[Suggestion] Solving the "Housing Problem"

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Originally Posted by Naunet

That literally describes housing. XD

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I said a HABIT. Habit requires repetition. SE haven't made gigantic mess ups like this numerous times.

EDIT: unless you want to get overly pedantic and count most of 1.0, but I think we can all agree that was a very special case.

I'm interested in your response to the first half of my post, if you'd care to share it. I'm not sure how much you know about WildStar's housing, as I don't find the comparisons to Garrisons to be at all... well, comparable.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

I'm interested in your response to the first half of my post, if you'd care to share it. I'm not sure how much you know about WildStar's housing, as I don't find the comparisons to Garrisons to be at all... well, comparable.

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I can't comment on Wildstar housing as I have never experienced it.

I was explaining why WildStar's housing is not comparable to Garrison's. You're worried about losing connection to the world and community with instanced housing, and I was pointing out that this doesn't happen with a fully fleshed-out housing system.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

I was explaining why WildStar's housing is not comparable to Garrison's. You're worried about losing connection to the world and community with instanced housing, and I was pointing out that this doesn't happen with a fully fleshed-out housing system.

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It's not just about whether it's fully fleshed out or not, it's also about what direction it goes. Garrisons were very fleshed out and had a lot going on with them, but this didn't guarantee enjoyment. I have first hand experienced instanced housing/garrisons/caravans/whatever go very very wrong. Naturally I'm concerned about the idea of going through such huge disappointment again.

I seriously doubt SE will do what Blizzard did, but this doesn't mean they won't do something else wrong instead. I hope they will be very careful if they do bring in something drastically different. Great ideas don't always become great content.

I think we should forget WoW's garrisons, they were never designed as player housing but more as a throwback to WoW's RTS roots. WoW's devs repeatedly said they did not see any place for player housing in the game.

The second point I'd like to make is this, I don't think anyone is suggesting we scrap the wards. I sincerely doubt Square would even consider it after they have spent so much time and effort creating them. However, there are huge issues with the present system: only a tiny proportion of players can buy a house and even with the demolition timer, many of the wards are dead. What we are suggesting is expanding the apartment system so they offer more space and have as much utility as a house, or simply that they add instanced player-housing as an option.
Is there a chance they might get it wrong? Of course, but the developers have definitely proven themselves willing to listen and make changes. We already have a flawed system, with the majority of players unable to buy a house. Not doing anything about this because the devs might not come up with the perfect solution straight away, isn't going to improve things.

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Originally Posted by Solarra

I think we should forget WoW's garrisons, they were never designed as player housing but more as a throwback to WoW's RTS roots.

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They were not intended as player housing but did fill some of the roles player housing does. My concern about instancing all player housing is the isolation it causes. There are obviously ways to mitigate this, but Blizzard were hardly new to the mmo scene and still managed to forget the game thrives on players being together. I see people in this thread and others saying things like "SE should scrap everything and make an instance per house" whereas I think the game would benefit much more if SE found a way to make housing available to more players while still keeping places like wards in the game.

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Originally Posted by Solarra

What we are suggesting is expanding the apartment system so they offer more space and have as much utility as a house

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I have said similar a few times now. The first step SE really need to make is to address how basic apartments are. I think nearly every player expected a balcony where you could do a little gardening and decorating, given that apartments irl often have them. But they're not apartments really. They're just fc rooms outside of fc houses. Everything is the same and you basically cough up an extra 200k for not needing to be in a fc. Really not worth the money.

I think we haven't seen apartments improve since because they were added within the limitations of the wards. I don't know the tech behind it but I think we can safely assume SE would have added more and/or bigger apartments if it was possible from the beginning. I sincerely hope that they will do more than just add Shirogane and the fc house transfer in Stormblood. I think we can hope they are changing and updating the tech behind the wards given that the fc house transfer system would most likely require this. So maybe soon we will see really big changes. /crosses fingers

[QUOTE=Penthea;4113082 Whatever there is to be said of SE, I haven't yet seen them make a habit of introducing massive features that don't align with what players want or need.[/QUOTE]

Just off the top of my head Tokens, scrips, weekly lockouts, diadem, vermillion, GC restrictions, refusal to design around storage capacity, specialist recipes, hunts.

I quit WoW a long time ago. But I am told garrisons allowed better leveling and gathering. So no point to leave. No one is asking them to put mining nodes in houses. Next Balmung is a huge server the world isn't that full. You can count the number of players in some zone on your hands. People already afk congregate in a few spots. "Oh No, less people afk in idylshire and uldah." The open world thing is dead once you reach max level. We might as well make people walk to each instance before they can enter.

Let us also not forget the cross world party finder. Grouping with players you will never see. So SE can keep dead servers open. That's immersive as well.

Unless SE has some magical fix that makes the current system FAIR for all players. Not seeing another player when I am at a house is not much of a loss.

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

Just off the top of my head Tokens, scrips, weekly lockouts, diadem, vermillion, GC restrictions, refusal to design around storage capacity, specialist recipes, hunts.

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Some of those are a matter of opinion and none of those are major expansions features on the scale that WoW garrisons were. Garrisons were central to the WoD expansion, it was literally the flagship feature. Something on a similar scale would be SE messing up flying, seeing as that is a major feature of the HW expansion.

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

I quit WoW a long time ago. But I am told garrisons allowed better leveling and gathering. So no point to leave.

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There was a point in leaving up until you reached max lvl. WoW's end game has always mostly been about going into instances. The problem people had with garrisons was that players idled at their garrison instead of a hub when they were queueing for them, so places looked empty. It's not just about whether garrisons offered a garden for herbs and all the rest, it was also about how the majority of max lvl players chose to spend their time outside of instances in there. Of course you could definitely argue that Blizzard were at fault for not giving players a good reason to idle elsewhere.

Of course instanced housing can be done right without isolating players, but my point is that instancing by nature is isolation. Unless SE are careful about it, instanced housing could just replace one problem with another. Yea maybe I'm being too negative about the idea of it, but I was excited as hell for garrisons and it ended up being one of the worst things to happen to WoW. So yea the idea of making all housing in the game instanced just irks me because of it.

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

Let us also not forget the cross world party finder. Grouping with players you will never see. So SE can keep dead servers open. That's immersive as well.

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This really has very little to do with housing. Even less so than WoW garrisons. I mean we may as well start arguing that a line of blue dots at the entrance of a zone isn't immersive.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

This really has very little to do with housing. Even less so than WoW garrisons. I mean we may as well start arguing that a line of blue dots at the entrance of a zone isn't immersive.

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The point is you seem to desire to see other players. You don't like players hanging out inside instances. The MMO of real communities were dead the instant they made cross server groups. What does it matter if you see someone standing in front of a house? Core game play is instanced players just don't have to see each other. You seem to think game play should be designed around the idea that players should idle next to each other.

Players in instanced housing has nothing to do with housing or garrisons. If gameplay is designed that open world interaction is pointless. Which it is currently in FF14. Once you have reached a certain gil amount you would never have to see another player outside an instance. Hell Once MSQ has everything unlocked you have zero reason to be outside. That is not the fault of instanced housing.

Instanced housing doesn't need to be done right. You have an instance, players have a house period. If developers can't convince you to go outside that is a game play flaw not a house flaw.

Why are we still talking about Garrisons when Garrisons are not housing? >_>;

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Why are we still talking about Garrisons when Garrisons are not housing? >_>;

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Maybe because people keep mentioning it :P and also maybe because some people entirely misunderstand my comparison with instanced housing and garrisons.

Although now someone else has brought up duty finder, so I guess we can talk about that now as well.

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

Instanced housing doesn't need to be done right. You have an instance, players have a house period. If developers can't convince you to go outside that is a game play flaw not a house flaw.

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I realise I have double posted now but I can't believe someone has just said this. Instanced housing doesn't need to be done right? What?

Well if that's what you want your wish has already come halfway. Apartments are instanced and they're most certainly not done right at all.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Maybe because people keep mentioning it :P and also maybe because some people entirely misunderstand my comparison with instanced housing and garrisons.

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The paranoid, never-trusting-SE part of my brain is worried that SE is going to see all this talk about Garrisons and decide that's what we want player housing to be. "Oh, you want more special features!"

No. Just to be clear, SE, in case you are listening... No, I just want a massive decor limit, freely manipulated XYZ axis placing, resizing of decor, and no more stupid restrictions on what can and cannot be dyed.

I've said this several other places before, but I think the problem is going to be.. when they finally DO give us as many wards as we need? Not enough medium/large houses. Everyone I know and I mean everyone, gets a small house to start, is happy for like a month or two, then decides. Hey. I need a bigger place. And I don't really blame them.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

The paranoid, never-trusting-SE part of my brain is worried that SE is going to see all this talk about Garrisons and decide that's what we want player housing to be. "Oh, you want more special features!"

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Considering every post about garrisons in this thread is very negative, I seriously doubt it. I don't think SE are that dim.

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Originally Posted by Acilith

I've said this several other places before, but I think the problem is going to be.. when they finally DO give us as many wards as we need? Not enough medium/large houses. Everyone I know and I mean everyone, gets a small house to start, is happy for like a month or two, then decides. Hey. I need a bigger place. And I don't really blame them.

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If they removed restrictions like how many garden patches and vendors you can have then having a small wouldn't be so bad. Certainly for fcs the problem isn't always the actual size of the house, but actually the cap on certain furnishings.

Or if they brought in a system in which you can build any house size on a plot you own. Obviously wards would need to have very different design to facilitate this. If this feature was in instanced housing it certainly would make it very attractive.

I've brought up the idea of modifying the wards, so if you do have a small plot you could just 'upgrade it' if you wanted to. But nobody seemed to like the idea at all and said it was impossible, lol. It's totally not about garden patches and vendors, it's entirely about not having enough space to decorate.

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Originally Posted by Acilith

I've brought up the idea of modifying the wards, so if you do have a small plot you could just 'upgrade it' if you wanted to. But nobody seemed to like the idea at all and said it was impossible, lol. It's totally not about garden patches and vendors, it's entirely about not having enough space to decorate.

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In the current state of wards it is impossible. The plot sizes are proportionate to the sizes of the houses they're intended for. You couldn't fit a mansion on a small plot. All plots sizes would either need to be the size of large plots, or the plot size would change depending on the size of the house you built. Either would require large changes to wards. I would prefer this though. It kind of sucks being stuck with whatever happened to become available if you could afford to buy much more.

Speaking as a fc leader, it's not just about decorating at all. We were fortunate enough to get a medium house so we're doing pretty well, but we still cannot have all the crafting facilities or vendors. Only a mansion can, and not only are they very expensive but compared to medium and small houses, there are very few.

Yea I know crafting facilities are useful only up to lvl 50, but I have a lot of new players in my fc and they are using them. Even I don't have all my crafters past 50. So the cap in this case does matter to us.

I'm not sure I understand the complaint many of you have about housing. You want the largest plots for the largest mansion to hold all your stuff, but there aren't enough large plots and the one's out there are too expensive. Gee, sounds like real life. I'm not in a FC, so for me (crafter/gatherer) a personal house is a necessity. I started with a small house, went to a medium, and just got a large first-class plot because NOBODY WANTED TO PAY FULL PRICE! So, while you're playing a waiting game watching the value go down, I bought what you wanted but didn't want to pay for. Yeah, paying 50m kinda dents the pocket, but what else am I going to spend gil on? As Ashe (xAshe10x) told me once when I was sniveling about the cost of large plots (yeah, I did it too) "you'll make that back in 3 months growing crops". BTW, my server typically has 10-15 smalls and 3-5 mediums and 1 or 2 large for sale every week. If you're a newer FC or beginning player, isn't a small house better than nothing?

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Originally Posted by Maxsdad

So, while you're playing a waiting game watching the value go down, I bought what you wanted but didn't want to pay for.

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Um nobody in this thread said they were hanging around waiting for the price to go down. I don't know why you're rubbing it in our faces that you did something that none of us said we wouldn't do. Literally people only remarked their cost and availability. Not that they cba to buy it.

When I mentioned large plots being so few I was mostly referring to the fact that on my server camping every day for months wouldn't guarantee finding a large plot that became available due to the demolition timer. Yea you could buy it from a player, but like most people I'd rather not risk my gil or my account for that. As for the cost it was just a remark on the price compared to medium and small. I was most certainly not complaining while sitting at a placard for an unclaimed large plot QQing about my gil when I had enough to buy but didn't because I was tight with my cash, like you seem to imagine some of us doing.

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Originally Posted by Maxsdad

I'm not sure I understand the complaint many of you have about housing. You want the largest plots for the largest mansion to hold all your stuff, but there aren't enough large plots and the one's out there are too expensive. Gee, sounds like real life. I'm not in a FC, so for me (crafter/gatherer) a personal house is a necessity. I started with a small house, went to a medium, and just got a large first-class plot because NOBODY WANTED TO PAY FULL PRICE! So, while you're playing a waiting game watching the value go down, I bought what you wanted but didn't want to pay for. Yeah, paying 50m kinda dents the pocket, but what else am I going to spend gil on? As Ashe (xAshe10x) told me once when I was sniveling about the cost of large plots (yeah, I did it too) "you'll make that back in 3 months growing crops". BTW, my server typically has 10-15 smalls and 3-5 mediums and 1 or 2 large for sale every week. If you're a newer FC or beginning player, isn't a small house better than nothing?

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Well on servers like Gilgamesh/Balmung/Chocobo/Shinryu? There are NO HOUSES. NONE.If you want to get one from another player? 50mil for a large? More like 300. 20mil for a medium? More like 150mil. Small? 50mil. I'm not even kidding.I totally understand the outrage, and honestly even though I have a house I still get twitchy when I think about it. Most of the game's population is on these larger servers yet they get the same treatment as dead servers? And just making that amount of gil on these populated servers with all that competition? WHEW. Have fun making 50mil in three weeks with your garden. I am lucky to make 400k off of four thavnarian onions. Even trying to craft stuff here is rough, since people will charge less for the finished product than the materials even cost.
(The prices I listed are Balmung prices btw, I want to say Girugamesh is a bit more forgiving, maybe 10-20mil for a small?)

Why should we have to sacrifice the rest of our gaming experience just because we want to access part of the game? They need to work with the population:house ratio. If there's servers out there with empty wards yet, why do they even HAVE them? Why isn't that space being used to accommodate the rest of the game?

I know a lot of people harp on and on about 'lol balmung problems'. Just because it's not a problem for you doesn't mean it's not a problem for other people. A LOT of other people. Maybe like 3x your total server population of people.

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Originally Posted by Maxsdad

Gee, sounds like real life.

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This is a video game. Why would you want to replicate a system that is terribly unequal in real life in a freaking video game?

Though you clearly haven't paid attention to what this thread is about, because only your first sentence is accurate - you don't understand what our complaints are.

1 Plot per player is no where near strict enough.. IMO it should be 1 per Account!
allow all your account characters to access it and use it's facilities.. the fact players are allowed to own more than one is complete BS and punishes new players that should have access to all the games meta content without restriction and expanding wards to an infinite value. spawnable once a ward main and sub divisions are filled.
It's not like Square don't have the funds to create the a server infristructure to maintain this and take your thumbs outta your arse and get this done!

as someone who just got a medium house(FC) and is planning on moving it when shirogane hits, the reason we aimed for a medium was because smalls themselves are CRAMPED for more than one person. With 15 people in a room, smalls feel tiny.

So Communities are up on the PTR in WildStar, and what the hell, SE. Get your act together!

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Originally Posted by Naunet

So Communities are up on the PTR in WildStar, and what the hell, SE. Get your act together!

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Just not quite functional yet. It will be interesting to see how well it works out with 5x the outdoor limit loading at once for most people.

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Originally Posted by Dustytome

Just not quite functional yet. It will be interesting to see how well it works out with 5x the outdoor limit loading at once for most people.

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Well they have already prefaced it by stating that people with weaker computers will likely experience slower loading times going into a Community with a large number of decor. TBH that doesn't bother me in the slightest though, because the amazing possibilities of this feature far outweigh an inconvenience of having to wait a minute for all the decor to load. xD

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Originally Posted by Naunet

So Communities are up on the PTR in WildStar, and what the hell, SE. Get your act together!

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How about giving a tldr of what this actually is? I'm not really going to invest my time watching videos about a game I don't intend to play, and I doubt I'm the only one.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

How about giving a tldr of what this actually is? I'm not really going to invest my time watching videos about a game I don't intend to play, and I doubt I'm the only one.

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Players will be able to link several of their personal plots together to make a "neighborhood" sort of. Which would be really great here. A lot of people don't want instanced housing because they want to have a neighborhood around them.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

Players will be able to link several of their personal plots together to make a "neighborhood" sort of. Which would be really great here. A lot of people don't want instanced housing because they want to have a neighborhood around them.

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This sounds great. Also I'm getting the impression that housing is quite central to Wildstar. That certainly isn't the case in FFXIV, at least not yet anyway.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

How about giving a tldr of what this actually is? I'm not really going to invest my time watching videos about a game I don't intend to play, and I doubt I'm the only one.

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A massive plot that links 5 individual plots (which can be built up separately from your own house, or you can import your housing plot directly to it). The skybox, music, ground terrain, etc are all customizable per plot, and the "connecting pathway" parts have their own separate customization for each. It can be built upon seamlessly, with each plot having its own 2500 outside/2500 inside decor limit, plus 2500 for the connecting pathway.

Oh and you can connect your alts to the Community plot if you want, so you can either choose to link up with other players or build something entirely on your own. With the sheer size of it, you can get pretty close to creating your own zone.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

This sounds great. Also I'm getting the impression that housing is quite central to Wildstar. That certainly isn't the case in FFXIV, at least not yet anyway.

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Housing is pretty much what carries Wildstar anymore. It's hands down the best housing system of any MMO.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

Housing is pretty much what carries Wildstar anymore. It's hands down the best housing system of any MMO.

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And the raiding. Both are second-to-none in that game, IMO.