The Problem of Hunts and early pulling in 4.0

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Originally Posted by Zakuro_Shishio

Hello,

There is and has been a problem of Hunts and people deliberatly pulling hunts early. This has been an issue in the past and is now more apparent than ever since ARR hunts die in a flash. There is a specific FC in our server particularly that is actively hunting them down, not relaying them anywhere and killing them early. This is effectively turning down alot of players even trying to do hunts and overall kill the experience of alot of the players on our server. I would like it that all the hunts get upscaled to lvl 70 or have a invulnerability state on hunts for about a minute at the fight start. This would kill alot of the toxicity against early pulls.

Has anyone else faced these problems?

Greetings from Siren.

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The only source of Toxicity are the People crying about early pulls

No such thing as a early pull for hunts. They are first come first serve, no one needs to wait for the whole server to show up. If there are enough present to kill it no need to wait.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

*Fails to see where I complained that I missed a hunt..."*

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I didn't fail to see anything... your statement comes off condescending, like you're stating that there's another way but that it is not as efficient/viable. Well of course it isn't, the weekly/daily marks are there to accelerate the acquisition, not replace it entirely. If you didn't mean it that way, you would've been better served saying nothing, as that is really what you added to the conversation if that were the case.

Also, "you" in my statement didn't really mean just you and only you... it is referring to anyone who wants to whine/complain about hunts because people didn't hold every single mark until the entire server got there.

This again. There is no such thing as an "early pull".

I see an S Rank, I shout it linkshell and all. For the next 10 minutes, players are flocking to the pos and partying up. "Pulling in 30" I say. Right then you teleport to the area by coincidence and see players are shouting "pls inv for S Rank" etc. You start asking for an invite now as well. 30 seconds later the hunt gets zerg'd and dies. You rage.

*Proceeds to log onto the forums and vent about "early pulls"*

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Originally Posted by kupokage

This again. There is no such thing as an "early pull".

I see an S Rank, I shout it linkshell and all. For the next 10 minutes, players are flocking to the pos and partying up. "Pulling in 30" I say. Right then you teleport to the area by coincidence and see players are shouting "pls inv for S Rank" etc. You start asking for an invite now as well. 30 seconds later the hunt gets zerg'd and dies. You rage.

*Proceeds to log onto the forums and vent about "early pulls"*

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Originally Posted by Domeric

[3:14 p.m.][4]<Redacted A> A rank Mor Dhona ( 25.1 , 12.2 )
[3:14 p.m.]You have entered a sanctuary.
[3:14 p.m.]Kano Michio: Invite, kohai.
[3:15 p.m.]You have left the sanctuary.
[3:15 p.m.]Redacted B: Dead.

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/10characters

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Originally Posted by Domeric

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If they had enough people why did they shout. If it had died and no one knew it wouldn't even bother them. If ice cream is free at the grocery store and I don't know, I don't get mad. Not thta I would get mad that someone took all the ice cream because it was free. A little sad I didn't get any. The world needs more freezer break downs and more free ice cream.

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Originally Posted by Domeric

Holy crap, I wondered how people kept accurate track of respawn timers.

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I don't know if all servers use it, but here on Excalibur we use Ariyala's to keep accurate track of respawn timers. In case you didn't know, that's an independent website, not a third party tool.

The fact is, every pull is early until you arrive, and then the pull is late. Realistically, the only pull that can possibly be early is one that occurs when there aren't enough people present to kill the mob, resulting in an emergency reset and/or wipe. Applying these standards in the case of ARR S ranks, they're soloable, so it's never an early pull. Some HW S ranks are soloable as well with the rest being easily duoed. Be happy you get a callout and that there are people out there spending their time to push triggers while you craft/gather/xp/run around in circles in Rhalgr's Reach. (note by "you" I'm not specifically calling anyone out here)

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Originally Posted by Thandronen

I didn't fail to see anything... your statement comes off condescending, like you're stating that there's another way but that it is not as efficient/viable. Well of course it isn't, the weekly/daily marks are there to accelerate the acquisition, not replace it entirely. If you didn't mean it that way, you would've been better served saying nothing, as that is really what you added to the conversation if that were the case.

Also, "you" in my statement didn't really mean just you and only you... it is referring to anyone who wants to whine/complain about hunts because people didn't hold every single mark until the entire server got there.

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Did you even notice the word HELP in the first sentence? As in you see the shout/LS announcement for the hunt, you try getting there, but oh look, someone pulled it and it's already dead. Guess those hunt bills will help you until you are able to get to the next one. But I'll leave you to believe what you wish to believe, because well, free world/freedom of speech/can't control others thoughts or actions/whatever you decide to feel.

Complaining about "early pull" should really be made an actionable offense. Maybe then, these people would get it into their heads that it isn't a thing.

there isn't something like "early pull", only "appearing too late"

early pull would be if the A rank or the S rank kill all the players because there were not enough to kill it.
Maybe if SE increase the attacks of all hunt enemies multiple by 10, then we can discuss about "early pulls".

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Originally Posted by Avatre

HELP

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Again, everyone knows that those are there because the game literally guides you to boards to open up hunting in each expansion area... so thanks for adding nothing constructive to the conversation. Stating what you did makes no sense unless you were injecting sarcasm into the statement in a passive/aggressive sort of way.

If you weren't I apologize for assuming you were but it still doesn't change the fact that in this case, you stated nothing but the obvious and in no way contributed to the actual conversation being had which was whining about people "pulling hunt mobs early", not about alternative methods for scoring seals.

I'd also like to point out that if YOU'RE the one finding the hunts, you'll never be late for them. If getting T6 materia is that much a priority to you, then be proactive and go hunt, as opposed to letting others hunt for you. Complaining will not change a thing, the pulls are going to happen when they're going to happen. Instead of pointing the finger at everyone else, /tell or /shout shaming who pulled (which can be considered harassment and is reportable), or just sitting back doing anything in the game other than hunting, I'd suggest you help yourself and get out there! Be faster, and if you can't be faster, be proactive. You aren't going to magically make people wait by complaining, so take action instead: go hunt!

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Originally Posted by RhaegarFFXIFenrir

I\\'d also like to point out that if YOU\\'RE the one finding the hunts, you\\'ll never be late for them. If getting T6 materia is that much a priority to you, then be proactive and go hunt, as opposed to letting others hunt for you. Complaining will not change a thing, the pulls are going to happen when they\\'re going to happen. Instead of pointing the finger at everyone else, /tell or /shout shaming who pulled (which can be considered harassment and is reportable), or just sitting back doing anything in the game other than hunting, I\\'d suggest you help yourself and get out there! Be faster, and if you can\\'t be faster, be proactive. You aren\\'t going to magically make people wait by complaining, so take action instead: go hunt!

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Speaking as someone who has, in the past, been out actively hunting for a hunt mob when it was found at the other end of the zone and didn\\'t make it there in time to even tag it, all of this talk of "just be out hunting!" needs to DIAF.

Of course, the real issue is that hunts are far, FAR too big of a portion of endgame progression for them to function this way in the first place...

The stench of self-entitlement here is intoxicating.

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Originally Posted by Thandronen

Yes, this is a non-issue as far as SE is concerned. Hunts were never intended for people to create linkshells and call everyone out to them before killing.

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It was also not intended for people to have bots/hacks scan the map for them. That -IS- the problem.

Basically the best mechanism to deal with the hunts is for SE to make it unpredictable. Never telegraph that they've appeared, they just appear anywhere on the map that can be reached on foot, which includes within 300 yalms of NPC's that might start attacking them.

This is very interesting because SE already has the stance that "early pulling" and such is not against the ToS. One could argue that someone spawning and not sharing the location of a S rank now disrupts their game play by denying them the chance to complete an achievement. No other single achievement can be directly denied by the actions of another player without breaking the ToS. And as their ToS states, disrupting another player's game play is a punishable offence. This has be something worth addressing even if nothing changes.

The whole issue with people with people cheating to locate S rank hunts could be resolved by simply lowering the draw distance of the S ranks, because they can't track something if it hasn't actually loaded into their client yet.

It doesn't seem to be an issue on my server, though, since I hunt often enough to know who the regulars are, and I haven't encountered any individuals who locate them with unusual speed on a regular basis.

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Originally Posted by Mandudez

One could argue that someone spawning and not sharing the location of a S rank now disrupts their game play by denying them the chance to complete an achievement.

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Except that everyone has an equal chance to complete an achievement if they spawn S rank themselves. S ranks are not exclusive property of anyone. And not getting a mount does not disrupt your gameplay in any way, it's a pure cosmetic item which has no any affect on gameplay, like any cash shop item.

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

Except that everyone has an equal chance to complete an achievement if they spawn S rank themselves. S ranks are not exclusive property of anyone. And not getting a mount does not disrupt your gameplay in any way, it's a pure cosmetic item which has no any affect on gameplay, like any cash shop item.

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It's funny that if this were a minion there would be a 100 page long thread by now but because it's "just a mount" it's no big deal. What other item that is in the game on this version is made near impossible for most of the player base to obtain? What makes this ONE ITEM so special?

Level 70, ARR hunts can be killed solo, so they feel like B rank hunts.

With full gear resets being so frequent many people complained about lack of long-term goals in FFXIV. Well, just once they got one goal for many years ahead and still complain. I wouldn't even call it the rarest mount, many people will get it eventually before 5.0 or 6.0. Compare it to season 3 and 4 Light Party hellhounds which were one-time deal and limited to 30 players per datacenter. Now these will be impossible for most of the player base to obtain, already are actually. So for 99,9999% playerbase mount collection will never be complete. Nobody complains about it, but they complain about a tiger which will go nowhere?...

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

With full gear resets being so frequent many people complained about lack of long-term goals in FFXIV. Well, just once they got one goal for many years ahead and still complain. I wouldn't even call it the rarest mount, many people will get it eventually before 5.0 or 6.0. Compare it to season 3 and 4 Light Party hellhounds which were one-time deal and limited to 30 players per datacenter. Now these will be impossible for most of the player base to obtain, already are actually. So for 99,9999% playerbase mount collection will never be complete. Nobody complains about it, but they complain about a tiger which will go nowhere?...

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The main reason there are no mount hunters is because of the 1.0 goobbue that was literally impossible for any non-1.0 players to obtain. At least the pvp mounts have a chance to be obtained. And that is not the argument here. Because of trolls this mount will take much longer than it should for most players to obtain if they even bother sticking with it.

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Originally Posted by Zakuro_Shishio

There is and has been a problem of Hunts and people deliberatly pulling hunts early.

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just a FYI, there are players who have been solo'n some of those hunts and its not really an issue per say, if you go out to search for it then its only right you have first crack at killing it. its down to you if you want to share its location for others to have a chance at killing it.

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Originally Posted by vio_p

just a FYI, there are players who have been solo'n some of those hunts and its not really an issue per say, if you go out to search for it then its only right you have first crack at killing it. its down to you if you want to share its location for others to have a chance at killing it.

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And how do you think anyone can kill 2k S's and 3k A's if hunts are a free for all?

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Originally Posted by UNDEAD10000

Like some already said there is no such thing as early pulling and what point even do hunts if you need wait whole server for killing sinlge A or S rank, which can take really long and not everyone want wait hours to get all in server to joint the hunt.
Also if hunt enemies level would be upscaled to lvl 70, then there would be no point having hunt board anywhere else then in Stormblood main areas and having hunt enemy be invulnerability is not great idea when it would make killing B rank hunts really annoying when you can't do damage to them at all for a minute.

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Not a single person is saying wait for hours. Most servers have a standard wait time of up to 5 minutes depending on what time of day and how many are out hunting. No need to way over exaggerate just to attempt to prove a point that isn't real.

What would you then suggest be done to balance out hunting and make it fair for the majority and not easily abused by a small minority?

So what's the problem against upscaling all the hunts to level 70? Noone is seriously out there hunting ARR mobs at level 50 in earnest, and it solves the issue of things dying to quickly for anyone to get credit. Leave the hunt-marks you get from the board at their appropriate level for sure, but for the rest of them...?

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

If they had enough people why did they shout.

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This. If you didn't find the S-Rank yourself repost it immidiatly or not at all. Don't go 1-2 mins to the S-Rank first and repost it then, just don't. And only hit it once and not one time to relink and then again whem you arrived...
sometimes I see people posting it again after 2 mins standing there or people really, really late reposting it when they arrive and even people reposting it after it has been pulled.

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Originally Posted by Mandudez

This is very interesting because SE already has the stance that "early pulling" and such is not against the ToS. One could argue that someone spawning and not sharing the location of a S rank now disrupts their game play by denying them the chance to complete an achievement. No other single achievement can be directly denied by the actions of another player without breaking the ToS. And as their ToS states, disrupting another player's game play is a punishable offence. This has be something worth addressing even if nothing changes.

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I pull first chance i get. Not such thing as early pull

One can argue that the people early pull S rank are denying people the chance to get the mount speed up map. the thign is, some people early pull just because they are asshat. They early pull because they can deny the people to get what they want.

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Originally Posted by Charlayy

I pull first chance i get. Not such thing as early pull

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What's the rush though. It's an MMO, you don't play this game alone. It's only a common courtecy to wait a minute so other people can get a credit too.

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

What's the rush though. It's an MMO, you don't play this game alone. It's only a common courtecy to wait a minute so other people can get a credit too.

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And SE now made it almost mandatory to share hunts or each individual person that isn't already close to the mount will never get anywhere close.

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Originally Posted by Mandudez

Not a single person is saying wait for hours. Most servers have a standard wait time of up to 5 minutes depending on what time of day and how many are out hunting. No need to way over exaggerate just to attempt to prove a point that isn't real.

What would you then suggest be done to balance out hunting and make it fair for the majority and not easily abused by a small minority?

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I'd balance it out in the same way that you would balance out at winning a race.

Oh wait...

As to the 5 minute rule, this is a courtesy and nothing more. If you expect it, that is on YOU, NOT everyone else. Is it crappy, certainly. But hunts are first come, first served. You miss out, then you miss out.

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

What's the rush though. It's an MMO, you don't play this game alone. It's only a common courtecy to wait a minute so other people can get a credit too.

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Same statement can be turned around and used against you. Since it's an MMO and it's meant to be played across time, then what's the big deal in waiting to catch the next one? Some people are strapped for time and may not be able to spare five minutes.

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Originally Posted by Mandudez

Not a single person is saying wait for hours. Most servers have a standard wait time of up to 5 minutes depending on what time of day and how many are out hunting.

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Where are these standard wait times per server and other conditions posted? Who agreed them? I sure didn't get the memo. Oh, wait, it's arbitrarily set by you, your own expectation or someone who influenced you into believing them about it. Did SE set it up that way with a 5 minute cooldown once the mark is tagged? Nope. It's first come first served. You talk like pulling a mark immediately is somehow against then rules implied by " Most servers have a standard wait time of up to 5 minutes depending on what time of day and how many are out hunting". That's nonsense, we all know it comes down to the ones who are not there when the mark is pulled complaining about it being pulled before they arrive.


Standard wait time for a hunt indeed, whatever next?

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Originally Posted by Kyuuen

I'd balance it out in the same way that you would balance out at winning a race.

... Is it crappy, certainly. ...

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Why are so many people OK with something so "crappy" as you put it being allowed to exist in this game?

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Where are these standard wait times per server and other conditions posted? Who agreed them? I sure didn't get the memo. Oh, wait, it's arbitrarily set by you, your own expectation or someone who influenced you into believing them about it. Did SE set it up that way with a 5 minute cooldown once the mark is tagged? Nope. It's first come first served. You talk like pulling a mark immediately is somehow against then rules implied by " Most servers have a standard wait time of up to 5 minutes depending on what time of day and how many are out hunting". That's nonsense, we all know it comes down to the ones who are not there when the mark is pulled complaining about it being pulled before they arrive.


Standard wait time for a hunt indeed, whatever next?

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I argue that it SHOULD be against the rules as one player keeps many from having a chance at obtaining a mount (and other titles + achievements). Is that not the definition of breaking the ToS, disrupting another player's game play in ANY way? These people purposefully do this in order to ruin other players game play and we all know it. They don't do it because "finders keepers."

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Originally Posted by Mandudez

Why are so many people OK with something so "crappy" as you put it being allowed to exist in this game?

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Because it's due to this expectancy that this much toxicity and vitriol exists in the first place.

As others have said; due to how hunts were designed, it's not exactly beneficial for people to wait for more people as it can decrease their likelihood for maximized performance potential (unless this has since been removed).

Also because the GMs and even Yoshi-P; correct me if I'm wrong, have essentially stated that it's up to the people doing the hunting to decide what is or is not appropriate. If they choose to shout it out, that's their right. If they choose not to, that's their right.

If you want an equal shot, then be out there hunting. Learn about the resources available to hunters like sites that list spawn locations, spawn conditions, and last killed timers. Stop expecting people to serve you while they're actually hunting (not saying you specifically don't participate, but a lot of people sit around and wait, expecting a shout).

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Originally Posted by Mandudez

I argue that it SHOULD be against the rules as one player keeps many from having a chance at obtaining a mount (and other titles + achievements). Is that not the definition of breaking the ToS, disrupting another player's game play in ANY way?

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No it doesn't. It slows them down sure, but it does not prevent them from anything.

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These people purposefully do this in order to ruin other players game play and we all know it. They don't do it because "finders keepers."

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Prove it. You can't prove intent with thoughts. However someone doing something to reset a mark can be proven, therefore are no where near the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Mandudez

I argue that it SHOULD be against the rules as one player keeps many from having a chance at obtaining a mount (and other titles + achievements). Is that not the definition of breaking the ToS, disrupting another player's game play in ANY way? These people purposefully do this in order to ruin other players game play and we all know it. They don't do it because "finders keepers."

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I'm not sure if you're trolling, but the only part that is against the rules is griefing. That means if you do something to cause it to reset (sometimes repeatedly) by pulling it away from someone (eg a tank in tank stance could do this) then you've griefed the player/players. Someone using a hacking tool to reveal where the hunt target is the second it appears and announce it to the hunt FC/linkshell is only breaking the rules about third party tools, but it gives an advantage to everyone in that FC/linkshell. Hence if you want to do the hunts, periodically go to places it spawns. If you know people are announcing it to a linkshell or just shouting it, then take down notes of when and where it's been seen and you should be able to predict the next place it shows up.

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Originally Posted by Mandudez

I argue that it SHOULD be against the rules as one player keeps many from having a chance at obtaining a mount (and other titles + achievements). Is that not the definition of breaking the ToS, disrupting another player's game play in ANY way? These people purposefully do this in order to ruin other players game play and we all know it. They don't do it because "finders keepers."

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Until SE says anything about it, it's free reign. You can't expect everyone to wait x amount of time.
It's common courtesy yes to wait, but it's not written or set in stone.
People don't like to read/hear this but it is what it is.

I BL the people who get sassy in shout chat about "early pulling." Those people are the real problem -- they're the ones whining and causing drama, not what they call the "early pullers".

I rarely hunt, but I'm grateful for the call out even if I don't make it in time.

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Originally Posted by Xellos2099

One can argue that the people early pull S rank are denying people the chance to get the mount speed up map. the thign is, some people early pull just because they are asshat. They early pull because they can deny the people to get what they want.

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You don't need a S rank for that