; expect little more. Inversely, your saved GCDs will tend to outperform any Paladin in AoE, and ideally they will be using Requiescat windows to self-heal while you AoE, as their Clemency spam is nearly as strong as your Cure II spam, and your Holy Spam is stronger than their Total Eclipse spam.
8. Know every tank ability.
9. Get used to subtly assessing your DPSers. Survivable pull sizes have as much, if not more, to do with them than you or the tank. Hopefully your tank will do the same.

Pro advice from my friend about large pulls as a WHM. Note he does not mention Medica II anywhere.

http://i.imgur.com/Bkmc75J.png

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Originally Posted by Inelastic

I'm just thinking of the last time I did Temple of the Fist where the tank pulled all the stuff between those two gates. At the rate of damage he was taking, I just can't see how a spam of holy would work.

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Oh now I know which pull you're talking about. There are enemies called something "Monk" and they hit super hard. I agree with you, no chance for Holy spam there (unless party DPS is really high and tank is timing their invulnerability and other cooldowns perfectly, I guess). I think that's the toughest pull in all current expert dungeons.

Edit: I think it's best to split that in 2 anyway: either pull the group from the first wall to the first Monk group, or pull the first Monk group to the second and then take the monsters at the second wall as a separate pull.

Here is my groups 99% of the time;
Pop every CD you have. Doesnt matter if its in order, or if you space them out, you'll still need your oGCD heals weaved between cure2 spam, as the tank wont use CDs, and are going down faster than you improved heals. (Also cast regens before pulls, and stand near the tank so as not to mess up AoEs.)

Once you're out of oGCD heals and CDs, the tank dies.

Sometimes your DPS can actually kill stuff, and it will die before you're out of spread out CDs.
But then you dont have all yoru CDs for the next pull, and benediction is on CD, and the tank will die.

Now on a super rare occasion, the tank doesnt require weaved oGCDs as much as the others, but you're still spaming cure2, and if u cast cure1, they die.
(Dont even think of Aero, unless you want them dead right as the GCD comes up for you to cast a heal)
but then you get targeted with an AoE, and blow oGCD heals to keep them up.

A few pulls later, you get targeted by AoEs 3+ times and are out of oGCD/swift cast heals, and they die.

Then in 1% of the groups you get, the tank takes a minimum of 2GCDs to die, therefor your CDs and oGCDs can actually be used to let you DPS, unless the tank gets crit by every enemy in 1 round, then they die in a single GCD anyways.

Also, I really dont care about everyones stories about how this isnt the normal. Ive only had 3 tanks ever who actually had gear for their level range or at least close to it, and who used CDs, since SB launched. But the good news is, at least at Lv70 dungeons, i can compensate for the tanks lack of skill a bit more, by overgearing, and having more abilities.
Im at the point when I see a SB leveling dungeon, I check the tank, if they arent at LEAST in the gear from that dungeon or higher, I will drop group, mid pull, if I see them running to a 2nd group of mobs.
I wont trust them, its not worth the hassle.

SB leveling dungeons are torture with undergeared tanks.

EDIT: Also, when I was 1st going through the dungeons in SB, I was on RDM, and I noticed tanks were going down faster than healers would heal them, and almost every dungeon I was practically helping spam vercure on them to help keep them up after a wipe. Id stop AoEing, and try to focus down the lowest HP mob, to try and lower the amount of incomming dmg to the tank as well. I didnt know if it was the healers or the tanks fault, but I did notice that tanks werent using CDs, and assumed it was solely that. It wasnt until I was on healer, that I noticed all the tanks were undergeared and trying to act as if they were overgearing the dungeon.
It's a black and white difference if a tank is in Lv63 gear in bardums run, vs Lv65+ gear for it.

After several EX Roulettes, I've come down to this routine:

1). Learn the pulls in each dungeon. Learn what is commonly pulled and combined.
2). Benison the tank as he's about to settle in (you should know when from #1).
3). If the tank is missing 25% or more of his health, cast Cure 2. Otherwise, if the tank is almost full, cast Aero III.
4). The tank will probably need Cure2 at this point. Use your judgment -- Cure or Cure2 depending on how much damage the tank is actually taking.
5). Try to fit a Regen -- you will probably need two of them -- during all of this. Anytime the tank is 80% health, it is probably safe to squeeze a Regen.
6). If you start falling behind on your heals, use Tetragammaton.
7). Once you get 3 Lilies, look for an opportunity to cast Assize (mainly for MP regen and/or DPS more than the healing).
8). Rinse, repeat. If a DPS takes damage, look for an opportunity to squeeze a Medica in (and follow it up with PI if you can). Otherwise, a single Cure or Cure2 will solve that if you think the tank can last long enough.

Basically that's all there is to it. Of course, emergencies can sometimes happen and that's what Benediction is for. If you are struggling to get the tank out of the <50% zone, consider instead dropping a Regen and then spam-click the Benediction button if you think you can fit it in.

Try not to cast Regen too close to the end of the fight -- you want to make sure it wears off before the pull is done, because not all tanks are smart enough to cancel the buff at the end of the fight (really wish WHM had a skill that consumed Regen on nearby party members for MP or something).

In addition to the above, if the tank is staying above 75% reliably with just a Cure here-and-there, then you can weave in Stones, Aeros, and maybe Holy (I would only use Holy on 4+ mobs though). Some pulls, such as the dogs in Ala Mihgo, you can get away with a Holy early in the fight which is a nice chunk of DPS if you do it right. In fact, you could use Holy in situations like those instead of Aero III during the Benison phase, and immediately start casting Aero III while the mobs are still stunned. That's my common tactic to use with those hounds. Follow up with an Assize and you would have added a nice spike to your parses lol.

EDIT: I would advise against Medica II. It simply doesn't heal enough to help you keep the tank up unless maybe you used Largesse. Medica II is a boss thing, and has little use during trash. The only exception is if a DPS takes some splash damage and you know a Medica 1 isn't enough, and you don't want to Regen them, nor do you want to waste casting time on a Cure.... you *could* Medica II to cover them if you are confident that the damage they took was a fluke and won't happen again soon.

Everyone in this thread acts like the only tanks they ever see are so undergeared and unskilled that they are burning everything they have regularly which I just don't believe. If you are saying this is all you see then I assume you are very undergeared/unskilled yourself or just a liar.

Bad tanks exist but I would place them at something less than 50% of overall tanks. Are they all amazing and require no babysitting? Of course not. But are they crap because you had to case Cure 2 a few times in a row? No.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Everyone in this thread acts like the only tanks they ever see are so undergeared and unskilled that they are burning everything they have regularly which I just don't believe. If you are saying this is all you see then I assume you are very undergeared/unskilled yourself or just a liar.

Bad tanks exist but I would place them at something less than 50% of overall tanks. Are they all amazing and require no babysitting? Of course not. But are they crap because you had to case Cure 2 a few times in a row? No.

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I assume you posted this before you read mine?

My post assumes the tank is medium-to-decent in EX Roulette. If the tank sucks then you're going to be spamming Cure2 and oGCDs non-stop and yes I've been there. It sucks. Basically the only thing you can do in that scenario is Cure2/Tetra/Benediction.

If the tank is good, well... that's what my post is for.

You are correct - yours wasn't there when I started posting. I set my phone down for a bit.

You definitely have a realistic outlook, though personally your method isn't one I'm a fan of entirely. I don't believe in sitting on my oGCD heals and CD's as a WHM because that is just such a big part of the toolkit. I gauge my tank and DPS through the first pull or so and if all seems good I blow things more or less as they become available.

Benediction (to me) represents a huge DPS window especially on something like WAR. I would have to cast 5+ Cure 2's to heal 70k hp or I could do it with one button? Thats a lot of time and MP saved in my opinion. Even Tetra and Largresse can mean the difference between me contributing just DoT's or a bunch of rock throwing.

I guess what I mean is I appreciate your optimism but try to be even more optimistic going forward! There is a lot of opportunity for DPS out there and most of it is made available by the healer themself.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

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Well, the OP sounds like somewhat of a novice, and he's trying to learn how to survive big pulls in dungeons from what I gather.

I felt it best to post a more... conservative/safe routine, one that you are undoubtedly safe in following (unless you get a Cure2 sponge tank). Better safe than dead, right? Now, after the OP gets familiar with the routine I suggested, if he chooses to do so, he can weave in Stones, Aeros, Holies, maybe be a bit more free with the oGCDs, etc when he's more comfortable.

Whenever you start riding a bike, you don't sit down on a crotch rocket and and twist the throttle full-back, do you? No, you started learning how to ride a bike, most likely with training wheels. Then you took the training wheels off and were probably riding pedal bikes as a kid... and then, sometime down the road, once you're comfortable on a bike, you were on that crotch rocket speeding down the road.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

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I totally agree. I suppose I was looking at it from a more general standpoint than specifically keeping the OP in mind which is my mistake.

If anything as a new healer keeping Bene ready helped me be more comfortable with large pulls and DPS because I knew I had a quick fix if things went south.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Everyone in this thread acts like the only tanks they ever see are so undergeared and unskilled that they are burning everything they have regularly which I just don't believe. If you are saying this is all you see then I assume you are very undergeared/unskilled yourself or just a liar.

Bad tanks exist but I would place them at something less than 50% of overall tanks. Are they all amazing and require no babysitting? Of course not. But are they crap because you had to case Cure 2 a few times in a row? No.

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If you're leveling up, you should be undergeared (as was I as Healer, because dungeons refused to give me anything short of accessories, and only after i complete them.)
So 2 undergeared players dont make a right.

Maybe back at Launch, when ppl had the gear from the MSQ, but now that we're no longer on our mains, and dont have the story gear, its all dungeon gear RNG.

But again, if you want to brag about how many competent tanks you've had, go ahead, its going in one ear and out the other. Your experiences will not reflect on my own, as we're going to be dealt a random hand when it comes to which tanks we get.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Everyone in this thread acts like the only tanks they ever see are so undergeared and unskilled that they are burning everything they have regularly which I just don't believe.

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Yeah, it's strange. In SB, I've had one really horrible tank (in Snowcloak, he didn't use any stance at all and as such couldn't really tank anything - despite making the normal speedrun pulls) and then one I remember having to heal particularly much (stopped with a group for around 15 seconds before running towards another group before anything from the first one was dead). I have leveled two healers to 70 in DF and run most of DF stuff as a healer. I have never not been able to DPS in any SB content as a healer (I did even with the two tanks I mentioned). From the stories I read, seems like most healers play with a completely different player base than I do.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

If you're leveling up, you should be undergeared (as was I as Healer, because dungeons refused to give me anything short of accessories, and only after i complete them.)
So 2 undergeared players dont make a right.

Maybe back at Launch, when ppl had the gear from the MSQ, but now that we're no longer on our mains, and dont have the story gear, its all dungeon gear RNG.

But again, if you want to brag about how many competent tanks you've had, go ahead, its going in one ear and out the other. Your experiences will not reflect on my own, as we're going to be dealt a random hand when it comes to which tanks we get.

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I'm not saying that being undergeared is wrong or right, only that it does not describe the majority of the tanking playerbase. Also you do not have to rely on MSQ for gear - I certainly didn't, I shopped the (incredibly cheap) market board gear to stay more or less relavent despite outleveling my MSQ progression thanks to roulettes.

I'm also not bragging about how many competent tanks I have and I'm sorry to hear that logic and reason are wasted on you. As you say the tanks we get are random, and as both you and I are playing on the same data center that means we pull from the same pool. Even allowing for variance tied to preferred content and specific playtimes that means we share some tanks.

If you consistantly have such trouble healing rather than blaming the constantly changing tanks maybe look inward and search out some guides or something? You are the only common denominator in your FFXIV experience, being bitter about someone else's percieved deficiency isn't helping you in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Yeah, it's strange. In SB, I've had one really horrible tank (in Snowcloak, he didn't use any stance at all and as such couldn't really tank anything - despite making the normal speedrun pulls) and then one I remember having to heal particularly much (stopped with a group for around 15 seconds before running towards another group before anything from the first one was dead). I have leveled two healers to 70 in DF and run most of DF stuff as a healer. I have never not been able to DPS in any SB content as a healer (I did even with the two tanks I mentioned). From the stories I read, seems like most healers play with a completely different player base than I do.

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I completely agree, and since these people who feel the need to moan and complain all day while generalizing an entire role as 'bad' make up such a small percentage of players overall you have to wonder who the real bads are...

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I'm not saying that being undergeared is wrong or right, only that it does not describe the majority of the tanking playerbase. Also you do not have to rely on MSQ for gear - I certainly didn't, I shopped the (incredibly cheap) market board gear to stay more or less relavent despite outleveling my MSQ progression thanks to roulettes.

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And each piece is roughly 100k on my server.

Again, maybe you had better luck. Your limited experiences, much like my own, dont accurately reflect the whole, nor does it deny what the other experiences.

If someone is a tank or healer, you can always spam the previous dungeon to get the whole set minus weapon, because 51-59 and 61-69 you are *guaranteed* at least one piece of that dungeon's set.

Since a Tank or Healer is usually <5 minute queue, there really isn't any reason why you can't Q up for the previous dungeon, for example if you're 65 and struggling in Bardam's, try Qing up for Shisui and getting at least half of the Shisui Set, I'd recommend trying to get the left half of the equipment screen minus weapon (and who knows, you might even get that too while running it multiple times!)

And if you're Tank or Heal, you are guaranteed to win all Need rolls.

It's free, no money required, and it's guaranteed 1 piece per run, AND you get a chunk of XP out of it. Win-win-win.