Are tanks a scapegoat for performance issues?

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

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I would be happy if everyone could get HALF of their DPS potential in DF runs. That's how bad it is!

I am routinely top DPS in Shield Oath in dungeons. That's not because people are just not perfect. It's because they're bad.

While true some will blame either healer or tank, fact is there are also a large amount of bad tanks out there.
Bad all around really

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

I would be happy if everyone could get HALF of their DPS potential in DF runs. That's how bad it is!

I am routinely top DPS in Shield Oath in dungeons. That's not because people are just not perfect. It's because they're bad.

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Ok that sounds rather bad. Though i remember when HW came out how Warrior would pretty much out damage most dps out there, lol

On the other end of the spectrum, I just got tri-commended + complimented (first time one of those headed my way) for something as simple as constantly interrupting the exploding red-gummies in Sohm Al (Hard). It was nice and all, but as a PLD, I would have expected this to be easy/standard practice. I have a stun with no CD and a spammable AoE emnity generator... Why wouldn't I be stunning those massive AoE exploding gummies inbetween dodging delayed skillshots? In my mind, first thing I thought of was "I'm guessing you previously got tanks who don't bother doing this" - probably the type who regard it as DPS job alone to 'burst them down'. That works, too, if they've the gear for it - but as has been mentioned a few times, group content is a group effort - sometimes it all wordlessly clicks, most of the time there's some combined cocktail of problems that are making everyone elses jobs more difficult, thus round-and-round the circle goes until roles start blaming. Still, it's typically easier to blame the tank at the end of the day (and that's not saying it can't be justified, or that there aren't godawful tanks out there... But there's godawful 'everything' out there).

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Originally Posted by spelley

Literally everyone blames everyone else, when it's usually a combination. DPS forgets a mechanic or eat an AOE trying to eek out damage, Tank is a little overzealous with pulling enemies while with undergeared/inexperienced DPS and/or Healer. Healer stays in Cleric Stance too long or doesn't compensate for Tank/DPS mistakes. The best players are able to objectively review their own play and point out their own mistakes.

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It's funny...minus maybe one or two times ever, the only time I ever see anyone admitting they screwed something up in group chat is because I did the admitting.

I see plenty of people goofing up plenty of stuff (two DPS I had in Aery...I am talking to you), and I hardly ever say anything other than something about the mechanics (kills bees/dogs quick, use blasting device, run behind pillar, etc)...but where admitting your own goof ups is concerned, I seem to be a very rare individual who is both a) not perfect and b) aware of not being perfect.

And based on what happened in my first Limitless Blue (H) run ever...yeah, even when everyone screws up, it's my fault apparently. OT blue add, no no bad tank, focus green. Focus green, no no bad tank, OT blue add. DPS gets knocked off platform, bad tank. Nobody activates shield, bad tank. Activate harpoon, bad tank. Don't activate harpoon, bad tank. I had one of those awesome DPS'ers who just fixated on yelling at me specifically for an entire trial. And oh btw, I said "my first time here" when the trial began...which I guess means "please heap your abuse on me." It was really enjoyable.

You're not alone - I've happily put my hand up many times and just outright said "My bad", moreso when tanking seeing as a screw-up in that department is infinitely more noticeable than a Healer or DPS (though that doesn't mean I hide when playing other roles). Admitting a fault is just as easy as basic civility or politeness - but they're not very meta in an online world where anonymous toxicity rules the roost. The only time I bite back after admitting something wrong, is when someone who has been f'ing up in equal (or worse) ways tries to play the 'if we focus on their mistakes, nobody will notice mine' game. That's when I decide a respectful approach is no longer worthwhile. In a lot of cases, problems go in circles and aren't always centric to one specific thing - you can be sure everyone is making a mistake in one way or another at the end of the day. We're not machines, so if you're willing to throw someone into the fire for theirs, be prepared to burn for yours along the way. Give and take and all that.

Yeah, it's kind of an interesting topic. Tanks are easily the most visible role. If you mess up or don't really know what you're doing everyone notices right away. You really do need to be able to take criticism. There's an art to both giving and taking criticism and I've seen it go bad on both ends. There are ways to foster good communication and trust so that people are more likely to give you good constructive criticism. There are also ways in game that you can limit your exposure. Play with friends for difficult content, do research on encounters, have multiple roles available so you can get different points of view. But sooner or later you're eventually going to make a mistake and someone's going to be nasty about it.

I try to do those things and still, I know myself and I know I don't, in general, handle criticism as well as I'd like. I love tanking and my favorite healer tells me I'm her favorite tank so I think I must be good at it. I still haven't set foot in a 24-man raid as a tank in this game because I don't want to have to deal with that.

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Originally Posted by Dreggit

One of the faults noted in another thread notes that tanks are expected to know the content they que for even if it's their first run. Sometimes they are asked to pull more than they're comfortable with and blamed if they die because they're undergeared. There's many possible reasons but that's not what they threads about.

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i hear this ALL the time and in my 10 years of playing MMOs I can tell you I have never had anyone get upset with me for not knowing a fight unless I was in a group that was doing content regularly and preparing for each fight we would do.

if someone gives you grief just brush it off lol it's not like they can do shit about it besides run you through it until you guys get it

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

On the other end of the spectrum, I just got tri-commended...

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In fairness to the nicer DF folks out there, I have now run Vault 4 times in my pursuit of dinging 60, and have gotten 9 comms out of 4 runs. And to be honest, I don't think I was doing much besides normal bread and butter tanking with my "must fat finger and miss a rotation in every pull" style that I am hoping to patent and make video guides for. =)

Ser Charizard (tm, Mizzteq) fight has never looked like anything besides straight chaos and nonsense, and somehow I keep getting player comm'd. No idea, but /shoutout to all those kind DF folks who are nice to me.

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Originally Posted by Delorean

i hear this ALL the time and in my 10 years of playing MMOs I can tell you I have never had anyone get upset with me for not knowing a fight unless I was in a group that was doing content regularly and preparing for each fight we would do.

if someone gives you grief just brush it off lol it's not like they can do shit about it besides run you through it until you guys get it

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I actually have gotten grief for it. I forget what encounter it was, but I zoned in and did the usual "Hey, I'm new but it's cool, I watched a video." Then they said something about how screwed we were. I want to say it was Titan HM in Duty Finder back when that was still something really difficult, and that's why it came off as an actual complaint and not a poorly made joke.

Either way, I mean... it's not a common thing and the other roles are supposed to be looking at stuff before going in, too. They're just better at hiding it when they don't.

people wouldnt even let me do titan HM during 2.0 because I was Warrior lmao

buuuuuuuuuut here i am =| people are annoying no matter what role you play

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In fairness to the nicer DF folks out there, I have now run Vault 4 times in my pursuit of dinging 60, and have gotten 9 comms out of 4 runs. And to be honest, I don't think I was doing much besides normal bread and butter tankin

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Not to be mean, but my post referenced people commending for a reason. If you've no idea 'why' then you can safely assume people just default-commend the tank (or the Healer) - whoever is earlier in the alphabet. I'm under no illusions that the only reason I have as many commendations as I do over my short career is because I primarily Heal or Tank when running content - NOT because I Healed or Tanked particularly well. That post of mine you're referring to was the first time someone actually typed out why they hit that commend-button - and what made me laugh is that the reason given was something I would have expected ANY Paladin would have done in my shoes. Take whatever commendations you can - just don't be shocked if the reverse sometimes happen (getting none, ever, for prolonged periods of time).

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As for the Vault, I loved it when I went there for the first time. Whole place gave off a Dark Souls kinda vibe (all the giant armours and giant knights in a dimly lit cathedral etc). I assume you're on about the last boss, though I'm not sure which mechanics you're not getting for any of them - they're pretty self-explanatory for the most part. Other reason I loved vault was the fact it had a noticable damage spike (the first time this happened was entering level 50 Hard dungeons for the first time), whereas going from the 50's to Vault stings pretty hard if you've not been maintaining your gear while levelling. Hoping we get that in Stormblood so even the overgeared folks get some kind of challenge.

Just blame everybody, even yourself, makes things a lot easier

I like to make things simple

Wipe because boss keep hitting Other beside tank? Obviously tank fault
Wipe because dps keep getting hit from avoidable red circle? Dps fault
Wipe because party hp bar keep getting depleted? Healer fault

Boss at the vault is mostly dps (and healer) problems, a lot of their attack is multi target/aoe so it doesnt matter if tank doing back to wall style, dps will still getting hit left and right, the boss fight at the vault is mostly about how good you are at dodging stuff

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

Not to be mean, but my post referenced people commending for a reason. If you've no idea 'why' then you can safely assume people just default-commend the tank (or the Healer) - whoever is earlier in the alphabet. I'm under no illusions that the only reason I have as many commendations as I do over my short career is because I primarily Heal or Tank when running content - NOT because I Healed or Tanked particularly well. That post of mine you're referring to was the first time someone actually typed out why they hit that commend-button - and what made me laugh is that the reason given was something I would have expected ANY Paladin would have done in my shoes. Take whatever commendations you can - just don't be shocked if the reverse sometimes happen (getting none, ever, for prolonged periods of time).

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I already go long stretches without comms, and that's why the Vault kinda stands out for me. Could be coincidence, could be on purpose, who knows. I was just trying to give a hat tip to the nicer folks in DF who may or may not underperform but DON'T take it out on the tank.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

As for the Vault, I loved it when I went there for the first time. Whole place gave off a Dark Souls kinda vibe (all the giant armours and giant knights in a dimly lit cathedral etc). I assume you're on about the last boss, though I'm not sure which mechanics you're not getting for any of them - they're pretty self-explanatory for the most part. Other reason I loved vault was the fact it had a noticable damage spike (the first time this happened was entering level 50 Hard dungeons for the first time), whereas going from the 50's to Vault stings pretty hard if you've not been maintaining your gear while levelling. Hoping we get that in Stormblood so even the overgeared folks get some kind of challenge.

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I think that's what it is - a big spike up in damage. I maintain my gear as best I can, and I use cooldowns and all that, but that last boss hurts. It's a surprise to DF groups I think is all I am saying, and there seems to be a decent amount of chaos and running about. I've wiped on that boss twice ( in 2 different runs), but for the most part, it's just a good solid fight that reminds you the game has gotten tougher. Point is, with the dmg uptick, the tougher mechanics and me still learning...my Vault DF groups have been pretty cool to me, and it stood out enough to mention it.

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Wipe because boss keep hitting Other beside tank? Obviously tank fault
Wipe because dps keep getting hit from avoidable red circle? Dps fault
Wipe because party hp bar keep getting depleted? Healer fault

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Problem with this sort of thinking is that it completely excludes the circle effect. For example, let's say DPS is being sub-par (beit experience, gear, rotations, or because a tank sucks at positioning) which makes for longer fights, which pushes healers towards MP concerns, or (in terms of above mentioned dungeons where everything and their mother is doing gross AoE damage every ability) increases the risk of people just flat out dying to mechanics, whether they're failing at dodging or not - and this not being helped by, say, a tank that isn't using mitigations on a rotation thus the Healer has even more to worry about, etc. etc.

In short, it's a group effort, and wipes don't always happen as a result of an obvious 'absolute'.