Limitations

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

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I think you misunderstand me. I don't generally care which platforms this game runs on. However I do think that it's silly that the dev's make the game playable on PC and PS, and then blame the PS for not implementing certain things we want.

If you're gonna make a game for multiple platforms, they will need to think of something to implement these things without it causing a problem on either platform, so the game won't be held back. Which is why I said if SE keeps blaming the playstation for not implementing certain things, don't make the game playable on said PS in the first place. Because they could've known this was coming. A Playstation does not get hardware upgrades, where a PC does. Of course you'll run into a point where the console won't be able to handle it anymore. So just seems silly for them to keep using that as an excuse. If anything they probably should've dropped PS3 support the first time they ran into these "limitation issues".

I'm sorry if my posts were offensive to anyone cus that's not how I meant it to be. I suck at explaining myself though :P

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Originally Posted by xLucia

I think you misunderstand me. I don't generally care which platforms this game runs on. However I do think that it's silly that the dev's make the game playable on PC and PS, and then blame the PS for not implementing certain things we want.

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That's the thing, though: The devs DON'T blame these things on PS3. The PLAYERS do.

I challenge you to find a dev announcement that we won't be getting such-and-such feature because of PS3 limitations. Oh, you MIGHT find one or two (such as the promised "add on" capability - but PS4 is limiting us just as much on that count) - but not the torrent of features that players assume (such as the ones in the first post).

Players have been jumping to conclusions about PS3 limitations for a long, long time - and, in almost every case, these assumptions are wrong, and PS3 limitations were NOT what was holding us back from getting them. Instead, it's things like server latency, player demand vs cost to implement, so on and so forth.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

That's the thing, though: The devs DON'T blame these things on PS3. The PLAYERS do.

I challenge you to find a dev announcement that we won't be getting such-and-such feature because of PS3 limitations. Oh, you MIGHT find one or two - but not the torrent of features that players assume (such as the ones in the first post).

Players have been jumping to conclusions about PS3 limitations for a long, long time - and, in almost every case, these assumptions are wrong, and PS3 limitations were NOT what was holding us back from getting them. Instead, it's things like server latency, player demand vs cost to implement, so on and so forth.

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If it wasn't the devs that mentioned PS3 limitations as a reason not to implement certain things, then why do people keep saying that? I don't know any better than SE having said this themselves, since that's what I've been told. If this not the case, I take back all the things I said about it.

It's very easy to do open world content...all yoshida has to do is turn away from his WoW monitor and look at XI...talk to XI's devs if he's unsure how to proceed... believe me...after 14yrs I know they have a clue.

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Originally Posted by Vaer

The new PS3 limitations is now "We need PS5."

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Let's do basic math. You have I believe 104 dyes in the game at this point in time. That means you have 104 variables when dyeing a piece of armor, now the question asked which brought about needing a PS5 was the ability to dye using two different colors, so rather than changing one color you change two pieces of your armor to two unique colors. This means you have 104 times 103 which would be 10,712 different variations for your armor. It's just a lot of data to keep in mind and that's just for one piece of armor. Think about just 50 piece of armor in the game that you can dye, that is currently a total of 5200 variables however now you have two options for dyeing and that jumps up to 535,600 variables. It just becomes more and more exponential because while you might think "oh it's simple to just add a secondary color into an MMO." the truth is it isn't.

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Originally Posted by Zafrei

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Should've noted, I don't use a PS3 anymore, thought it was clear when I said 2 years and a half when the games been out for i believe about 4 or 3 years....I think. But yeah I have a PS4. Moving over only thing that changed was graphics, definition of shadows, textures, load times (like bam, but not too impressive) and more player's visual on the screen without fps drops (most of the time). Saying what is or whats not actually decent content is debatable as I should also of pointed out, because I do believe that there is content that is complete and utter S#%@ and definately was a factor in my theory that whoever came up with some of these ideas doesn't know what they're doing, limits (in specifics. ex: memory), or flat out tossed concepts for simplicity.

I'm not using Diadem as an example because I'm just tired of mentioning it at this point, so lets talk newer content. Squadrons. They're crap. Frontlines Slaughter, wasn't a good idea back then, Isn't one now. They had concept art showing more things would be going on, cannons, destructible terrain, but nope. That could've been just concept art being changed or a change of heart for the mode that it was too engaging. I dunno. Secure is still alot of people's favorite, but they removed special nodes that made the mode more than it was, but I guess that was bad, or limitations. Shatter is Sieze with crystals you destroy instead of standing in one spot to take them. Yay?

Anyways PvP talk isn't fair, because not everyone likes PvP, so lets talk PvE. If I told you dungeons are engaging I'd be lying to myself. They feel like glorified Rollercoasters with pit stops that shoot enemies at you. On occasion they'd give you something to go "oooh" and "aaah" with boss fights that are so easy I can manage with my 20sec lag spikes because Comcast is a piece o-- oops, got sidetracked. Anyways running them more than once doesn't help, also doesn't help that there is no replay value, other than tomes in which case make it more of a chore than actual "high quality" content. Not to sound like a raging customer but I refuse to lie about what I think of most of these design decisions, but to say they release High Quality content consistently sounds like fan/girl talk (no offense). I mean its cool you like it but..ugh, housing is terribad! XD Dungeons are hallways, the English dub in 2.x sounded so bad because most of what everyone said sounded like a tribute to shakespear if he was a pompous a@%hole (though near the end of 2.x they started using more modern terms, cool beans), Hunting Grounds is barren because we all know why, Airships through everyone for a loop, don't tell me anyone suspected that we'd send mammets to drive our ship that we built, colored, named, and most likely planned adventures with our FCs with. Geez, I rant alot. Srry, and thnx for reading.

Short version:
This game definitely (to me) does not have consistent quality content. ex: housing and diadem (yeah yeah I know)

On the memory thing. I'm pretty sure your talking server memory, which goes to my other statement from a while back. PS3 handles memory and its graphical limitations as follows:

Lowered Frame Rate

Lowered Textures

Decreased Shadow Quality

Removed Specific Physics (boobs, clothes, etc)

Lowered Viewing Distance (PS3 players see less far away objects and beings than PS4)

Lowered Resolution

Less player clutter in populated areas (reducing memory usage and prioritizing things like monsters and bosses)

These are the systems limitations that make the game playable on that system. By cutting that support I still won't see how it was that much of a hindrance. If the server memory space clears up a bit (which I'm guessing your saying) by removing it, then how exactly does it do that? Its not as if the PS3's run on seperate servers. Not to mention the PC has the options to play in the same way with low textures and such so I still don't see it.

Short version:
FFXIV Content - PS3 support = ? (how)

Terribly srry for the long response X(

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I challenge you to find a dev announcement that we won't be getting such-and-such feature because of PS3 limitations. Oh, you MIGHT find one or two (such as the promised "add on" capability - but PS4 is limiting us just as much on that count) - but not the torrent of features that players assume (such as the ones in the first post).

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dev decision limitation. That have to do with the parser debatte.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

That's the thing, though: The devs DON'T blame these things on PS3. The PLAYERS do.

I challenge you to find a dev announcement that we won't be getting such-and-such feature because of PS3 limitations. Oh, you MIGHT find one or two (such as the promised "add on" capability - but PS4 is limiting us just as much on that count) - but not the torrent of features that players assume (such as the ones in the first post).

Players have been jumping to conclusions about PS3 limitations for a long, long time - and, in almost every case, these assumptions are wrong, and PS3 limitations were NOT what was holding us back from getting them. Instead, it's things like server latency, player demand vs cost to implement, so on and so forth.

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The PS4 isn't limiting the availability of an official parser, the community is. I still don't see why people are against it in extreme party finder content, as a flag the leader can set.

Yoshi-P did mention that they wanted to implement large scale FATEs where you'd fly onto the back of a beast and fight it with a huge amount of players but couldn't do so due to the PS3, very different from a parser as a large scale FATE like that would create new and exciting gameplay that's limited by the PS3. There's also armour textures, does anyone believe those are restricted by the PS4 when it can run the Witcher 3 and FFXV? Anyone remember the scene with Estinien and they zoomed into his shoulder only to reveal the PS2 era texture work on the "attachment" (trying not to spoil anything)? They could make separate texture packs for all armour sets depending on your platform, but that's a lot of work to consider especially with for a onetime close in scene. I do recall the PS3 limiting a glamour log as Yoshi-P stated that the PS3 couldn't load so much items in a listing, but that was most likely an excuse as is the multi-dye system being restricted by the PS4.

There's the cities being split in two zones, loading screens in some raids and dungeons, the lack of a number on the TP bar, lack of small detail in the over world (crates, grass, little objects, etc.) because those can't be disabled on a per system basis without a lot of work. A great example of the difference between platforms would be the difference between Dark Souls 2 and 3, Dark Souls 2 is quite bare on all platforms while 3 is filled to the brim with an immense amount of detail. All the flooring is visibly modeled and not a flat texture or an illusion with parallax occlusion mapping, there's breakable objects everywhere, highly detailed cloth physics and blood splatter and so on. You're definitely right about those small things being restricted by cost of implementation, but PS3 limitations and costs aren't exclusive.

Will it turn FFXIV into FFXV? No, but small changes would be appreciated. While I didn't play FFXI, I'd rather FFXIV not fall into the same trap and end up stagnating while slowly bleeding subscribers. WoW wouldn't be where it is today without constant updating of mechanics and visual fidelity and hopefully with the PS3 support being dropped we can get those eventual improvements.

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Originally Posted by Allistar

It's very easy to do open world content...all yoshida has to do is turn away from his WoW monitor and look at XI...talk to XI's devs if he's unsure how to proceed... believe me...after 14yrs I know they have a clue.

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Funnily enough, WoW: Legion has great open world content that's similar to FATEs but fun and interesting. I see people in the open world constantly and you can do the "FATEs" together without grouping up even. Unfortunately, Yoshi-P seems to take WoW's terrible and cheap ideas (time filler content such as garrisons) and ignore the good ones as they're too costly to implement. As for the FFXI team, I believe a lot of them do work for Yoshi-P now.

They couldn't drop ps3 earlier because ps3 still was 20%+ of the paying population.

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

Open-World Dungeons - Limitations

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im more for seamless open world (no loading screens) than open world dungeons. but then again it's not likely since they'll have to rework all the 2.xx areas to allow flying (and swimming if they add swimming in 4.0)

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Originally Posted by Vaer

The new PS3 limitations is now "We need PS5."

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This.
Hearing the answers to the Fanfest Q&A, everytime someone asked about the things that were formerly pushed aside with "PS3 limitations" got answered with "we need the PS5 for that" now.
And I can guarantee, once PS5 gets released (or whatever Sony throws onto the market next), we'll hear "PS4 limitations" and once PS4 support gets dropped, they'll find another excuse..

From what I gathered here. SE does thing differently compared to other games. Dying for example involves a texture file for every single color to map onto a grayscale model.

Some cases are deliberate choices (see Primals) others are just inefficient systems (see, 1.0's potted plants)

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Originally Posted by Colorful

The PS4 isn't limiting the availability of an official parser, the community is. I still don't see why people are against it in extreme party finder content, as a flag the leader can set.

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I wasn't speaking of parsers, but of add-ons in general, of which parsers are just one example. And it was my understanding that SE won't implement this because there is no support for it on Playstation Network, which would be required to ensure that add-on capability were equal between the PC and Console versions. This is why I listed it as an example of "console limitations"

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Yoshi-P did mention that they wanted to implement large scale FATEs where you'd fly onto the back of a beast and fight it with a huge amount of players but couldn't do so due to the PS3, very different from a parser as a large scale FATE like that would create new and exciting gameplay that's limited by the PS3. There's also armour textures, does anyone believe those are restricted by the PS4 when it can run the Witcher 3 and FFXV? Anyone remember the scene with Estinien and they zoomed into his shoulder only to reveal the PS2 era texture work on the "attachment" (trying not to spoil anything)? They could make separate texture packs for all armour sets depending on your platform, but that's a lot of work to consider especially with for a onetime close in scene. I do recall the PS3 limiting a glamour log as Yoshi-P stated that the PS3 couldn't load so much items in a listing, but that was most likely an excuse as is the multi-dye system being restricted by the PS4.

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The FATE thing, I haven't heard - that could be an example of the "one or two" exceptions I mentioned (and which the community latched onto as an excuse to blame EVERYTHING on PS3). Bear in mind, though, that Yoshi-P has promised a lot of things that he was not able to follow through on, not because of console limitations, but development limitations. Housing being the most infamous example. He's not always the best at keeping what he'd LIKE to see happen within the limitations of what's actually feasible to develop.

The textures thing, I don't buy one bit. DOWNgrading a texture is beyond easy; if SE wanted HQ textures for PS4 and PC, we'd have them, and PS3 would have a lesser version. And, in this case, this is purely player speculation (you being the player speculating, in this case). No dev or Yoshi-P has stepped forward claiming PS3 limitations for this. The same goes for all of the other examples you listed - none of them are more than player speculation as to why we don't have these things, and for many, it is natural to blame PS3, when it is not actually responsible in the least.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I wasn't speaking of parsers, but of add-ons in general, of which parsers are just one example.

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As far as I know addons are still in the works, but planned to only be used for extensive UI customisation rather than addons you'd find in WoW such as DBM or Recount. There's no advantages on PC players so console limitations haven't been used as an excuse, not yet anyway.

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The FATE thing, I haven't heard - that could be an example of the "one or two" exceptions I mentioned (and which the community latched onto as an excuse to blame EVERYTHING on PS3). Bear in mind, though, that Yoshi-P has promised a lot of things that he was not able to follow through on, not because of console limitations, but development limitations. Housing being the most infamous example. He's not always the best at keeping what he'd LIKE to see happen within the limitations of what's actually feasible to develop.

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Yoshida does tend to promise a lot and not follow through with some things, but I don't think a large scale FATE would be as difficult to implement as a glamour log, addon API, hair physics or multiple dyes on the same piece of gear. Seems more likely that it's limited by the PS3's lack of RAM or CPU limitations in handling a large amount of players in one zone along with massive creature.

I think people need to remember how dated the PS3 is, all the limitations I threw out there are speculation yes, but they're not baseless speculation. Saying it's speculation doesn't mean it doesn't hold some merit. The PS3 has 256MB of RAM and then another 256MB of VRAM, it's a miracle that they managed to get FFXIV running on it to begin with, and it's clear that they've utilised 100% of its resources. It runs at sub 30 FPS in towns, while some would argue that splitting the cities in two sections is design choice its clear that's not the case. Running a major city with many people running around on its CPU and limited RAM would be like attempting to run Star Citizen PU Alpha on a system with less than 4GB of VRAM. It's not a design choice that they scrapped FFXV on the PS3 and moved onto the PS4, nor is it a cost cutting measure. it's because the console is dated and would limit the game severely and that's not speculation.

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The textures thing, I don't buy one bit. DOWNgrading a texture is beyond easy; if SE wanted HQ textures for PS4 and PC, we'd have them, and PS3 would have a lesser version.

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Downgrading a texture is easy, but we have no idea how easy managing 2-3 versions is and from what SE has said the engine they're using is especially difficult to work with (which is why KH3 and FFVII HD aren't going to be using it). Whether that applies to the cut down engine FFXIV is using, well it's as you said, speculation. Now that the PS3 has been dropped, they no longer need to cater to the lowest tier of system. If they do implement poor quality textures we'll know something is up, but really there's no excuse for it anymore.

Yoshi-P could do absolutely nothing and let the game rot like they did with FFXI, or they could continually improve it by upgrading the requirements every expansion pack, including new modern features to compete with up and coming MMORPGs and do the occasional overhaul where needed as WoW does. All that matters is that wouldn't of been possible with the PS3 attached, just as current raids in WoW or areas like Suramar wouldn't run low end systems that could run Vanilla WoW.