No New Healer Job In Stormblood?

Dancer would make an awesome off healer, IMO. Make it happen SE.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

Dancer would make an awesome off healer, IMO. Make it happen SE.

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How would you see it working? :o

There is no way I would want to be in melee range have to worry about not getting hit myself AND have to worry about peoples HP. :x I see more as a melee/support, like ninja or brd and such.

Would it be backline and just kinda dance and then heal? Hehe with the trailer..if the red girl IS a dancer..I don't really see that in a healer role.

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Originally Posted by Iromi

There is no way I would want to be in melee range have to worry about not getting hit myself AND have to worry about peoples HP. :x I see more as a melee/support, like ninja or brd and such.

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IME it's usually not any more dangerous to be in melee range on monsters. Heck, on a lot of bosses (namely any that use a conal attack centered on random people...) I find melee range to be the SAFEST place to be.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

It's more like WHM < AST in all raiding content.

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Just did look into the rankings on fflogs of how many healers are listed in A12S (Kills only).

1. SCH: 1940
2. WHM: 1539
3. AST: 1337

WHM doesn't seem to be so death like everybody is claiming here.

I think they designed themselves into a corner with the healer role. They had two healers at the start and they set up the healing dynamic time be you should bring one of each for maximum synergy. Each healer had a sub role, or style, of either a reactive healer or a preemptive healer.

Rhy they released AST. Instead of creating a new healer style, and balancing the combos of styles to be about even. They doubled down on the safe route. Created a healer that can sub in for either of the current healers.

Now they've created a precedent of there is only 2 healing styles. The next healer they can not use this safe route anymore. So a lot of work will need to be put in to properly Balance healing roles be use they've never done it before. The next time we see a healer, I belive it will have to be a single job release like ninja.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

Just did look into the rankings on fflogs of how many healers are listed in A12S (Kills only).

1. SCH: 1940
2. WHM: 1539
3. AST: 1337

WHM doesn't seem to be so death like everybody is claiming here.

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Obviously this is just the start. People that were WHMs from 3.0-3.4 most likely decided to stick to WHM for progressions sake rather than crash course AST.

In battle AST is undeniably better, and it's only a matter of WHM mains being accepting enough to switch to AST after playing WHM for so long.
Most WHMs I talk to mention that they start to feel like a handicap to their group after a while, and most groups "jokingly" ask their WHMs when they're going AST.

If they add 2 jobs its gonna be 2 dps, if they add 3 jobs then 1 dps, 1 healer and 1 tank

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Originally Posted by Miles_Maelstrom

Each healer had a sub role, or style, of either a reactive healer or a preemptive healer.

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Side note, but I'm going to nitpick here. No healer was or is "reactive.". The difference between SCH and WHM had more to do with general mitigation and single-target burst healing vs. potent AoE burst healing and overall higher HPS.

I agree that 3.x muddied the waters, though, and I'm curious to see what their next step is with the healing meta.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Side note, but I'm going to nitpick here. No healer was or is "reactive.". The difference between SCH and WHM had more to do with general mitigation and single-target burst healing vs. potent AoE burst healing and overall higher HPS.

I agree that 3.x muddied the waters, though, and I'm curious to see what their next step is with the healing meta.

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Maybe I am using the wrong wordin. I meant the whole WHM and diurnal AST have heal over times to assist with healing damage, and SCH and noct AST create shields to prevent damage.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

Just did look into the rankings on fflogs of how many healers are listed in A12S (Kills only).

1. SCH: 1940
2. WHM: 1539
3. AST: 1337

WHM doesn't seem to be so death like everybody is claiming here.

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No one says WHM is dead / useless, just worse. Also where exactly did you get those numbers from?

This is the first savage tier where there is actually parity between all three healers, which is a good thing. WHM/AST is a viable comp as well now so they achieved that goal as well.

Although we can argue D.AST was fine after the Gordias buff, and was pretty good in the MH seat in Midas Savage as well. Just the 3.4 buff meta has made everyone aware that you won't be bringing PLD, MNK, or WHM if you want the fastest kills.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

IME it's usually not any more dangerous to be in melee range on monsters. Heck, on a lot of bosses (namely any that use a conal attack centered on random people...) I find melee range to be the SAFEST place to be.

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This is true, sometimes I do find myself standing with the melee on my SMN lol but if I can stand anywhere I usually stand mid way points. But a lot of times healers do get targeted with things that they have to be away from the PT. So I dunno...would be interesting though.

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Originally Posted by technole

This is the first savage tier where there is actually parity between all three healers, which is a good thing. WHM/AST is a viable comp as well now so they achieved that goal as well.

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Speaking of this, if the 3.4 AST buffs truly are just temporary Band-Aids, what will happen to AST/WHM after they're "fixed"?

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Speaking of this, if the 3.4 AST buffs truly are just temporary Band-Aids, what will happen to AST/WHM after they're "fixed"?

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I wouldn't be surprised if balance gets toned down and they buff other cards. I'm still siding that they won't add another healer because of how difficult it was to get to this point, that way they can continue with the parity we have now.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Most WHMs I talk to mention that they start to feel like a handicap to their group after a while, and most groups "jokingly" ask their WHMs when they're going AST.

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Belongs to the group and what the primary issues during progression are. I'm playing all 3 healers and know thier toolkits and the good and bad aspects of them.

With my current group I'm playing together since Midas. Damage was never an issue. The onliest fight we got killed by the enrage 2 times was A7S, which was caused by issues in mechanic handling.

My point is:

Which healer combination fits best to a group depends on the group and what is the hardest part during the progression.

For groups which have more trouble with damage than mechanics is another combination more good than for groups which have more trouble with mechanics than damage.

For the second type a WHM is not a bad choice.

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Originally Posted by Accelerating

Also where exactly did you get those numbers from?

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I did write it within my first sentence o.O

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

I did write it within my first sentence o.O

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I mean where exactly, can't find them.
Also in what way does a WHM make mechanics easier? AST has almost the same healing, but also brings mitigation and more DPS (which makes a12s for example way easier because you can skip the puddles with good DPS).

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Originally Posted by Accelerating

Also in what way does a WHM make mechanics easier?

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It doesn't make the mechanics easier. But it has a wider toolkit to catchup mechanic issues. For groups like ours this fits very well, as our primary progression is: survive the mechanics and it will be done.

Even our first A8S kill (pre 3.4) was not free of minor and major mistakes. But the first time we survived till the final phase was the pull we finished it.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

Just did look into the rankings on fflogs of how many healers are listed in A12S (Kills only).

1. SCH: 1940
2. WHM: 1539
3. AST: 1337

WHM doesn't seem to be so death like everybody is claiming here.

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Where did you get those numbers? Looking at the statistics tab for just A12S. I have:

Scholar: 1917
Astro: 1608
White Mage: 1083

And the graph goes on to show a consistent decline in White Mages from early October onward.

lol You guys are losing me. I see no option in FFlogs to check how many jobs are participating which seems to be the number you are all suggesting. I can see how many times the class appears in parses, which those numbers are far higher than any being shown in this thread...

Anyway, I do not think WHM is dying or less than AST after looking at 3.4 statistics for healing. Looking at FFlogs healing rankings for 3.4, WHM dominates top 10 for every A12S boss. Based on my healing experience from other games, the reason is easy for me to see: spell bloat. An AST may have a "better" kit than WHM, but the simplicity of WHM allows it to focus more on healing and direct damage only. With simplicity comes higher success rates overall for the class during encounters. AST has an extra card mechanic to pay attention to which not only takes up mental resources for the player, but also consumes GCDs.

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Originally Posted by Bonkleberry

Looking at FFlogs healing rankings for 3.4, WHM dominates top 10 for every A12S boss.

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Healing ranking lul

Well, which ranking do you suggest we look at? DPS? HPS?

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Originally Posted by Bonkleberry

Well, which ranking do you suggest we look at? DPS? HPS?

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Overall DPS the class brings, so look at the compositions of the fastest runs.

Whichever class can clear content while bringing the highest DPS to the entire raid (through personal DPS or support buffs) is the best :P

This is the case for every game.

Sorry, that makes no sense to me. We are talking about healers in this thread and my post was relating to healer ranking for 3.4 A12S on FFlogs. You cannot rank healers on FFlogs based on "Overall group the class brings".

You also can't legitimately rank healers based on HPS since it's a nigh-meaningless metric.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Obviously this is just the start. People that were WHMs from 3.0-3.4 most likely decided to stick to WHM for progressions sake rather than crash course AST.

In battle AST is undeniably better, and it's only a matter of WHM mains being accepting enough to switch to AST after playing WHM for so long.
Most WHMs I talk to mention that they start to feel like a handicap to their group after a while, and most groups "jokingly" ask their WHMs when they're going AST.

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I feel the same, and I also got from my group 'with an AST, we could deal more damage and skip more phases!' in A11S not too long ago. Mind you, I'm dps'ing as much as I can, and usually nobody dies except of stupidity (read: failing mechanics). We cleared the fight, too. But, you know 'with AST, we could be faster'. I was really glad our raid leader intervened. However, that behaviour of people makes me want to play AST less and less... call me childish, but I refuse to be pressured into playing something I don't want to.

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Originally Posted by Rennies

Whichever class can clear content while bringing the highest DPS to the entire raid (through personal DPS or support buffs) is the best :P

This is the case for every game.

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It's only the latter. Selfish high personal DPS from MNK do not add up to the overall raid buff and utility that NIN brings with Trick Attack (Raid DPS) and Shadewalker (Tank DPS).

WHM vs AST is in that same position too, although we depend on RNG but it's an overall buff.

The game doesn't have a proper HoT heal, like the resto druid in WoW.
That's pretty much the only thing the game misses.

White Mage - Generic bazooka heal healer
Scholar - Shield Absorption healer (with a pet on top of that)
Astromancer - Jake-of-all trade buffer
...Dancer? - Heal over time healer?

Unless you have some idea as to how to make a refreshingly unique healer, I don't really see what difference it would make. Though that's could already be said about RDM or SAM.

Personally I'd much rather see the current jobs looked at and refreshed a bit than get a third new job.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

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The last thing I want to see are these niches alone taken as warrant to produce a new healer that will end up mostly functioning in the same way as the next apart from those overlying traits. They may as well be colored differently or just be classified as "ramp/linger +[1/2/3]". By the time you reach a real raid fight, be it in WoW or here in XIV, those niches do directly determine anything relevant—after reaching the minimum eHP to survive particular events, the timings and dynamics and concurrent dps and mana-sustain will be the only thing you really look at.

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Originally Posted by technole

I didn't understand.

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I said that whoever brings the highest DPS to the raid as a whole will be the best job. If a job's personal damage is high enough to outmatch another job's support buffs, the selfish job will be considered better.

Both types can be true.

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Originally Posted by Rennies

Both types can be true.

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It's not though as of 3.4. I'm stating the facts.

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Originally Posted by technole

It's not though as of 3.4. I'm stating the facts.

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There are still equal ilvl and experience raid teams with Monks getting faster clear times than those without in multiple Creator Savage fights, going by FFlogs...
Depends a whole lot on the Monk; those exceptions didn't just phase clean out of existence in 3.4.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

There are still equal ilvl and experience raid teams with Monks getting faster clear times than those without in multiple Creator Savage fights, going by FFlogs...
Depends a whole lot on the Monk; those exceptions didn't just phase clean out of existence in 3.4.

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Oh you can bring MNK for speed savage, but you still have to bring NIN. So that means you are likely swapping out DRG Litany. However you also likely to bring BRD+MCH for the ranged synergy, which is a bit OP this tier. Caster is technically in the same realm as MNK but you usually bring a caster for composition.

Still, the top synergy composition is DRK/WAR/AST/SCH/NIN/DRG/MCH/BRD

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Originally Posted by technole

It's not though as of 3.4. I'm stating the facts.

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And not once did I mention the current situation. I was talking about how it is in general.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

It doesn't make the mechanics easier. But it has a wider toolkit to catchup mechanic issues. For groups like ours this fits very well, as our primary progression is: survive the mechanics and it will be done.

Even our first A8S kill (pre 3.4) was not free of minor and major mistakes. But the first time we survived till the final phase was the pull we finished it.

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It doesn't have a wider or even better toolkit actually.
Divine Seal is about as good as it gets. Presence of Mind is not generally used for healing. They have Benediction which is a wonky mess half the time and on a CD way too long for what it does. As good as "completely restores HP" sounds, most insta cast spells can mimic this with a crit, and doesn't have to wait 5 minutes to do it again. It taking so long to actually hit the target after cast also makes it a terrible emergency heal.

Tetragrammaton is good though, but it's nowhere near good enough to say " I want WHM over AST".

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Originally Posted by Bonkleberry

Sorry, that makes no sense to me. We are talking about healers in this thread and my post was relating to healer ranking for 3.4 A12S on FFlogs. You cannot rank healers on FFlogs based on "Overall group the class brings".

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Well HPS is useless as a metric and the top ranks in the DPS parses are inflated, so the best way to compare is by looking at the overall fastest kills for each floor.

Samurai will be melee healers, with a gap closer with a short cd usable on allies to quickly help heal teammates before going back to attacking the enemy.

Dragoons will be jealous of the fact that SAMs can jump so much more than themselves.

I keep seeing posts that confirm scholar as the off- heal. This seems to be a very fixed mindset and consensus. Even though I would like scholar to be viewed as a main healer because so many people I know love playing scholar as a healer, not a dps. I find it more interesting to play than wmg. I am forced to play wmg if I actually want to heal. This would be fine if SE actually made it into a class that dpsed to heal and made it officially meant to dps class. What I dont enjoy so much is not having one role or the other and changing between 2 roles just for dps worship. Id love to see broil heal as it dpsed. Ofc this would have to be a weaker heal so as not to be op. Either that or make the other two classes dps viable as well so people can actually choose which class they want to play with.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I keep seeing posts that confirm scholar as the off- heal. This seems to be a very fixed mindset and consensus. Even though I would like scholar to be viewed as a main healer because so many people I know love playing scholar as a healer, not a dps. I find it more interesting to play than wmg. I am forced to play wmg if I actually want to heal. This would be fine if SE actually made it into a class that dpsed to heal and made it officially meant to dps class. What I dont enjoy so much is not having one role or the other and changing between 2 roles just for dps worship. Id love to see broil heal as it dpsed. Ofc this would have to be a weaker heal so as not to be op. Either that or make the other two classes dps viable as well so people can actually choose which class they want to play with.

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You have to understand that even the mainhealer is doing as much damage as possible. There's no such thing as only healing if you wanna play effeciently.

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Originally Posted by Accelerating

Well HPS is useless as a metric and the top ranks in the DPS parses are inflated, so the best way to compare is by looking at the overall fastest kills for each floor.

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Yeah, HPS is useless. Even execution ranking is a better metric in that regard which includes deaths and damage taken. Like HPS is going to be naturally higher when the raid takes more damage than other groups. But it is likely due to overall gear, mistakes, phases/mechanics not skipped, etc. Having to heal less which drops HPS because of such factors is a good thing.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I keep seeing posts that confirm scholar as the off- heal. This seems to be a very fixed mindset and consensus. Even though I would like scholar to be viewed as a main healer because so many people I know love playing scholar as a healer, not a dps.

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Broil is the weakest healer nuke of the three.

But there isn't really a main or off-healer. It's such a bad term. There are two healers, and the best groups take advantage of healer cool downs and strengths which allow both to DPS as appropriate. It's inefficient to have one healer that is focused on almost all healing because they can't put up their DoTs too, so with the right efficiencies both can cleric safely, which results in better combined healer dps.

Shielding healer should put up barriers as necessary to lessen damage from mechanics so the other healer doesn't have to heal "as much", that includes tank busters. More importantly for SCH things like using Indom/Emergency Tactics as-necessary to prevent the AST/WHM from having to use extra GCDs to top-off the raid for mechanics. Think of mechanics like A11-S photon. Selfish SCHs are just sitting there in cleric stance, when it's just as easy to swap out to toss these skills up.