How is SAM not going to be bonkers OP in non raid content?

I legit laughed when looking at SAM skills. At face value, those potencies are absolutely absurd. I'm expecting a Nerf at some point, but until then I'm hopping on that dps train before it leaves the station for good lol

What is all this "Samurai won't be able to stay in melee if the boss jumps around" stuff? Sprint is now TP-free.

Also they got a ranged attack. And Starry Eyes!

They won't be nerfing sam damage because they have no utility.

Damage is their utility, you can't nerf the only thing they have or they will be excluded just like a few classes were all of HW.

The potencies don't seem that crazy. Having spent some time fiddling with sam rotations, they hit 2 problems that make comparing raw potency kind of moot.

1. Sam's won't be auto attacking as hard or as often as monks, likely won't be pulling the same AA damage as nin since nin has a stronger built-in damage buff and more attack speed. Sam also has drastically fewer ogcd skill uses compared to drg and nin. The ogcd's sam does have hit really hard to compensate but over a 40 second fight a sam will throw out 2360 potency worth of ogcds while a nin will do 3960 and that's assuming he doesn't generate enough gauge to do both Ten Chi Jin and Bavacakra in 40 seconds. If nin does, then that's actually 4510 ogcd potency. And this is using the highest dps sam rotation we've found that also requires an assumption on how meikyo shisui will work that might not even be true and probably isn't if Perfect Balance is anything to go by.

2. Sam's don't have any long cooldown powerful direct damage boosting self-buffs like drg and mnk do. By which I specifically mean blood for blood/dragon sight and internal release/riddle of fire. So the raw potency numbers are essentially all sam has to make up this gap.

If SAM ends up being as powerful as some seem to think we won't need nerfs, SAMs will just take DRG's role of floor watchers if they can't scale themselves back.

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

The potencies don't seem that crazy. Having spent some time fiddling with sam rotations, they hit 2 problems that make comparing raw potency kind of moot.

1. Sam's won't be auto attacking as hard or as often as monks, likely won't be pulling the same AA damage as nin since nin has a stronger built-in damage buff and more attack speed. Sam also has drastically fewer ogcd skill uses compared to drg and nin. The ogcd's sam does have hit really hard to compensate but over a 40 second fight a sam will throw out 2360 potency worth of ogcds while a nin will do 3960 and that's assuming he doesn't generate enough gauge to do both Ten Chi Jin and Bavacakra in 40 seconds. If nin does, then that's actually 4510 ogcd potency. And this is using the highest dps sam rotation we've found that also requires an assumption on how meikyo shisui will work that might not even be true and probably isn't if Perfect Balance is anything to go by.

2. Sam's don't have any long cooldown powerful direct damage boosting self-buffs like drg and mnk do. By which I specifically mean blood for blood/dragon sight and internal release/riddle of fire. So the raw potency numbers are essentially all sam has to make up this gap.

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I feel like this post is giving NIN and MNK an edge because it sits within their most powerful skills timers, while SAM looks to take much longer to get going, but can keep using its high potency oGCD's consistently, while NIN has more downtime between it's skills.

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Originally Posted by whiteblade89

I legit laughed when looking at SAM skills. At face value, those potencies are absolutely absurd. I'm expecting a Nerf at some point, but until then I'm hopping on that dps train before it leaves the station for good lol

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They can get Midare Setsugekka above the potency of melee's LB1, which sounds absolutely insane, but I'm not sure how much sustained damage they'll realistically have. If that burst is the bulk of their damage, they could get screwed pretty easily by boss mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

They can get Midare Setsugekka above the potency of melee's LB1, which sounds absolutely insane, but I'm not sure how much sustained damage they'll realistically have. If that burst is the bulk of their damage, they could get screwed pretty easily by boss mechanics.

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I think it LOOKS like burst is going to be SAM's strong point, but I think realistically, the lower Potency 25 kinki hissatsu skill is going to be the bigger brunt of SAM's dps. Its all conjecture tho, until we actually get the job to play with.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I feel like this post is giving NIN and MNK an edge because it sits within their most powerful skills timers, while SAM looks to take much longer to get going, but can keep using its high potency oGCD's consistently, while NIN has more downtime between it's skills.

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The only true way would be sheeting out 3 minutes of rotation for Sam and then doing a bunch of tedious math for Nin and I am absolutely not willing to go to that length to make a point. My only aim is to illustrate that you can't just look at 1080 potency midare's and go, "SAM OP" which is what a lot of people in this thread and elsewhere have been doing.

The initial impression of SAM being way too strong DPS wise is my concern as well. I'm sure it'll fit in fine with raid groups, as that was the intent of the high DPS, but for farming groups and non-raid content, I expect we'll be seeing a lot of issues where SAM is just too powerful compared to other DPS classes, which in turn will cause a lot of people to complain about runs being too slow if there aren't SAMs in the party. There will also be those who try and blame non-SAMs for low DPS at times just because the "other dps" has so much damage output, even when the non-SAM player is preforming quite well in their role. In terms of the meta, and raiding, I do think SAM needs the high DPS to maintain a competitive slot there without having many support skills. That being said, full on raiding is roughly 1% of the player base last I heard, so focusing on balancing it for that content, rather than the entire rest of the game, might have been the wrong move. From the initial impressions, it also seems to be focused more on doing heavy damage over a long amount of time, rather than preforming short bursts, so it is a possibility that SAM won't shine as well in short encounters, but it'll definitely be a boss-killer. Of course, everything we have is speculation, hearsay, and theory-crafting based on what we know, rather than what we've played with, so it IS possible that once players get used to new rotations and skills, (probably at least a month or two for the playerbase as a whole), then we might see it balance out a bit more in normal content so that SAM isn't considered so OP it needs a nerf. We'll have to wait until we've had our hands on things for a bit before we can say anything with any real certainty.....

^ Please learn how to form paragraphs and use proper sentence structure without constant run-on sentences. I couldn't even grasp what you were saying because of your block of text.

People will also be more willing to communicate with you if they can understand you.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

^ Please learn how to form paragraphs and use proper sentence structure without constant run-on sentences. I couldn't even grasp what you were saying because of your block of text.

People will also be more willing to communicate with you if they can understand you.

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Funny, because you're literally one of maybe ten people I've ever had complain about it in my 10 years of forum experience, while others can understand my paragraphs with little issue. Perhaps you just need a tutor to teach you how to read something that is over a couple of sentences long. Grammatically speaking, while my sentences aren't considered "proper" for use in formal writing, in that I don't break them up into multiple sentences for every little thing, they're also not considered grammatically incorrect for an informal setting, as I use proper punctuation and phrasing. The only thing that is truly considered a problem is my use of a series of dots at the end of my paragraphs, which is simply a typing signature of mine I've been using since I first started on forums, and it harms nothing other than the feelings of those who believe an informal setting such as internet forums should use the wording and writing styles of an English professor, even when many other posts fail to use so much as proper capitalization or the spell check that is built in to just about everything these days......

Sorry, do I need to use smaller words and sentences for you?

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Originally Posted by Gamer3427

Sorry, do I need to use smaller words and sentences for you?

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Add another person to the complaint list. And the issue isn't reading comprehension, it's eye movement. I have a hard time reading your post because my eye loses its position in that wall which necessitates multiple readings and can be a pain. Note how Adventica is getting likes on her post. Also, no need to be smug about it.

Also the issue with balancing based on "normal" content is because there is no real risk to them. They are face-roll; they are neigh impossible to fail. If people complain about slow runs then well they can apologize and suck it up, get kicked, or leave and suffer the 30 minute penalty. Balance is based on raid content (I'm going to include extreme primals) as it is the only thing that is an actual challenge and where balance would play a part while forming parties.

Honestly, people already deal subpar dps as it is, and by this point people are probably used to it. Besides, it isn't like they can really accuse your dps of being low without admitting to the use of parsers, which you can report then for. Sure they can say things like calculating it by head using the battle log, but that opens them up to so many counter arguments.

Gamer3427 I think you've made a lot of claims in that block of text that aren't going to pan out. But let's set that all aside and let me ask you a question; When was the last time you got into a dungeon and had anyone bemoaning the lack of a monk? Because my answer to that is literally never and monks do crazy personal dps.

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

Gamer3427 I think you've made a lot of claims in that block of text that aren't going to pan out. But let's set that all aside and let me ask you a question; When was the last time you got into a dungeon and had anyone bemoaning the lack of a monk? Because my answer to that is literally never and monks do crazy personal dps.

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They do, but the initial impression of SAM based on the potencies are that it's like MNK, but on steroids, in terms of personal damage. I also wasn't stating anything as fact, just speculating as well, since right now speculation is all we have. We know some of the raw potencies, but we won't know how it all works out in practice until a few weeks from now. I'm just worried about the backlash we might get in the DF/PF if SAM does prove to be too strong compared to other DPS classes in non-raid content. The DF has been rather tame for a few months due to most of the more "intense" players taking a break between patches, but I've seen the DF at its worse, and seen more than a few times when players got kicked due to runs going too slowly, even when they couldn't speed it up much even if they were playing better. Once again, nothing is certain until SB actually hits, but we're here on the forums to speculate and discuss, so we might as well do so based on what we have....

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Originally Posted by Gamer3427

They do, but the initial impression of SAM based on the potencies are that it's like MNK, but on steroids, in terms of personal damage. I also wasn't stating anything as fact, just speculating as well, since right now speculation is all we have. We know some of the raw potencies, but we won't know how it all works out in practice until a few weeks from now.

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To be fair, SAM will probably be better viewed than HW monk just because they do a slashing debuff, which is infinitely more useful than blunt.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

To be fair, SAM will probably be better viewed than HW monk just because they do a slashing debuff, which is infinitely more useful than blunt.

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True enough. Over all, I'm honestly just a bit cautious about SAM as it's been presented so far. It'll probably work out perfectly fine when SB hits, but the idea of a class that relies on pure damage and self-sustainability doesn't really sit well with me since I've seen it done before in a lot of games, and it almost always becomes either game breaking in single player, or a must pick in multiplayer. I do have faith in SE, but past experiences leave me with doubts......

I don't get why people are comparing SAM to MNK. It's blatantly obvious to me that SAM is basically a physical BLM. They have almost no party support and can dish out burst damage.
It requires management of combos and gauge to spend to do anything like BLM manages its stances, Enochian and Ley Lines. It looks like you can't just stand there and spam 1 or 2 WS and do WTFPWNS damage, you need to build it up with the right combos and Iaijutsu first, just like setting up Fire IV and Flare/Foul on BLM.

Both SAM and RDM seems very technical and gimmicky with all the stuff and preparations during their rotations, I wouldn't be worried about seeing SAM everywhere. It'll settle down after a while like it always happens.

(Also the +150% damage for that SAM ability thing appears to be a typo on the English tooltip, other sources like the JP interviews and the likes report a +50%.)

I find it odd that people parrot the philosophy that "casual pve content" is irrelevant to game balance.

First of all time is an extremely valuable resource to everyone. This is true whether people are casuals andhave less time to play or hardcore min/maxers. Being able to run dungeons or solo pve content at a much faster right will definitely impact a good portion of people's decision as to what class to play.

Then there always the psychologic aspect of pve balance. If I am in a dungeon with dps class x next to a SAM and absolutely see him obliterating mobs next to me I will feel like a pathetic weakling. Same thing is true in solo content if it is taking me 30 seconds to kill a mob and a SAM walks by me and two shots his mob next to me. Most players would be pretty enraged at that sight. Playing an MMORPG you want to feel like a badass hero. The psychology pve balance will leave a very bad taste and in people's mouths if the game makes them feel like weaklings.

Now it might end up that SAM do it s not that much higher. However if it is absurdly higher I guarantee there will be an outcry about it. I've seen it plenty of times in other games with "casual pve content". I'm just hoping the devs aren't creating a headache for themselves with current SAM design.
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Originally Posted by MomoOG

I find it odd that people parrot the philosophy that "casual pve content" is irrelevant to game balance.

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Because it is.

Most casual PvE content is over so quickly that major discrepancies between classes either aren't apparent or dont have the chance to create a meaningful impact. It's not a knock against the content its just the reality of design. There are jobs that dont even fully utilize their entire kits in things like Ex dungeons etc because it either isn't worth it or things are dead before they get the opportunity.

The things that are actual issues are likely to be caught first in harder content where it makes much more impact before it will trickle down into casual content, but not the other way around.

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

Being able to run dungeons or solo pve content at a much faster right will definitely impact a good portion of people's decision as to what class to play.

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Maybe? It's possible, but extremely unlikely. I'm going to need a citation on that "good portion of people" if you can.

In a game where you are able to play every single job on the same character, the speed at which you kill level 65 rabbits solo on the hills outside of Kugane is hardly relevant to overall class balance as a whole.

I understand your point about dungeon clear times however this is already a reality depending on party skill / job composition.

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

Then there always the psychologic aspect of pve balance. If I am in a dungeon with dps class x next to a SAM and absolutely see him obliterating mobs next to me I will feel like a pathetic dirt. Same thing is true in solo content if it is taking me 30 seconds to kill a mob and a SAM walks by me and two shots his mob next to me. Most players would be pretty enraged at that sight. Playing an MMORPG you want to feel like a badass hero. The psychology pve balance will leave a very bad taste and n people's mouths if relatively they feel like weaklings.

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Do you currently feel this way about Black Mages? How about Bards? or Machinists? Does it enrage you to watch the speed at which people kill mobs outside of cities? Does it matter in the long run?

Still going to need that "most people" citation.

Do you take personal issue with a BLM doing more AoE damage in a trash pull than a NIN or a MNK?

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

Now it might end up that SAM do it s not that much higher. However if it is absurdly higher I guarantee there will be an outcry about it. I've seen it plenty of times in other games with "casual pve content". I'm just hoping the devs aren't creating a headache for themselves with current SAM design.
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There will be an outcry either way, the player-base isn't a unified hive-mind of one collective opinion. whether the outcry is warranted / based on actual design issues will be the question.

And as stated before: Current listed potencies on abilities are subject to change.

Well since it's pretty much taken Monk's identity of "No raid buffs, all personal damage" it'll probably only be about 5% above Dragooon and 2% above Monk, similar to where Monk was compared to Dragoon.

Also on 4-man's, it's GCD aoe's aren't that huge when you take into account how few buffs they undergo, and it's oGCD aoe's are on some pretty hefty cooldowns. Plus they're all subject to some pretty rapidly diminishing returns, so while it may have large personal Damage it probably won't have exceptionally strong AOE to go along with it. Even if on paper something like Hissatsu: Guren seems huge however compared to Elixir Field or Flare it's kind of marginal as an AOE due to it's long cooldown (Elixir Field has 80 Potency more on the first target over the same two minute time frame and no diminishing returns for each further enemy).

It's apparent capacity to be a single target nuke seems like it'll make it a nightmare in PVP though.

Don't forget everything is subject for change and there is always the chance of nerfing OP jobs at some later patch.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

Well since it's pretty much taken Monk's identity of "No raid buffs, all personal damage" it'll probably only be about 5% above Dragooon and 2% above Monk, similar to where Monk was compared to Dragoon.

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Again, I'm gonna say I hope it's higher than that. Doesn't have to be super WTF OP amounts higher than DRG/MNK/NIN, but it should be a good amount higher. We saw what happened to Monk when it was 2-5% higher, it wasn't enough to make up for the loss in raid utility. Samurai should, if played optimally, be able to drop the mic so hard that they can get close to matching the raid utility of the other guys just on damage alone, even if it doesn't exceed the optimal setup. Enough so that people outside of the most min/max of groups who will obviously go for the most optimal setup period will go, "eh it's fine" and still take them into raids.

maybe wait to have the game and the right number for judge? no? because soo far people are judging from not definitive value of skill...
serioulsy.

Samurai is going to be an issue. There is a 11 minute vid from IGN where a 4-man is in a dungeon. That PLD is in Shield Oath the whole time just spamming the hell out of his RoH combo and Flash and that SAM took hate half a dozen times. That PLD was trying bless him but even with all his tools he just couldn't keep the hate off that SAM.

The challenge for Samurai will be in learning when to strike and where. To pay attention to their tanks and the other dps in the room. And to pick when to strike and when to stay their blades..... until we all get use to it and then go ham guys.

I think SAM will get nerfed a little bit if/when players manage to make it do much more dps than the devs intended it to do. Kinda like how NIN was when it was 1st released.

Either way, I'm sure jobs will be nerfed and buff throughout the course of Stormblood.

Nerfing jobs is a quick way to force people to just play something else. This is also the reason I will wait to purchase SB, I want to see if it's going to be a nerf extravaganza like wow, in which case I will be happy to have saved my money.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

Nerfing jobs is a quick way to force people to just play something else. This is also the reason I will wait to purchase SB, I want to see if it's going to be a nerf extravaganza like wow, in which case I will be happy to have saved my money.

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Not every class can be on top. Perfect balance just isn't truly feasible. A little bit of class loyalty can go a long way with the natural ebb and flow of nerfs/buffs. Sometimes you're on the bottom, sometimes you're in the middle and sometimes you're on top. All you can do is realize that playing the top dog 100% of the time isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Don't care if sam is gonna be op or up .. gonna play it no matter what .. been waiting forever for the class to let "balance" ruin it.

But well most of the time "new" classes are op or up at release .. at least thats what i'm used to in mmorpgs lol.

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Originally Posted by ErikMynhier

Samurai is going to be an issue. There is a 11 minute vid from IGN where a 4-man is in a dungeon. That PLD is in Shield Oath the whole time just spamming the hell out of his RoH combo and Flash and that SAM took hate half a dozen times. That PLD was trying bless him but even with all his tools he just couldn't keep the hate off that SAM.

The challenge for Samurai will be in learning when to strike and where. To pay attention to their tanks and the other dps in the room. And to pick when to strike and when to stay their blades..... until we all get use to it and then go ham guys.

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The SAM in that video was bad. The only times he pulled off the tank that I saw are when he was attacking a completely different target.