Overriding Ast Cards.

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

RNG has it's place - the raft of Card games, Hearthstone etc show this - the problem is developers see something that works in one environment and mistakenly think they can port it over to a different one.
And that's where it goes wrong, when you throw it into a class environment that shouldn't be based on I'm lucky / You're not lucky, but on having output based directly on input. Deciding on which one of your class's skills to use should be the challenge - as it with the other classes, and in other mmo's. Not select the ability....and oops, look what's popped up! That's just laughable for any class.

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But we have critical strikes and varying skill hits too. I know other MMOs with those. I know other MMOs with procs as well. You press the same button and even if you don't crit you get slightly different numbers each time. Crits randomize it further. No job in this game gets the exact output every time for all of their skills. RNG is a part of RPGs just as much it is a part of card games.

What I find most important is how much the RNG affects your success. Having crits be 10 times as strong as regular hits would be intolerable. Having attacks do any damage only when they crit would be intolerable. But because you still get roughly the same kind of hits each time, you can still be successful even if your heals / damage spells have minor fluctuations. RNG doesn't have to mean that you have no control over your success.

Healers get randomly reduced MP costs and cast times and increased heals and yet those don't bother you as much as the cards do. I'm going to take a guess and say that's because you feel you still get healing done no matter what but with cards you feel like you either get a benefit or you don't. I don't like binary chances either (like getting a loot drop or not) but AST cards are not win or lose. You win every time, but in unexpected ways. Just like in card games where you might draw a good or a worse card but it's still a card nonetheless. And at the end of the day, even if you draw nothing but Ewers and Spears all dungeon you can still heal just as well as any other healer.

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Originally Posted by Norleas

I would prefer if other ASTs cards can just stack, but SE is too scared of everything being op.

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I feel like this would be a good fix if any is needed. At the moment it is not worth replacing SCH with a Noct AST, which means that Diu AST / SCH would remain a better comp than Diu AST / Noct AST even if cards were stackable.

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

The OP raised a problem of the cards, showing that they do need fixing. That's just one issue.
When you see people going through the entire dungeon not bothering with them at all - and the group still successful - it shows they are an unsuitable mechanic for a fast moving and hectic group encounter.

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I'm sorry but this is some of the worst logic I've ever seen.

I can go through an entire dungeon without using my fairy, or a single cooldown as a paladin, or even any move that isn't heavy shot on my bard, does that mean all this stuff also needs fixing? No, it doesn't.

Don't use bad astrologian players as an example for an argument please. That's just ridiculous. Any AST that doesn't use their cards is bad and/or lazy, and it has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the system.

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

"Your fate is supposed to determine"? - Really?
So it's now reduced to some king of mmo karma tosh? Is that honestly a sound basis for pot luck ability in a class - sorry Astro you've just been given the wrong ability because Jupiter has entered Uranus...sounds about right for that argument.

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AST was based on astrology and tarot card fortune telling. Just a fact. If you don't like it then don't play it? From this alone it seems you don't really like astrology or fortune telling at all. So I don't get it. Go play a non astrology/fortune telling based job?

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

that's where it goes wrong, when you throw it into a class environment that shouldn't be based on I'm lucky / You're not lucky, but on having output based directly on input. Deciding on which one of your class's skills to use should be the challenge - as it with the other classes, and in other mmo's. Not select the ability....and oops, look what's popped up! That's just laughable for any class.

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How come you never mention WHM and SCH then? You do realize they both have their own forms of RNG that makes their job more efficient? Or are you just blinded by your mentality of "cards are RNG, RNG is bad, AST uses cards, AST needs to be redone, and RNG has no place in job skills" even though RNG is littered all over the other jobs in this game too and as general mechanics like Critical hits and Accuracy?

WHM Trait called Freecure http://xivdb.com/action/50062/Freecure is an RNG chance that you can cast a Cure II at no MP cost. This can be extremely valuable in difficult content and could even cause managing MP to become a lot easier if you get lucky. It is just a bonus though so the job can be played fine without it same with AST and their cards.

Another WHM Trait Overcure http://xivdb.com/action/50063/Overcure this is another case of RNG that can help MP management. It is more situational than Freecure but its still there.

SCH has Criticals as a main part of its shielding heal mechanic. Criticals are R N G. Critical Adlos are extremely powerful and can turn a close to death hit on a tank to a tickle instead, but again its RNG.

SCH has a trait called Enhanced Pet Actions http://xivdb.com/action/50120/Enhanced+Pet+Actions which is an RNG chance when a pet criticals that you will gain 20% more spell speed. Needed? No, but its still there and still RNG.

Many other jobs in this game have RNG as a mechanic too, not only healers. Yet I only see you harping on about ASTs RNG....I wonder why? If RNG is the main factor about your argument that it should not be part of any class skills then ...pretty much most of the jobs in the game fall under your argument in one way or another, but I never see you mention any other job's RNG but AST? How come you don't post an overall suggestion to SE to remove all RNG factors from all jobs in the game (and also the stats Accuracy and Crit would need to be removed)? You could do that you know.

Here is a few more RNG stuff related to classes you should probably read up on so you know everything to tell SE to remove:

http://xivdb.com/action/50047/Heavier+Shot
http://xivdb.com/action/50055/River+Of+Blood
http://xivdb.com/action/25/Shield+Swipe
http://xivdb.com/action/50076/Firestarter
http://xivdb.com/action/50077/Thundercloud
http://xivdb.com/action/50071/Enhanced+Scathe

You keep singling out AST as if it is the only job in this game that has an RNG mechanic with it, and obviously it totally isn't. It isn't looking good for you if you dislike RNG so much since it is littered everywhere in this MMO and also many others. Maybe these types of games just aren't along the lines of what you would enjoy?

If we really wanna argue over RNG, I think MCH is the worst offender of all (least pre 50, didn't level past 52) when your just spamming your first combo hoping for the proc while your shots are down.

Overriding the card,huh...
I'm no main healer so I don't know how to feel about that.
BUT I think its the same as when I ran as goon and the other goon Overriding my litany without waiting it to drop.
so yeah its annoying.

I have a general dislikes of over-rides >.> Sometimes a knee-jerk "wat =_=", but I'm fairly patient about them... just depends on the situation on a whole.

If I realize I've overridden, I try to apologize when I can (when not dodging or healing insanely - and even then, I can type a "shit, sorry!" fast enough within cast time of a heal. Because I understand how it feels and I want to make it known that I know I've done effed up/am sorry for the mistake) and try harder to be more observant (often, I realize something just as I make the mistake >_> Unfortunately, this may come across as though I planned it :( ).
If I continue to do it... I'm not a spiteful or trollful person. I'm probably having a crappy day.

I'm generally okay with/patient/understanding of accidental over-rides with something I feel is less important than what I'd already given to someone.
Sometimes you just don't realize, or if a single person has the card buff and it's hidden amongst other buffs in the party list.
Or maybe the person got lost in the moment.
Or maybe they're New. Panicking. Didn't realize.
But nothing I would even consider something to rant about. Here and there or once or twice is whatever.

Or in a case or two that I've done, thought you had a different effect RR'd and was just acting on (false) memory. For example - thinking I was putting an extended bole on the tank - instead I put an expanded bole on the tank and everyone around them |||OTL
(Every now and then, I end up putting a balance on myself, thinking I was spreading balance on the surrounding people around myself (Only to remember I already used the expanded effect on a different card just prior -_- *Flips table*).
The shame I feel when I see a single balance on a myself as an AST. Like a big red flag of 'loooool look at me, I'm a nub! \o/'

I'm NOT okay when the AST keeps over-riding cards as if they were the only AST in the party and consistently does so without even an ounce of observation. It's rude and after a number of times, insulting >_> (I was half a step from strangling one AST cohealer, in Seph EX.... I wanted to take those spreaded spears and shove them somewhere... They pretty much over-rid my cards at every chance, not even 10 seconds (sometimes less) after I'd spread something else or ewer'd myself (ARGH) and it's not like I just throw somethign exactly when Draw comes on CD - there's periods of pause when I prioritizing healing/mechanics over drawing or using. And it's not that difficult to see when it's expanded in party list or graphically in front of you).

Only time I'll over-ride something better, on purpose (but usually out of bad luck and necessity working together), is if I'm in a fight that's proving to be MP intense and no BRDs to help (and mp regen on CD at the moment of concern). In those cases, I'll spread an emergency ewer (and hope to RR an extended or +'d to use for it on single target.... I forgot the word for it o.o) and just work with RR + presently Drawn card to give to the party.... but if shit is hitting the fan and I or both healers are mp starved and I just happen to have Expand in RR - I'll consider the decision that being able to continue healing to keep people alive is a little more important than the Balance/Arrow.
I've sometimes tried to separate myself from the party when I'm in that situation and the other healer doesn't need it, but can't always do so in position-hungry fights and you need it, like, NOW.

....but that's a fairly specific situation. >_>

Stacking would make the AST class too OP, just make it so the better card stays when a lesser card is being applied.

PS: Doesnt this also happen with SCH shields? I dont play with other SCH anymore, but I can remember someone overriding my shield once.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

Stacking would make the AST class too OP, just make it so the better card stays when a lesser card is being applied.

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Agreed - but who is to say which is the lesser card, due to circumstances?
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except for Spear.
Spear can go rot.

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PS: Doesnt this also happen with SCH shields? I dont play with other SCH anymore, but I can remember someone overriding my shield once.

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They probably do, but I see it as less of a problem unless you critted an adlo/succor and the over-shielder did not, since they both serve the same function.
I've never played with double SCH, while on SCH (only got mine to 60 via regular dungeons with FC... and then ran away from it), so I can only theorize why there aren't as many taking issue, than there is with the AST card over-write.

Edit> Realized you meant Noct AST and SCH shields, not SCH and SCH shields o_o /derp
Most ASTs won't Noct if there's a SCH in the party (getting sect locked by accident not included >.>), but yeah, they will override shields...

Not sure about Adloquiem vs Aspected Benefic, but yes, Aspected Helios will overwrite Succor. Did that by accident recently - and that was when I realized that I'd accidentally started the fight with Noct Sect with a SCH in the party. >_<

Aspected Helios (150 potency, 120% shield) is slightly more powerful a shield than Succor (150 potency, 100% shield), so I don't know if Succor would also overwrite Aspected Helios (is it first is always overwritten by second, or more powerful overwrites and blocks less powerful?). Bottom line, though, is you can't have both up at once.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

Stacking would make the AST class too OP, just make it so the better card stays when a lesser card is being applied.

PS: Doesnt this also happen with SCH shields? I dont play with other SCH anymore, but I can remember someone overriding my shield once.

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Its one thing when comparing Expanded and Enhance, but what about Extended?

I don't get the hate for spear, letting you use all your skills sooner after you used em is a good time for any class to (almost) go crazy with popping buffs.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

I don't fully grasp the hatred for Noct stance. Or, at least, I don't see why Diurnal is so vastly superior. The only explanation I've seen delves into the need for DPS or Regen having a higher potency after all the ticks are added.

But that takes TIME, something you don't always have! I'd rather be a SCH-lite with muh cards and prevent damage in the first place, and Noct boosts your heals just by being in the sect, giving you a better stand AS healer. Stronger heals=more chances to DPS and use cards.

Nocturnal isn't garbage by any means. You still have that same synergy with a WHM if you utelize the sheilds correctly.


Really, the only reason I diurnal is if I'm paired with a Scholar. Otherwise, we nerf each other, and it's not worth it!

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I ment to reply to this yesterday, but the I think its more because the shield is a one and done where as dirunal you can but two HoTs, Collecting Unconscious and then boost it all to a max of 20secs more and it will keep going, throw an enhanced bole and that tank aint going down even if he tries. The noct shield only has so much defense on it before it shatters, can't apply a 2nd and would need to be reapplied in a few secs. Least that is how I see it. I do enjoy Noct myself and will jump into it if I am paired with a 2nd but for the most part Diurnal seems to be my go to even with a WHM.

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

I don't get the hate for spear, letting you use all your skills sooner after you used em is a good time for any class to (almost) go crazy with popping buffs.

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2 words, rigid rotation. Some of Jobs have rotations that require use of cooldowns at specific times, as well as with other people's cooldown. The only people with rotations more freeform rotations are Healers, and SMN, while those that benefit becuase of liberal use of coodowns would be Tanks, MCH and maybe NIN.

Its not a bad card, just the epitomie of the strategic requirements needed for AST

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Its not a bad card, just the epitomie of the strategic requirements needed for AST

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^ this
Just very specific, narrow times and use, as Morningstar said. Half the time I get one, it's already in mid battle and everyone's got their CDs used already. Spear doesn't effect CDs already on cool down, only ones that haven't been used yet.... and are most are not going to know which ones are/aren't already on cool down and on whom. It's only real use in a party that is communicating via TS/etc or is used at the beginning, before a pull. :/

Last time I used a spear, mid battle, was me being extremely frustrated to be mixed with the combo of... Draw (Ewer) -> *royal roaded* -> Draw (Spear) -> Shuffle -> Ewer -> ROyal ROad.... -> Draw (Spear) -> Shuffle -> Spire -> Royal Road.......-> Draw -> Spire -> Shuffle -> Spear -> FLIP TABLES -> Rage-Use Expanded Spear
(and if it actually caught someone at the right time, then 'yay! \o/' - but I doubt it)

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If we really wanna argue over RNG, I think MCH is the worst offender of all (least pre 50, didn't level past 52) when your just spamming your first combo hoping for the proc while your shots are down.

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Yes, definitely. MCH felt weaker to me at the starting levels than DRK did, which sure doesn't seem right.

Don't know if that still applies post-3.1 tank adjustments and such.

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I don't get the hate for spear, letting you use all your skills sooner after you used em is a good time for any class to (almost) go crazy with popping buffs.

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That there is the problem. How do you know they aren't already on cooldown? Hell, why would they be sitting there with their cooldowns ready to begin with? If they are that inattentive with their cooldowns in the first place, do you really think they're going to notice you giving them Spear?

Even if you do manage to land it on someone just before they use their cooldowns, you have to take a look at the benefits. Balance is straightforward: a 10% boost to damage. Arrow is almost the same since it lets you use GCDs more quickly, and has the added benefit that it assists non-dps GDSs as well (cures). With Spear, you have to ask yourself: even if someone pops all their buffs at the right time, is it really going to measure up to the benefits of an Arrow or Balance? Perhaps in some cases, for some jobs. But that's a WHOLE lot of variables: you need to catch the right job, at such a time that they have a lot of job abilities that are going to come due in that narrow 20 second window Spear provides.

Spear could be much improved by extending its duration to a minute (two minutes with Royal Road duration extension). You have a reasonably good chance that a targeted player will use multiple Job abilities in that timeframe. Why they chose to make this card have a SHORTER duration than the much-easier to use Balance or Arrow, I have no idea. It does make it an easy choice for Royal Road, though!

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Spear could be much improved by extending its duration to a minute (two minutes with Royal Road duration extension). You have a reasonably good chance that a targeted player will use multiple Job abilities in that timeframe. Why they chose to make this card have a SHORTER duration than the much-easier to use Balance or Arrow, I have no idea. It does make it an easy choice for Royal Road, though!

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That change would be hampered by the whole "can only have one card buff active at a time" thing, though.

If they got rid of that silly rule at the same time, then yeah, it might serve more of a purpose.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

That change would be hampered by the whole "can only have one card buff active at a time" thing, though.

If they got rid of that silly rule at the same time, then yeah, it might serve more of a purpose.

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Id rather they just got rid and replaced it with an accuracy buff :P

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Id rather they just got rid and replaced it with an accuracy buff :P

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That would be even more worthless of an effect than what Spear has already...

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

Id rather they just got rid and replaced it with an accuracy buff :P

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I'd rather a crit buff

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

That would be even more worthless of an effect than what Spear has already...

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Not for the healers who don't meld accuracy, but there shouldn't be a buff specifically for them...especially since they can just meld accuracy.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

Id rather they just got rid and replaced it with an accuracy buff :P

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I would suggest a healing buff. 10% of damage dealt by target is also dealt as healing to a random injured target during the duration. It might be mostly overhealing for Diu because of HoTs but for Noct it would work as a valuable source of fairy-like free healing.

The thing about Spear being useless has been said by now well..
I rarely use Spear as People say it really needs to be used in the beginning of a Fight or else it depends on the Player who receives it.

Fixing it wouldn't be a hard thing afterall.

Whenever you would use it on someone, it has a percent-based Chance to lower the Cooldown itself by seconds.
So you have used Wildfire as MCH, you receive Spear and Wildfire is on 90 Seconds Cooldown, Spear will drop it by any chance to 85 / 80 / 75 / 70 Seconds.

Extended Spear = The more Chances you get since Spear lasts longer
Enhanced Spear = The removal of seconds get stronger, if it was 5 seconds before, it is 7,5 second or 10 seconds, depending how it affects the Gameplay...
AoE Spear = Everyone has a Chance to trigger a 2.5 second shortage of their Abilities.

The decrease of your Cooldown would not be once, hence why it has a percent-based Chance.
Though... Square Enix would need to fiddle around with that as you know, Ability Changes can be "disasteriffic" if they're broken.

But then, my hopes ain't high and Spear will remain how it is...

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Originally Posted by Mwynn

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I could actually get behind that, perhaps not so much fixed but assuming they could do it 10% of remaining time is deducted. So if its 100 sec on cooldown and it ticks, drops to 90. Then for the next while no ticks hit and you find yourself at 60secs left, it hits, now your at 54sec. Meaning more beneficial to use just after everyone pops to get the biggest return as it diminishes over time.
Say base is 10% - Aoe is 5% - Enhanced at 20% (or 15%) or a better chance to tick perhaps?

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

I could actually get behind that, perhaps not so much fixed but assuming they could do it 10% of remaining time is deducted. So if its 100 sec on cooldown and it ticks, drops to 90. Then for the next while no ticks hit and you find yourself at 60secs left, it hits, now your at 54sec. Meaning more beneficial to use just after everyone pops to get the biggest return as it diminishes over time.
Say base is 10% - Aoe is 5% - Enhanced at 20% (or 15%) or a better chance to tick perhaps?

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I honestly find that even better, as that would scale and wouldn't break Spear at all or overpower the other Cards. Mainly every Card has it's uses now, even Bole has it's uses.

I find myself screwed if get Spear... I know when I use it during Battle, it has no impact.
Only us Astrologians, have the Ability to make true use of that Spear Card on ourselves...

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Not for the healers who don't meld accuracy, but there shouldn't be a buff specifically for them...especially since they can just meld accuracy.

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A temporary (and of unreliable availability) buff for accuracy for the healer only should never be a focus, especially when it will come at the cost of some extended Royal Roads.

If you want to be able to hit things, you get the accuracy on your gear. There's no excuse for not doing so anymore, particularly nowadays when even blue gear is meldable and tier V materia has gotten much more available.

Spear working on shortening existing cooldowns isn't a bad idea to improve it, but I'm guessing SE would balk at the possibility of a single cooldown being shortened multiple times. It wouldn't take many Spears to shave a whole minute or more off of Hallowed Ground or Benediction, even if each Spear only took off a percentage of remaining time - and that starts to creep into the territory of balancing issues. Perhaps if there was a way to ensure that Spear could only affect a given cooldown one time - but that means tagging almost every cooldown in the game with a "Have I been Speared yet?" variable, which might be a pain to implement.