Do jobs FEEL right to you? theme vs playstyle

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Originally Posted by ThirdKeyOfSun

I am bad at quoting so I will just retype in its entirety what I posted in the DPS forum but for summoner:

I know it doesn't solve anything really, but what about aesthetics? What if our normal spells were replaced with "lesser summon" equivalents that do the exact same potency/damage/debuffs?

Say you cast Ruinous Omen(shadowflare) but when the cast is done a Diabolos (no larger than a male roe) would come out and throw down a Ruinous Omen dome. That would be our new shadowflare. Cast Final Requiem(bio2) and Siren comes out and drops Requiem on the enemy and vanishes. Fenrir for Lunatic Cry (miasma) etc. Make all of our base spells these "mini" summons and then we can do something interesting with our actual Egi after maybe D: This way we would be summoning all the time and they would be classic type summon (one cast one effect) and we keep Egi.

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Two words: PS3 Limitations.

Ninjas kick more than Monks do.

That's my biggest gripe.

Black mage, my only problem is that I don't think they get enough dark magic.

The only job which really honors its name is MNK. Sure it has questionable abilities, but overall it feels polished both aesthetically and gameplay wise. The only other job which feels really nice to play is WAR, but most abilities look meh (what's the deal on fell cleave?).

I think it's a result of the game's revival. There wasn't much time so they did what they could. Those who also play(ed) WoW know how many similarities jobs have with classes in WoW. It causes a rather intense surprise.

It would be great if they remove all base classes come 4.0 (1.0 remnant) so they can really focus on making a job more unique.

As I think more on this...

It still really bothers me that NIN and ROG are shackled together in terms of thematic elements. While there's some general overlap since both are stealthy and use small bladed weapons, gear is often designed for more "generic" rogues rather than mystical ninjas, and even most weaponskills, since the animations in general need to work more for daggers than ninja-to/kunai. I want more NIN-styled attacks, with more emphasis on elemental stuff, as was the case in FFXI, to really drive home the more supernatural elements.

Of course, that's problematic because some folks who play NIN don't want *that* flavor—they want the ROG elements instead.

I wish they hadn't put them together, really, and let ROG go into THF instead, with NIN being a branch off job or just an Extra Job or something.

My three problem classes are bard, blackmage, and summoner.

Bards casting archery was just a dumb idea. I'm not sure what they were thinking with this one but I've been putting up with it. I'm not sure how they could change it in a way that would make WM increase damage with a different kind of drawback, maybe reduced skillspeed or something. The whole idea of archer or at least I thought, was mobility dps at a cost of reduced dps. The trade off to that was a neat toolkit of support skills that increase overall party potential/survival.

Blackmage started out great and was pretty fun but some phases like thordan EX meteors and random other tight spots make it very rough on them. Most cases you have to choose to either get that spell off and receive a near death or deathblow, or make a run for it. Teleportation skill is neat but targeting can be hard unless you have a few set macros for it to use on example <p3> or <p6> etc... in an emergency you may not even press it in time. Honestly I think manawall should be alot stronger and protect against magic as well for a situation like these, it used to block one or two hits completely in the past? I don't remember exactly but that would be alot more useful. Maybe an ability enhancement next expansion? Bottom line is some fights have alot of motion and that can make dps hard, it either feels like its getting worse with new bosses or its just me I guess.

Summoner... I just dont like the way this class plays at all, my opinion I guess. I haven't played it on ffxiv but I played ffxi summoner as a main so there's no chance I would enjoy it the way it plays on this one.

Only answering this for the classes I regulary play, because for the others I either just skimmed through the lore or have no idea how to actually play the class..x)


BLM - feels nearly perfect. The spells you use fit with the lore, lots of giant explosions, high concentration for high power output (looking at you, enochian) but very fragile in general.
If anything, I think the "void" part is a bit missing. Lots of the earlier jobquests deal with the BLMs connection to the Void, but the only thing we ever do with it gameplay-wise is summon a meteor from it for our LB..that feels slightly lacking.

AST - right on spot. Bringing luck and strength to my fellow party members by reading their fortunes ahead of time based on the movement of the stars (card buffs), gravity and time related spells, etc..lore and gameplay fit perfectly.

NIN - if we actually got the invisibility visual effect after using Suiton (the one where you become somewhat transparent), I'd be perfectly fine with it. Main DMG combo is stabbing the opponent in the back, classic elemental ninja attacks are a thing, skill animations are all about spinning, slashing, dancing with your blade with deadly precision, wearing the opponent down (instead of, say, a OHKO with a massive axe or something). Higher movement speed, different jump animation and reduced fall DMG make this all even more fitting.

BRD - The gear is really the only thing that screams BRD! to me, tbh x.x Gameplay-wise, barely any of your skills are song-related at all. Most players even get by without ever singing songs at all. Lorewise it's a proper supporter that can also fight, gameplay is a weaker DPS that might..maybe...a little bit, sometimes..supportive? And then you have stuff like how singing songs lowers the DPS (makes sense, singing takes power and concentration) but constantly singing WM raises it somehow? WM should be a "stands still and has a cast time to aim", but it's wrapped in a song which makes no sense and..urgh. And don't get me started on weapon design!

WHM - not much to say here. Elements fit perfectly (earth, water, wind), lore and all the holy healing magic go perfectly hand in hand with each other as well.

SCH - I just find it ironic that the entire jobquest for this class is about helping/healing the Tonberrys, and yet SCH is the healer that gets it's despell the last, waaaay later than any other class, when it's all about cleaning that "sick" status :p

DRK - torn between fitting and "too generic". On one hand, the whole sacrifical part is nicely there with all the skills and self-buffs that consume MP, and the whole deeprooted anger and hate for those who evade justice is found in attack effects and names.
But..playing it kinda just feels...generic in a way? Like a PLD with darker weaponskill effects slapped on...idk.

They need to do something with Summoner. I suggest a mini LB-like bar that fills with DoT crits and allows the summoning of a primal for one big attack upon use. Maybe place the summon attacks in the pet hotbar to not muddle up your current bars. They could simply set the summon moves to be the Primal's big move as always (ex: Diamon Dust Storm for Shiva)

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Originally Posted by Atoli

Only answering this for the classes I regulary play, because for the others I either just skimmed through the lore or have no idea how to actually play the class..x)


BLM - feels nearly perfect. The spells you use fit with the lore, lots of giant explosions, high concentration for high power output (looking at you, enochian) but very fragile in general.
If anything, I think the "void" part is a bit missing. Lots of the earlier jobquests deal with the BLMs connection to the Void, but the only thing we ever do with it gameplay-wise is summon a meteor from it for our LB..that feels slightly lacking.

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I would love for a black void spell that pulls enemies nearby together and stuns them. Would be a nice survival spell for soloing as well as a good positioning move before a flare.

Short answer, no.

Long answer:

Warrior: I love to play WAR and I main it along with my heals, but I feel like it should be more impactful with the skills. More bloodthirsty and gruff as a whole. The fact we play an Axe warrior instead of a Greatsword warrior already speaks a lot about the job on that aspect.

Paladin: I feel like Paladin should be more focused on being a support tank than anything else. The fact he can't use raise in battle and his cure doesn't scale of VIT status bugs me. We have all of the defensive cooldowns in the world but the job itself doesn't scream "tank with white magic benefits to help the party" at all. Giving protect and stoneskin to a tank doesn't make it a Paladin.

Monk: I don't play Monk that much so I don't have a clear opinion, I'd just like to point that I'm tired of SE givin' us MNK weapons with BLADES on a job that's supposed to punch and cause blunt damage. Like, really? Blades? That and the fact I think the job should have more kicks and also more utility, since monks on FF fanchise/universe are known to be powerful with martial arts and healing supportive skills.

Dragoon: I miss impactful jumps. And one of the things I miss the most when it comes to the Dragoon job on XIV is the ability to use some sort of reraise skill. Dragoons have always been a "high risk" job and liking it or not they die a lot, regardless of which FF we are talking about. And that's why I feel like they need this super long reraise cooldown.

Bard: I don't even know where to start. This job feels alright as an archer, bowmaster, hunter or what else you want to call it, but as a bard I felt so disappointed I don't even know how to express it. I understand this game has no dedicated support DPS role, but to call this job a Bard is frustrating, at the very least.

White Mage: No complains. I just wish this game could have more dept when it comes to spells. I wish I could manage when to use protect, shell and reflect. As well as reraise, but I like the job as it is.

Black Mage: When it comes to the Black Mage I wish the job had something else other than Fire and Blizzard, and even with Fire and Blizzard maybe different ways of dealing with that. Like Lulu, per example. Black Mages are known for having access to Drain and Osmose (that would bring more excitement to me instead of going blizzard and just waiting the MP bar to refill), as well as Poison spells, Demi and Death spells. I wish I could se more of that and more complexity to the job but on a fun way instead of a "I need ot keep track of my enochian" playstyle.

Summoner and Scholar: I like the way Scholar play, I don't like the way Summoner is designed. What I really wish I could do as a summoner without being super OP as a job would be having a system like Guild Wars 2. On GW2 as soon as you switch weapons, your skills are automaticaly replaced on your hotbars to that weapon of your choice based. I wish I could have something similar as a summoner, in which instead of actively summoning a primal I would instead use it's energy to replace my spells with his spells, similar to what we can do with Bahamut's power, but better. Either that or a Yuna-like type of Summoning in which the moment you have a summon on the battlefield you either mount it or move alongside with it. I would also like to see changes on the whole summoning thing, because right now there is zero tactics or strategy when it comes to summons. If one dies you can instantly cast another one as if it was nothing, and I like the whole connection thing with the "pets" on MMOs. As a whole, I think SMN is a failure.

Ninja: Also not one of the jobs I play the most, but I like it. I just think it doesn't feel quite like a ninja. FF ninjas have the ability to use items on your inventory as weapons pretty much regardless of what it is, and also the ability to equip different types of weapons. The fact that as ninjas we can't even use kusarigamas (or chain-scythes) is meh. Ninja would be the perfect job for you to choose if you'd like to play it melee (Sais and Wakizashis) or ranged (Kusarigamas and Shurikens). But I know that's complicated to be done, so it's understandable.

The last three jobs: I feel like Machinist should feel more like an Engineer and less of an archer with guns. I also feel like the DRK could be more of a debuffer tank, but I have the feeling the Samurai (if it's released and if it's a tank) will fill that spot quite well. As for the AST it's a mixture between white mage and time mage, though I'd like to see more slow spells on it along with more ways to manipulate the enemy, since that's essentialy what time mages do. If all the dungeons followed a FFXII style to be full of random traps and things like that, even a float spell would start to be usefull. I feel like the job needs to be completely redone, but if that ever happens it's going to be on 4.0+


QoL changes: Though this is not completely related and quite off-topic, I feel like small changes could make the jobs play better overall. Right now everything feels like it's a run between dpsing/tanking/healing and keeping track of dozens of timers at once, which imho isn't that fun anymore.

PLD should learn shield oath first, and maybe even do some damage with flash. Use raise during combat, have cure scaling of VIT with increased mana cost and maybe having the stun as an oGCD.

WAR could share the same icon skill between Defiance and Deliverance skills. You can't use them if you're outside of your stances, you need to be in the right stance in order to use the right skills and I see no reason to why they shouldn't be sharing the same slot anyways.

I feel like DRG has some redundant cooldowns and mechanics. I know some might disagree but why not make Heavy Thrust a stance that you can use like Kiss of the Viper or Cleric Stace to begin with? Why not just increase the potency of some skills (jumps?) and just remove the jump buff cooldowns?

BRD should have Wanderer's Minuet as a trait. If you stay still for 3 or more seconds you enter wanderer's minuet mode and start casting without autoattacking, but as soon as you start moving again you automaticaly toggle it off and is able to instant cast your stuff.

SMN as well as NIN could use a change to the Aethertrail Attunement and Ninjutsu timers. I see no need to keep track of that with a timer if you can't use stuff without a target anyways (saving huton and doton, but you shouldn't be using doton). The fact you would be able to just make your jutsu and leave it there to be used whenever you want to, it being right away or not would be way better. You still take the risk of messing it up (bunny?) but don't have to worry about casting a last second Raiton for the mob to die before you can use it. Same applies to Aethertrail Attunement, that shouldn't have a timer either and instead just work like Aetherflow stacks.

BLM really needs to be able to move Ley Lines along with the player when using Aetherial Manipulation. OR be able to use Aetherial Manipulation without a selected target and instantly "fly" to where the Ley Lines are. Not only that but removing Mana ward and Mana wall to replace it with a shorter cooldown with both effects together would be better.

I'm glad MCH isn't going to have a timer for ammunition anymore, so maybe that's a start for some future changes.

My point is that we have already a lot of things going on, and having three bars of 10 skills/spells to keep up with a simple rotation is a bit too much. I don't want things to be tuned down to the extremes but as we venture further into expansions it's inevitable that we'll get more and more spells, skills and abilities. At some point we'll need to either remove skills and spells that do essentialy the same thing and merge them into one, or turn some of the skills we already have into traits, since this game doesn't offer a character build.

Smn isn't a Smn, think that's pretty much been established.

I still feel Drk was suppose to be a DPS, but i'm enjoying it regardless so i guess no really complaint...

I Feel they should of just made an Orchestra class and paired Bard and Dancer into it.

Honestly I feel like classes match up pretty well with their namesakes. There is little I would change one way or the other, (though BRDs and MCH shouldnt have casting times, imo).

Really though, If there was one thing I would alter slightly, it would be to give WHM a unique ability. I feel that's lacking. Scholar has a pet, AST has the Cards. WHM has.... hmm.

I know people make comparisons that WHM is like PLD, it's reliable at it's job. But even PLD has a shield to make it feel special...

I know healing needs to be balanced so people don't favor one healer over another but... I feel like WHM needs something to set itself apart. Given it's proficiency with healing magic, what if WHM could Resurrect while negating Weakness? Or reducing it drastically? I feel like it would fit well with its theme of "Empowering players through holy forces" kinda deal. And it would make WHM a little more unique. It wouldn't make the class "More viable" than another, because if healing classes do things right, people shouldn't die. It also fits with WHMs current role as more of a "Forgiveness" healer (Also a good name for the move/trait) that can pick up the slack with groups that are learning.

Meh, just a thought...

I fit into the "Ultra-casual (lite edition)" category of player so my perspective isn't necessarily as wide as it could be, but... it seems like there's so much that seems forced or illogical with the jobs in this game?

Personally I feel very strongly that SMN is a spectacularly miserable failure when comparing theme and execution. Literally everyone has heard the arguments before so I won't restate them in as much ranting depth as I'd like... but I'm not sure how SE thought they could create a summoner that has almost no summoning capacity and hope that would be adequate. I know they pretended to fix it in 3.0 with the Dreadwyrm nonsense but really it's just more direct nukes, and no-one is fooled. I refuse to accept it as summoning anything. Also, the 2.0 job quests? "Nice job doing all these Summoner-y things, here's Fester as your reward." Uhh.... what?

Certainly SMN appears to be fine mechanically and all that, but it really is just the logical progression of Arcanist rather than anything that lives up to the name of Summoner. They really need to start again with the Summoner name if they want to create anything worthwhile. Split "SMN" and SCH into separate jobs entirely with a partially duplicated moveset, rename our current "SMN" back to Arcanist, and create something new! My personal preference is strongly for a proper pet job, and I think it's doable in the system we have if SE are innovative and flexible enough.

I also hate the books. Like, really hate those arcanima tomes. I can't rationalise this but I have to say it. It's also pretty telling when a summoner's main weapon is one that is consistently associated throughout Final Fantasy with a completely different job .

Part of the reason I've been a dabbler in this game, and that I take year-long breaks, is my utter disappointment in SMN. I'm trying again by pretending I don't even have it levelled, and instead trying something new; we'll see if that helps.

The Archer to Bard thing also doesn't make much sense to me, and if I cared more strongly about Bard's image as a Final Fantasy concept then I'd probably be as annoyed with this iteration as I am about SMN. I have no problem with bards using bows, but from my limited playtime of the job you seem to sing songs so rarely; they should be the core aspect of the job. It's also really jarring in the questline when the NPCs try to justify the job's evolution... It's just repetition of "Btw, you know how harps and bows both have strings? Totally makes sense. Really! Honest!" and it actually makes the transition seem even more awkward and baffling, just through the constant attention that's drawn to it. As an aside, I'm also going to just say "Wanderer's Minuet" and echo the crushing weight of the rest of the threads on that topic.

I suppose I am also disappointed that they combined Thief and Ninja into the ROG>>NIN progression; though it's traditional to go from THF to NIN in Final Fantasy, the two jobs have such a different conceptual feel that it seems like a huge missed opportunity. I would potentially be interested in playing a good Thief class, but I have zero interest in Ninja.

Lastly, I have no practical experience with DRK, but... why is it a tank? Again, it feels very forced and artificial - SE needed a tank people wanted to play, DRK was popular, squash them together and hope for the best?

In a more general sense, it seems like a lot of the jobs in the same role are very "same-y". I don't know if that's a direct consequence of the WoW clone format (never played it myself) or something perculiar to XIV, but it feels like such a shame. I know that this is because all jobs have to be roughly equal for Duty Finder etc to work correctly, and to maintain balance, but it seems like it crushes creativity. It's also disappointing that there is no space for support jobs (BRD AST and MCH don't count, sorry) and no hybrid jobs for similar reasons.

I'm dreading the implementation of jobs like RDM and BLU within the current paradigm. Unless SE mixes things up, it will not work and we'll just have another SMN on our hands. But I suppose I'll then be able to rant about them in this thread! Silver linings and all that.

White mage is completely self-reliant as a healer, and is good at what it does, whereas the other two healers are supplementing their abilities. Its kinda nice to have a healer who can already do exactly whats needed. With huge spells like Holy and Benediction, whm feels like the heavy-impact healer to me, along with its healing buffs so it can heal as well as the others without a pet fairy or cards.
idk personally, i think what makes white mage special is that its well rounded on its own, without having to borrow from other powers

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Originally Posted by Coltvoyance

I feel like it would fit well with its theme of "Empowering players through holy forces" kinda deal.

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Where are you getting this feel from? We're powered by very angry and powerful tree spirits, and their relationship between us and them is neutral at best.