I think he means mankind in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by myahele
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10-06-2016, 10:34 AMAmetrine
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10-06-2016, 12:00 PMZorzi
I have a couple of questions - have any Ascians aside from Elidibus talked about balance? And what do WoL on the shards fight against? I've seen a few posts that seem to say calamities only happen on the source, so what are the WoL and Ascians fighting about on the shards?
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10-06-2016, 12:08 PMAnonymooseNot really. Lahabrea tried for a few minutes in the Praetorium but he went back to "Darkness shall consume everything! Muahahah! Time compressioooon!" pretty fast. As of the fight in the Aetherochemical Research Facility, that's still his company line. They agree that the Rejoining shall make the world whole and the Lord Zodiark shall be reborn, but while Elidibus talks of balance (at least in terms of the Reflections), even Lahabrea shouts things like "Chaos shall reign forevermore!", more in line with Nabriales and his "Insatiable hunger of the void! Devour all light and return this world to perfect darkness!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorzi
This is a big question for me right now. We saw the Warrior of Darkness in an Echo (still on Hydaelyn's payroll) playing out our scene with Lahabrea against another overlord. It can be assumed that he was breaking a Dark Crystal and casting the Ascian from their realm. We've never heard of any other Ascians being annihilated like we've done with Nabriales and Igeyorhm; likewise no overlords are missing (and they've said that, aside from Lahabrea, they are the ones from other worlds). I assume that the Warriors of the First cast them out of who they were possessing and thwarted their plans and influence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorzi
This is why I'm really miffed that we've (seemingly) concluded the Warriors of Darkness arc without ever confirming who that overlord was. Emmerololth? Pashtarot? If it's one of these names, we know he's of the Council of Fourteen - Lahabrea's equivalent on the First, possessing someone and raising minions and stirring up trouble. If not... -
10-06-2016, 12:12 PMmyaheleLahabrea mentions it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorzi
http://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acci...6efc220bdd.jpg
Though his idea of balance might be different from Elidibus -
10-06-2016, 12:45 PMCilia
From the one line we get regarding the Warriors of Darkness' reason for formerly opposing the Ascians, it sounds like they just puppeteer history on the Reflections.
They would likely do this to maintain relative balance, lest a Reflection become drowned by Light or Dark and become a Void. We know so little about the Reflections that there isn't much to do but guess at this one, lol. Maybe they trigger Calamities on the Reflections... but I can't fathom why they'd do so, given the Reflection needs to survive to have its Shard Rejoined. (Again tying into why they don't want Voids of either flavor.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbert
Lahabrea mentions the aetheric imbalance, though what exactly he means remains unknown. He makes it sound like a natural disaster will occur if the aetheric imbalance is not mended by complete Rejoining, and may be correct; the Light seems weak on the Source, but we never do anything but banish the Dark. Elidibus also mentions the balance is tipping toward Light in the ending of Heavensward, so they may be right... though what exactly that means is the question. (I have no answers because there's still no evidence to draw a conclusion from; we now have most of the "how" behind the Ascians' actions, but the ultimate "why balance the Source?" remains.) -
10-06-2016, 01:01 PMAnonymooseI struggle with Lahabrea's seeming inconsistency pretty regularly. It's such an important scene that I doubt they'd let it slide if it was less-than-accurate, which leaves only the possibility that it's less-than-clear, or that Lahabrea is less-than-thorough. The best guess I have (today) is that half of his speech is focused on the Praetorium-Present (we've been spreading Light and preventing a Rejoining) and the other half is focused more on the long-term goal (the Rejoinings must take place in order for Zodiark to be reborn). In the meantime, stopping the Rejoinings is, to the Ascians, the preservation of an aberration - and Hyadelyn's support of it a cancer on the fabric of the universe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
He seems pretty adamant that once Zodiark is reborn, however, Hydaelyn is going down - complete excision. Elidibus doesn't necessarily deny this, but he frames it prettier - lacking in Lahabrea's "Chaos shall reign forevermore!" and focusing on "Hydaelyn will regain Her original form." Unless Zodiark originally did have a dominant say in things...? We haven't really any hints that he used the power he took, though, or that he had it for very long. It might be too soon to be waving that flag around, lol. -
10-06-2016, 01:39 PMZorziI wonder. He says that the way to fix the imbalance is remove Hydaelyn entirely (although, if Hydaelyn is the 'planet' in the same way Zodiark is the 'moon', how do you burn Hydaelyn out of Hydaelyn? He specifically says "planet"...) Either way, that doesn't sound too balanced to me. This does bring up why I asked though - all the Ascians seem to work together to bring Zodiark back, but it seems like the Ascians, excluding Elidibus, are doing it for Zodiark's domination. Is Elidibus the only one who wants them to be rejoined equally, into whatever existed before the split?Quote:
Originally Posted by myahele
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10-06-2016, 03:25 PMCilia
The problem with Lahabrea's mention of imbalance is that it is incredibly vague; it's up there in the picture with him before the fight in the Praetorium. All he really says is that there's an imbalance that will warp the physical and aetheric laws of the world, and that resolving it means resurrecting Zodiark because only He has the power to banish Hydaelyn, who is the cause of it all - thus the Calamities, necessary to break down the dimensional barriers and Rejoin a Shard with the Source.
The problem with that is, we haven't seen any evidence he's telling the truth. Aside from that mention of an aether reading being weird before we found Wilred's body (a dangling plot thread that's yet to be resolved), nothing we've seen suggests anything of the sort. It'll get worse and start messing with reality, Lahabrea says, but here we are X months later and still nothing. Then again, being immortal, the Ascians likely see the long game much clearer than we do.
If I had to guess I'd say Zodiark was always weaker than Hydaelyn; they always coexisted in a balance, but who says the balance wasn't tipped in Her favor? She'd have to be more powerful to banish Him before He started doing stuff with His new power, and if Zodiark's desiccated corpse really is the moon, which is much smaller than the planet, it would suggest Zodiark always had the short end of the stick until He struck out to even (not balance) the scales. Since Darkness is part of everything... banishing Zodiark would naturally create a distorted world, and thus the divergent Reflections / Shards created as a consequence.
... ehh, whatever! The only new information we really got was that it is totally possible to make a Flood and Void of Light, and that a Void of either polarity is not something Elidibus or Zodiark can take advantage of. Everything else is still the same. (And the moon is totally Zodiark's desiccated corpse! It's not Menphina!)
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And that the Thirteenth Reflection became what we know as the Void because of a Flood of Darkness. That's all we really learned. In 3.4. -
10-07-2016, 12:26 AMBelhi
This is very off topic but a comment by a fc member got me thinking. Since the Void actually is a reflection and clearly there is some way to travel between the two, I started wondering if maybe the origins of the Au Ra are literally voidsent who settled in Hydaelyn, ala. Ultros, or perhaps even refugees from a world collapsing into void.
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10-07-2016, 12:37 AMsaberchic
I am also confused about the Warriors of Darkness. We've seen them in trailers fighting here, on our world. https://youtu.be/h542YbZuwkQ
So did they come over before our Calamity? And if they wanted the darkness to win, why are they fighting on our side? -
10-07-2016, 01:33 AMTinyRedLeafWell, in another thread, I half-jokingly asked whether what we saw in those trailers was actually happening in the Source. For all we know, those could have been events in one of the Reflections. When asked by fans, the dev team has stated before that Derplander & Co are actual people (as well as placeholders for us, the player-characters). As for why we haven't met them in our adventurers until now... well, go figure. Perhaps they were in a different world altogether at the time? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by saberchic
As for why they apparently "wanted" darkness to win, I'd suggest reading this thread again from the beginning. The second post itself should clear up most of your confusion.
In short, the WoDs were originally the heroes of their own world, the First. So, it's not surprising that they'd be fighting "on our side". As for why they appeared to be the antagonists throughout 3.x, well, they had been misled by Elidibus and were, in effect, blackmailed into attacking the WoL to save the First. They didn't really want darkness to win, but believed, against their better judgment, that it was the only way to prevent the First from being flooded with Light. That would be a calamity, too, as it would erase all life from the First. -
10-07-2016, 05:20 AMAnonymooseNot to dismiss the currently-darksteelfoil-hat theory that Version 1.0 took place on the First (or that the First is an exact replica of that timeline up until it diverged recently), and not to dismiss the possibility that they've been here longer than we expected, but:Quote:
Originally Posted by saberchic
I'm leaving my mind open to the possibility that the [Warriors of Darkness] look just like the [CG Party] (seen in the trailers) simply because someone thought it would be cool and no one thought people would think too hard about it. (Like Turn 9.) After all, the [CG Party] is still used in the trailers to this day. Imho, it's safer to assume that the the Midlander Hyur seen in that trailer is the Midlander Hyur that became a dragoon and gets chained by the Warriors of Darkness in the Soul Surrender previews (until we get better hints otherwise).
If that's the case, the [CG Party] is and was always on the Source, and they are generic adventurers that might exist on their own somewhere but mostly just represent your character. And then the [Warriors of Darkness] were and were always on the First, but just happen to look like the [CG Party] because they are the exact equivalent of generic adventurers chosen by Hydaelyn, but from a different world.
It's a "safe" assumption until someone on the fringe get more support, but it cannot answer for why - in an Echo - the Warriors of Darkness are clearly wearing Eorzean artifact armor. Is it "because timelines"? Did the Echo helpfully superimpose the image of the people we were seeing on over who they used to be? Should we "not think too hard about it"? -
10-09-2016, 11:32 AMRamessesThanks again for this Moose... excellent and yes this thoroughly explains a lot more about the void stuff I was trying to ask you last time we talked. I agree that there is a lot of room for gray and here's another possible response to your question: What does this all mean? One notion that must also be observed is whether this whole dance between Hydaelyn and Zodiark is actually (at its simplest level) a way for them both to evolve? I vaguely seem to have seen these same stages of phrases in many sophisticated tales of evolution. They usually go like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
Separation, fragmentation, conflict, resolution, then reestablish back together as an evolved whole... sound familiar?
Secondly... and this is a lingering thought that has been nagging at me since 2.0 launched: As a future main plot twist to a major part of the Eorzean lore, what if our Derplander is Gaius?
Sounds absurd, I know... and its even more absurd than the other discussion I've heard regarding Unukalhai being his son... (that's a whole other debate so Im not going there). Nonetheless, why do I think Derpy could be Gaius? Sure, he's apparently supposed to be full blooded Garlean Hume (with the third eye) and not even a Eorzean Hume. Naturally, in the few times I had casually mentioned this suggestion on my blog and online, it has been graciously dismissed. It's not just the coincidental fact in the original 1.0 trailers, the echo purposely transports Derpy to the great battle between Middy and the Garlean's flagship Agrius. Or that they are both Hume. Or that since 2.0 Gaius was obsessed with conquering Eorzea (even though it can be correctly debated that he was using the period of internal strife for the Garlean throne as a precursor to do his own thing and further his own agenda with his XIVth legion).
Nor is it Gaius' constant trademark statement of never believing in false gods... but its the fact that we, the Warriors of Light, started our own adventurers by simply appearing on Eorzea with Hydaelyn's voice in our heads: "Hear, Think, Feel". Could not the same be said for Derplander? And if you ask Why, I shall counter with the question "Why Not"?
With our Warriors of Darkness having now returned to the Aether stream, could the possibility not be argued that Derplander found his way back to our plane (this same 13th plane--- albeit in a different timeline), found himself in the Garlean region within an empire that had just began to take shape... and swiftly progressed through the ranks to become a Legatus, our illustrious Black Wolf?
Plus, he never did take off that mask of a helm... -
10-09-2016, 12:44 PMCilia
What is this "Hume" of which you speak?
Also, what.
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Contradictions / holes:
Ascian-style planeswalking (to borrow a term from M:tG) requires one to possess a Crystal of Light / Darkness and give up mortal existence. As far as we know, neither apply to Gaius.
Our "plane" is the Source, or the Zeroth Reflection. The Thirteenth became the void after being drowned in a Flood of Darkness and has been in that state since before the Allagan Empire.
What time manipulation is currently available cannot be used to alter the past. Alexander could do naught but create causal loops (doing much outside of his causal loops would create a temporal paradox), and even the most the Ascians can do is speed up their own internal time (Nabriales' Double and Triple). Louisoix was only able to project the Warriors of Light into the future, functionally speaking. It would require the likes of Alexander to send Derplander back in time to become Gaius, and as far as we know neither he nor a similar primal was summoned around that time frame. (Also, given his relative benevolence, I don't think Alexander would do that unless Gaius were part of the causal loop he has to perpetuate... which he isn't.) We can move through time, but time itself is immovable - as far as we know.
The Echo is not literal time travel; it's more like overcoming the barriers of another's soul to view their memories. Or at least that's our main application of it.
According to recent commentary, Regula van Hydrus was the only imperial legatus who earned his station through merit rather than political maneuvering and/or high birth. Presumably this includes Gaius. -
10-09-2016, 09:22 PMAlleo
Wow the theories are getting even more crazy. First I thought why should we, who derplander represents, be Gaius? Then I noticed that you probably mean the WoD or Darklander. So you mean that after what happened in 3.4 the WoD landed in our past and somehow ended as part of the Galearn empire? Shouldn't he have recognized us in our first meeting as Gaius if this was the case? Shouldn't they have the same voice? I do like some good discussion but really nothing makes much sense in this theory ^^;.
The echo scene that derplander saw was probably only there to show us players what happened in the battle by the lake and how Middy dies and the primals got free. And lets not forget that derplander in this scene was us. He is our representation and for your theory to come true, the other one needs to be true too..I mean the one about how the WoD were original from the source and got transported into the other world by the time spell.