the mp recovery from aetherflow isnt even enough for one adlo

The only change I agree with is for them to lower the MP cost of Adlo and Succor a tad. But, yes fairy heals are free so don't play it off like they aren't. Aetherflow heals are MP free (yes they do have a stack cost).

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

I welcome healing finally a thing for pro healers, and no more an alternative for bored dps players.

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In what content healing is right now reserved for pro-healers? :D

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

The only change I agree with is for them to lower the MP cost of Adlo and Succor a tad. But, yes fairy heals are free so don't play it off like they aren't. Aetherflow heals are MP free (yes they do have a stack cost).

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We can agree to disagree on that. You are right that they are free in the sense that they cost nothing to the caster. But they are not free in the sense that our other heals are comparatively weaker with higher mana costs to compensate for it. Trust me if it was truly "free" then where is my physic II, instant cast aldo, stronger succor, and the list goes on and on. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we should have these things, but also don't sit there and say we don't pay a price for fairy and atherflow heals, because we do.

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Originally Posted by Vilenya

We can agree to disagree on that.

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Well, here are my final thoughts on the matter.

I can see SE lowering the cost of Adlo and Succor because, while I don't have MP issues on SCH, they are very expensive compared to the other two healers.

However, for the people (not you, but in general) wanting the 20% back on Aetherflow - don't see it happening. They have already changed the cross role functions so that all casters and healers have access to Lucid. So, I would almost guarantee the 10% is here to stay. I also don't see them buffing the fairy heals back up to what they were back in ARR or HW.

The MP restore on aetherflow is one of those situation where it will get better as gear progresses. Energy Drain, on the other hand, will lose its value the deeper into the expansion we go as it is a set amount based on level. They can buff the potency or cast time, but the MP cost in relation to max MP will feel less of a burden as ilevel goes up so asking them to reduce the MP cost, instead of looking into other areas where sch suffers, might hurt sch in the true long run.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

The MP restore on aetherflow is one of those situation where it will get better as gear progresses. Energy Drain, on the other hand, will lose its value the deeper into the expansion we go as it is a set amount based on level. They can buff the potency or cast time, but the MP cost in relation to max MP will feel less of a burden as ilevel goes up so asking them to reduce the MP cost, instead of looking into other areas where sch suffers, might hurt sch in the true long run.

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I agree. My biggest issue with SCH right now is the lower/boring DPS. I know healing is their main function, but their DPS is what set them apart and now they don't really have that anymore.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

The MP restore on aetherflow is one of those situation where it will get better as gear progresses. Energy Drain, on the other hand, will lose its value the deeper into the expansion we go as it is a set amount based on level. They can buff the potency or cast time, but the MP cost in relation to max MP will feel less of a burden as ilevel goes up so asking them to reduce the MP cost, instead of looking into other areas where sch suffers, might hurt sch in the true long run.

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Isn't the energy drain return based on damage dealt and thus, would actually get stronger over the expansion with gear? Whereas Aetherflow benefits from piety, something SCHs don't exactly gear for.

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

Isn't the energy drain return based on damage dealt and thus, would actually get stronger over the expansion with gear? Whereas Aetherflow benefits from piety, something SCHs don't exactly gear for.

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The HP restored from it is influenced by damage dealt yes, but the MP return is fixed.
From the tooltip: "Additional Effect: Absorbs a portion of damage dealt as HP and restores MP"

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Originally Posted by Selova

If you are spending aetherflow stacks on energy drain, you are doing it wrong. ED needs to be removed, it is useless and there are way way better things to spend AF on.

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Anything you spend AF on that *isn't* ED technically costs that much MP. So if ED usually gives you 1500 MP, you can consider Lustrate and Indominability costing 1500 MP.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

I agree. My biggest issue with SCH right now is the lower/boring DPS. I know healing is their main function, but their DPS is what set them apart and now they don't really have that anymore.

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Only with gear that has Piety on it, which I'm sure most will avoid in favor of Critical Hit/SS/DET

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

I agree. My biggest issue with SCH right now is the lower/boring DPS. I know healing is their main function, but their DPS is what set them apart and now they don't really have that anymore.

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Except, SCH still has the second best DPS after White Mage on single target. AST has better AoE but we have better ST. So for trials and raids where there's usually one boss to kill, SCHs damage is still pretty high.

While I agree sch is still plenty viable,i can definitely feel the difference in mp.
Is it a pain in the butt? Sure. Can you still manage? Yeah. Just have to plan a but more.


That said, I wouldn't mind them putting sch at more of a mid point between what it was and what it is now.

You shouldn't have MP issues... Learn to use Lucid Dreaming like every other caster.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

You shouldn't have MP issues... Learn to use Lucid Dreaming like every other caster.

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You can actually SCH without Lucid Dreaming to be honest, but it takes a certain level of not-screwing-upness to be able to.

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Originally Posted by Iveriad

But trying to prove a point by being hyperbolic, using all three Aetherflow stacks on three Energy Drain beats the point of having Aetherflow stacks. And using Dissipation to get another three Energy Drain on top of that.... That's just bad.
Since Aetherflow stacks should be saved for emergency especially if it's on cooldown, not wasted on a back to back six Energy Drains.

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Well, the issue for myself is I constantly see myself in situations where I have to use AF stacks on Energy Drain because it's come back off cooldown, so I don't understand how using AF stacks on Energy Drain warrants humiliation. And using Dissipation to get 3 AF stacks isn't exactly unheard of, but it is a last resort for me, I don't normally use it.

The issue is SCH never needed a Lucid Dream ability. Aetherflow was its MP regain ability. and it was perfect. Now, I recover MP that is tiny compared to the cost of my spells....I don't want to waste a spot in role actions for Lucid Dream when say I could have my old class action of Eye for an Eye. But that's the SCH I like. 2.0-3.0 SCH was a blast to play. To heal and dps. Now the fairy gets nerfed, AGAIN, aetherflow nerfed while still on an insane 60s cooldown with how little it regains, while yes Energy Drain is an option, it's not the solution. Nor is Lucid Dreaming. Tweaking costs to fit the nerf, if they want to keep it that way, is possible. Or for god's sake if you want to keep nerfing the fairy, bump the heal on our physick.....or give us a physick 2 for a bigger heal....Anything.....cuz now its really hard to heal tanks that avoid damage mitigation like the plague..... T.T

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Originally Posted by silverlunarfox

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Lucid Dreaming is very much a solution. Refusing to accept it is the individuals' issue.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Lucid Dreaming is very much a solution. Refusing to accept it is the individuals' issue.

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You know, tha's got me thinking. How would SCH's cope is Aetherflow was further nerfed to not give back ANY mana, and Energy Drain only gave back HP (not MP). Thus a SCH's ONLY means of mana regeneration would be Lucid Dreaming. Do you think they'd be willing to use LD then?

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Lucid Dreaming is very much a solution. Refusing to accept it is the individuals' issue.

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This. It's not going back to the way it used to be, so either adapt or get out.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

You know, tha's got me thinking. How would SCH's cope is Aetherflow was further nerfed to not give back ANY mana, and Energy Drain only gave back HP (not MP). Thus a SCH's ONLY means of mana regeneration would be Lucid Dreaming. Do you think they'd be willing to use LD then?

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That's kinda how it is (for me) already. Aetherflow's mana return in itself is very minor so I am just treating it as a bonus, and rare are the occassions that I have spare stacks to use on ED. Using Lucid Dreaming as soon as none of it would go to waste, and then on cooldown (assuming it won't fail the prior test as well) is plenty.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Lucid Dreaming is very much a solution. Refusing to accept it is the individuals' issue.

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A solution to a problem that didn't exist for the most part /clap

Seriously though, it is nice having the two forms, but it does make role action a little less exciting.

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Originally Posted by silverlunarfox

The issue is SCH never needed a Lucid Dream ability. Aetherflow was its MP regain ability. and it was perfect. Now, I recover MP that is tiny compared to the cost of my spells....I don't want to waste a spot in role actions for Lucid Dream when say I could have my old class action of Eye for an Eye.

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I think that this is exactly what SE was going for, though. WHM and AST basically NEED to take Lucid Dreaming, else they need to rely solely on Thin Air/Assize and RNG ewer cards respectively. SE probably nerfed aetherflow MP gain so that SCH would need to take the skill as well, making it more "fair". I still think this is a skill that never should have been put into role skills and that SoS and LA should have remained as they were. That way, aetherflow could have remained unchanged too.

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Originally Posted by Elleia

I think that this is exactly what SE was going for, though. WHM and AST basically NEED to take Lucid Dreaming, else they need to rely solely on Thin Air/Assize and RNG ewer cards respectively. SE probably nerfed aetherflow MP gain so that SCH would need to take the skill as well, making it more "fair". I still think this is a skill that never should have been put into role skills and that SoS and LA should have remained as they were. That way, aetherflow could have remained unchanged too.

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or if anything they could have increased the refresh potency. Instead of generate a problem where there was none.

I would argue the biggest issue for SCH now is that it's starting to suffer the same issue that WHM did in 3.x: lost identity. Its healing specialty of damage absorption is currently dwarfed by how much more effectively AST can use it with Nocturnal Sect.

Oh, and let's not forget that AST tops it in terms of raid support as well since no amount of damage a SCH can deal will ever top how many times an AST could use an AoE Balance in one fight.

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Originally Posted by Vilenya

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But physick isn't higher mana cost, like I mentioned 2 physick = 800 potency for 1200 MP, 1 lustrate is 600 potency for 1200 MP.

If you want to say they destroyed SCH identity by making physick the most attractive and unexpensive heal on a healer that is supposed to be shield based, then fully agreed, the cost of adlo should be lowered, but using aetherflow heals should be restricted to when you NEED to if there's risk of running out of MP, or whenever you want to if there's no OOM risk.

If aetherflow is off cd and you still have stacks, spend them on ED and put it on cd, keep aetherflow always on cd. The only times I've been OOM is when I die and LD is on cooldown.

[QUOTE=alimdia;4286653]snip/QUOTE]

I play scholar just fine, thank you very much.
If you are that terrible at managing your mana that you have to waste AF stacks on ED, I think you have bigger problems that need addressing.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

You shouldn't have MP issues... Learn to use Lucid Dreaming like every other caster.

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Tell that to Susan EX. Even with LD you run out of MP so fast due to how many times you have to AoE heal in that fight. Succor is 2280MP per cast, Resurrection is 3600MP, my max MP is 18132. If anybody goes down and I have to rez, right before an Ukehi, I'm using around 8160 MP and 2 Aetherflow stacks. That's almost half my MP right there, because doing Swiftcast + Resurrection, throwing down Sacred Soil followed by a Succor before the Ukehi, and Succor in the middle of the Ukehi+Indom immediately after the succor goes out. This is of course assuming the free Succor proc from Sacred Soil does not occur.

If I pop Aetherflow right there, I'm only getting 1813MP back, not enough to cover any single spell cast here. I pop Lucid Dreaming, but then IT HAPPENS AGAIN. I'm seriously low on MP at this point, and am basically screwed if anything else goes wrong. And before you say the other healer should do it, imagine they're the one going down. The insane MP costs on Succor and Adlo combined with the Aetherflow usage make the fight a serious pain on any SCH. Reverting the Aetherflow MP heal to HW levels brings the MP heal to 3626, enough to cover the Resurrection and give me some breathing room, if only for a little while. Hell, I'd go for reducing the recast timer on Indom to 1s to put it on line with Lustrate and eliminate the Succor spam period, or even a 4th aetherflow stack.

maybe you should learn how to heal. youre overhealing way too much. i BARELY heal in susano and nobody dies. literally one succor or one indom before and after ukehi + whispering dawn is enough. no need to waste your aetherflow stacks on sacred soil which is never needed ever. you can also do a deployment tactics before ukehi and everyone is fine.

with lucid dreaming sch actually has the best mp recovery.
WHM: Lucid Dreaming + assize (10% mp every minute)
AST: Lucid Dreaming + 3 ticks of lucid dreaming (less than 10% every TWO minutes)
SCH: Lucid Dreaming + aetherflow (10% mp every minute) + 3 energy drains every minute + 3 energy drains at the beginning of the fight from prepull aetherflow + dissipation in case of emergency

im really confused as what content youre all doing because the only times anyone needs to aoe heal spam has been akh morns (which have been solo healed by a scholar), photon > whirlwind (the one in tower phase, the one in the first phase scholars actually solo healed that part in speedruns, with just a preemptive succor, an indom and an emergency succor) in a11s and j waves in a8s. if y'all learned to waste less of your mp in useless heals you wouldnt have these problems.

and if people are dying, its really not scholar's fault, its the group's fault. healers arent designed around carrying bad pf groups

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Originally Posted by alimdia

But physick isn't higher mana cost, like I mentioned 2 physick = 800 potency for 1200 MP, 1 lustrate is 600 potency for 1200 MP.

If you want to say they destroyed SCH identity by making physick the most attractive and unexpensive heal on a healer that is supposed to be shield based, then fully agreed, the cost of adlo should be lowered, but using aetherflow heals should be restricted to when you NEED to if there's risk of running out of MP, or whenever you want to if there's no OOM risk.

If aetherflow is off cd and you still have stacks, spend them on ED and put it on cd, keep aetherflow always on cd. The only times I've been OOM is when I die and LD is on cooldown.

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Galvanize is also no longer overwritten, so you actually waste adloqium/succor if the shield has not fallen off. Likewise with AST's Nocturnal Sect shields. So in a sense they made it so that people need to stop spamming things just because they're there and use them more strategically.

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Originally Posted by Elleia

I think that this is exactly what SE was going for, though. WHM and AST basically NEED to take Lucid Dreaming, else they need to rely solely on Thin Air/Assize and RNG ewer cards respectively. SE probably nerfed aetherflow MP gain so that SCH would need to take the skill as well, making it more "fair". I still think this is a skill that never should have been put into role skills and that SoS and LA should have remained as they were. That way, aetherflow could have remained unchanged too.

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I thought Square wanted Role actions to all be optional based on the fight you're doing.

So if Lucid Dreaming is a requirement to not starve in content period, then it failed.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

I thought Square wanted Role actions to all be optional based on the fight you're doing.

So if Lucid Dreaming is a requirement to not starve in content period, then it failed.

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Healers got the short end of the stick with role actions, like half of them aren't really optional if you consider runs won't always go perfect.

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Originally Posted by QooEr

maybe you should learn how to heal. youre overhealing way too much. i BARELY heal in susano and nobody dies. literally one succor or one indom before and after ukehi + whispering dawn is enough. no need to waste your aetherflow stacks on sacred soil which is never needed ever. you can also do a deployment tactics before ukehi and everyone is fine.

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Maybe the fact that I'm even doing this to begin with is the hint on what's going on...I'm overhealing because I'm with a pug healer and they're healing too slow, I have to cover their side else the party wipes. I Sacred Soil to lessen the burden on myself for this, and you can't Deployment Tactics for every Ukehi. I Whispering Dawn during the jump ropes to avoid having to waste more MP unless somebody fails the jump rope. The only time I don't have to do any of this is when I'm running with the FC, but we're not doing that 24/7, I have to do this with pugs sometime.

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Originally Posted by QooEr

with lucid dreaming sch actually has the best mp recovery.
WHM: Lucid Dreaming + assize (10% mp every minute)
AST: Lucid Dreaming + 3 ticks of lucid dreaming (less than 10% every TWO minutes)
SCH: Lucid Dreaming + aetherflow (10% mp every minute) + 3 energy drains every minute + 3 energy drains at the beginning of the fight from prepull aetherflow + dissipation in case of emergency

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Your list is so incomplete it almost screams SCH bias.

• What about WHM's Thin Air? That's 0 MP cost for 12 seconds. If you had to do PoM + Medica I spam you save about 10k MP. And if you had to, you could spam 6 Cure III to save nearly 14k MP.

• AST has Lightspeed which reduces MP cost by 25% for 10 seconds while reducing cast times by 2.5 seconds. If you had to spam 4 Helios then you saved 1440 MP.

• AST can also draw Ewer, which is a base 50 potency refresh for 5 ticks. Extending or Enhancing it can increase this MP regen further.

• With the AST stuff in mind, they can do Extended Ewer + LD + Lightspeed + CO if MP issues are that severe.

Those 3-6 energy Drains used at the start of a pull are usually used for DPS, not MP, so they shouldn't be counted as so unless you can somehow spend enough MP in the first 60 seconds to get the full MP benefit of SIX Energy Drains. Spoiler Alert! Most likely not.

Others have commented on the relative MP cost of an AF stack when not used for Energy Drain so I won't go into that.

EDIT #1: Also forgot that AST has a cheaper toolkit as a whole compared to WHM and SCH, indirectly giving them better MP regen.

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

• AST can also draw Ewer, which is a base 50 potency refresh for 5 ticks. Extending or Enhancing it can increase this MP regen further.

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You're also forgetting Celestial Opposition can also extend not only Ewer, but Lucid Dreaming as well.

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

Your list is so incomplete it almost screams SCH bias.

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if you really want a complete list you should include the fairy - she is maybe not that strong, but heals for 0 mp cost.

I don't foresee the Aetherflow and fairy nerfs being reverted; sorry SCHs, but I think those were a little necessary given your strengths in Heavensward. That said, I in no way think the healers are well-balanced now, and think the Adlo and Bane nerfs were fairly moronic all things considered. Astrologian also needs an overarching nerf, most notably to Balance and their shields in Nocturnal Sect. WHM is a bit bland to me, but aside from some small QoLs involving lilies I think they're in a good spot right now.

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Originally Posted by Tint

if youreally want a complete list you should include the fairy - she is maybe not that strong, but heals for 0 mp cost.

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If we're going to count the fairies as "MP recovery", which was the list that I replied to, then I should then add

• WHMs Benediction/Tetragrammaton/Asylum.

• ASTs Essential Dignity/Collective Unconscious/Earthly Star, and probably Lady of Crowns.

• SCHs Rouse/Aetherpact/Fey Union.

Because all of those abilities have 0 MP cost and do some kind of healing.

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

If we're going to count the fairies as "MP recovery", which was the list that I replied to, then I should then add

• WHMs Benediction/Tetragrammaton/Asylum.

• ASTs Essential Dignity/Collective Unconscious/Earthly Star, and probably Lady of Crowns.

• SCHs Rouse/Aetherpact/Fey Union.

Because all of those abilities have 0 MP cost and do some kind of healing.

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yes. either the full kit, or nothing, or just the mp recovery...
but you were counting Thin Air and the MP reduction from Lightspeed as "MP recovery" tools. but if you do that, you have to count the free healing the fairy offers too.

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Originally Posted by Tint

yes. either the full kit, or nothing, or just the mp recovery...
but you were counting Thin Air and the MP reduction from Lightspeed as "MP recovery" tools. but if you do that, you have to count the free healing the fairy offers too.

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Just mentioning. If you're going at him over Thin Air and Lightspeed, then we got a bit of a situation here.

With Thin air, I get free 650 potency spells. With Lightspeed, I can cheaper, instant 650 potency spells. With fairy, I get a 250 potency spell that doesn't even scale off of mind (Unless I missed a patch.)

actually they buffed cure 2, so it's 700 potency spells for free. thin air lasts 12 seconds and has a 2 mins cooldown. so it's 3500 potency free heals, 4200 with presence of mind. the fairy has a 100% uptime, 250 potency with a 3 second recast. so 5000 potency every mintute of free healing. even if it doesn't scale with mind, that's a lot free healing.
since thin air has a 2 mins cooldown i'll cut the numbers in half:
1750 potency (2100 potency with presence of mind, wich doesn't work well with the cooldown, but however) free cure 2 every mintute
compared to
5000 potency free embrace from your fairy every minute

of course thin air is still better, since you can use it better for burst phases. but the fairy has an 480 potency HoT for burst phases, wich is "free", okay, it uses the fae aether, but what else do you have to spend it on?

i simply can't see the issue. SCH had nearly unlimited mana for years and WHM was suffering from mana problems. now it's the other way around and suddenly it is a problem?

Cure 2 has 700 potency, but cost twice the amount compared to Physick + Embrace, wich have together a 750 potency.

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Originally Posted by Tint

the fairy has a 100% uptime, 250 potency with a 3 second recast.

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I wish SE would put more accurate tooltip information on pet abilities. Embrace isn't even really 250 potency. I don't think it was even an effective 250 potency in HW, despite it reading as 300.

It's even lower now. It's kind of a joke. You can list it as free healing, sure, but it's not fantastic.

WHM did have to be more careful spending MP, but it was also spending MP on the beefiest heals. You got your money's worth. Right now, Scholar is spending more MP for the least effective heals. That ain't right.