Should Summoner...

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Originally Posted by Saggo

Subtle, unfounded, and unnecessary.

I have no doubt a majority of players played SMN that way, it's easier, simple. That doesn't mean that was best utilizing your avatars, and there are still good lessons learned about the way 11 SMN could be and was played (my experience wasn't unique either).

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I wasn't being subtle. You were either misinformed, didn't seek the knowledge or just flat out chose not to make simple choices to improve what you could bring to the table. It was necessary to say because this entire thing is about how you're saying every summon was the right choice, which isn't true. Very founded because the numbers never lied. Shiva and Garuda were the proper summons at that point in the game, you could choose other summons but why? Why when those 2 could do more damage even at elemental disadvantage.

Trust me when I say that SMN would have loved to have had every summon at their disposal (Optimally), don't be silly. Simplicity and ease had nothing to do with it. There was nothing hard or complicated about the elemental wheel.

But you do you, Boo. We've already agreed that XI doesn't have a place in XIV so we should probably try to stabilize this thread before we take it further off track.

Of course, disparaging remarks and exaggerations at others is what was needed. Classy.

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Originally Posted by Saggo

Of course, disparaging remarks and exaggerations at others is what was needed. Classy.

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I won't leave accusations unanswered. Feel free to have the last word if it makes you feel better, it wasn't my intention other than to inform you that spreading falsities as fact is silly. Nothing in there is disparaging, nor exaggeration. You just didn't like what was said.

There's NOTHING wrong with playing a class as you see fit, but don't claim optimization. You wouldn't claim FF14 Ice Mages are optimized, so I don't see why knowingly (Or unknowingly) trying to claim something that's wrong will make it any more right. All the summons except 2 were simply and firmly not optimized for use at that point in the game.

But I keep getting pulled back into this! ^-^

I'll read your next comment if you choose to make one, but I won't continue this discussion anymore because we're apparently both stubborn! We've taken this thread through the ringer, let's just put our fists down and it's understandable if you choose to get the last word or leave it with me.

I think it's at that point where players enjoy their "Super Arcanist" over an actual Summoning class. Which if you do I commend you. I mean you can fire and forget about Garuda after you set up DoT's and fire off Contagion and Enkindle and just let it do whatever for the rest of the battle until said abilities are available again.

I mean the DoT based skills and buildup to Deathflare can be wonderful but it doesn't really make me feel like much of a Summoner. Megaflare just isn't the same without a big epic dragon swooping down and blowing up shit with an energy blast. Even for a few seconds.

Makes me sad. I want Summoner to be better but the notion that BLM paired with Enochian pretty much has their damage boosted by about 90% for free alongside infinite MP is too much to pass up for once a minute satellite laser.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

I think it's at that point where players enjoy their "Super Arcanist" over an actual Summoning class. Which if you do I commend you. I mean you can fire and forget about Garuda after you set up DoT's and fire off Contagion and Enkindle and just let it do whatever for the rest of the battle until said abilities are available again.

I mean the DoT based skills and buildup to Deathflare can be wonderful but it doesn't really make me feel like much of a Summoner. Megaflare just isn't the same without a big epic dragon swooping down and blowing up shit with an energy blast. Even for a few seconds.

Makes me sad. I want Summoner to be better but the notion that BLM paired with Enochian pretty much has their damage boosted by about 90% for free alongside infinite MP is too much to pass up for once a minute satellite laser.

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I wouldn't necessarily say "for free" when their damage is only acceptable with Enochian and it can be flubbed. :P

I completely agree that the biggest problem with changing SMN at this point would be akin to the bard problem. You could make SMN super pet based, but you'd upset the "Super Arcanists", just like how making Bard a Ranger would upset players who play bard for the songs and support. It's certainly a tizzy that holds the development at a standstill.

I think it's a problem that some players are going to have to bite the bullet and accept that their class might change it's core identity, not even just playstyle.

Enoch can be flubbed but fight knowledge easily changes that to having Enoch maintained constantly for much longer then a Summoner's 18 seconds. And in dungeons(even in stuff like Mhach City which isn't hard either) it's practically impossible for me to lose Enochian. Since a triple refresh is the norm before you can just toggle the skill again. Which you'll have on average 75 to 90 seconds of Enochian uptime. Compared to a Summoners no refresh 18 seconds only it's pretty sad for them. And even if flubbed there is no argument that AF3 is a bonafide 80% damage boost to Fire spells.

But Summoner does have it's merits as a utility Mage. Resurrect, traited Virus, traited E4E, etc. Stuff a BLM doesn't have. Mainly resurrect though.

But unlike the BLM a Summoner has to apply some work before they can activate Dreadwyrm Trance, the BLM only has to hit a damn button and they are all ready to go.

I only wish they gave extra focus to the Egi's and gave them utilities for party use. Not gonna happen since the only new pet action was for Scholar which was kill the Pet for healing boost. Which can be good but for Pet class hopefuls I feel it's an insult and only serves as a message that they want to forego the idea of a Pet Class and forget about it entirely.

Hence the current annual focus on what SMN's really need....Carbuncle Glamour....

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

You just didn't like what was said.

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I didn't, but neither did I see fit to attack your credibility.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

All the summons except 2 were simply and firmly not optimized for use at that point in the game.

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Choosing the avatar was always more than just numbers. The right tool for the job was literally the avatar with the right tools and several of them put up useful numbers while doing things that neither Garuda and Shiva could. Ramuh in particular had ever the ever useful stun and comparable damage in Chaotic Strike, for just one example. Numbers don't lie, obviously, but if that's your only criteria then other avatars were being underutilized.

It could easily provide a source of inspiration for summoner mechanics, but they cast aside the lessons there for the relatively homogenized approach of arcanist here.

After reading through this thread I noticed that there was one idea that had not been touched on.

1. Leave SMN as it is with its current set up of abilities, and by this I mean a Pet/DoT job.
2. Have SMN encounter an ancient SMN that teaches you to channel the different primal egi at will. This will allow for more then 3 egi.
3. With this new channel ability the SMN's other spells such as Ruin, Ruin 2, Ruin 3, Bio, Bio 2, Misma, Misma 2, and Shadow Flare take on what ever element the SMN's pet is.
4. Trance also takes on the attributes of the current channeled pet and the large trance attack as well.
5. Each element would have a summon spells, Summon wind, Summon Fire, etc. Each spell would have a flyout listing the obtained egi's. On the PS this could be a flywheel.

With this addition to the current system, the lore would be intact and they could add as many egi as they wanted.

Not a bad idea but thats only part of the complaint, a big complaint is a lack of pet management and pet impact.

One big issue is that x4 pet skills x 6 summons would be very taxing on the cross hot bar. However this shouldn't be an issue as we've seen SE are capable of making a single action that can change into multiple different actions via Ninja. They can also make changes to the current abilities to increase pet management without harming story based abilities. They need to fiddle with the SMN vs pet balance to justify putting the effort into pet management. Smn's spells/abilities also don't have much synergy with their pets making the smn and the pet two seperate entities that play off each other very little.

Replace Contagion, rebalance Smn vs Pet to favour the pet more than current balance and focus summon roles Garuda -> single target dps, Ifrit -> Aoe dps, Titan -> Snap Tank.

All pet skills now become accessible from 4 single skills which transform depending on summoned Egi.

Fester now has/also has the effect of contagion with balancing. Dreadwyrm Trance now gives Ruin III stackable Boost. Boost has the effect of increasing the effect of a pet's Enkindle action.

While we are at this,("rebalancing" a class that is very good at its job, which ultimately will cause it's dps to be lowered, because utility or choice is considered in DPS calculation) can silent dusk be changed from a 1 second silence to an 8 second Magic Vuln down? K thanks bye. :D

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

While we are at this,("rebalancing" a class that is very good at its job, which ultimately will cause it's dps to be lowered, because utility or choice is considered in DPS calculation) can silent dusk be changed from a 1 second silence to an 8 second Magic Vuln down? K thanks bye. :D

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Summoners can't summon Selene.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Summoners can't summon Selene.

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>:[ She's too powerful for Mortal Summoners. Hell we found her in a box and she was like "Aight, take this stone. You my bitch now. The covenant prevents me from doing harm, so get that cleric stance up and kill for your queen." *^*

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

>:[ She's too powerful for Mortal Summoners. Hell we found her in a box and she was like "Aight, take this stone. You my bitch now. The covenant prevents me from doing harm, so get that cleric stance up and kill for your queen." *^*

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No, I want Lunatic Pandora in the form of a dungeon, not Lily suddenly going crazy with one of her aspects. (Plus Magius means that only SCH can summon Lily, in either aspect)

On a side note, I feel like Contagion is too much of a limiting factor in things? Especially since switching egis needs some planning ahead. I'd imaging that people would use Titan and Ifrit more if Contagion was either an ACN skill or just didn't exist (prefer the former). Also if we're gonna be Stuck with Titan, than I feel that he should have some utility, for this I propose using him to transfer Aggro for tank swaps for the cases where Provoke fails/off-tanks doesn't have it because reasons. Two new skills which would be counterparts of Provoke and Smokescreen, one to steal the Aggro form the MT an the other to transfer it to the OT.

Also, I think that pets should also have more abilities either for DPS or Utility, with the player having the option to slot them in the pet hotbar (in addition to reworking the skills so that having the pet out changes the effect, which is probably gonna happen if they go beyond carbuncles for egi glamors, maybe with a relate buff that is simply "a Carbuncle/Egi/Fairie is Summonned")?

People would use Titan more if Earthen Ward was party wide akin to Radiant Shield. But it is not. HW unfortunately outside of a few fixes that should have been done before HW were only looked at when HW released. Titan's sole purpose is overworld content and occasionally dungeon tanking if you don't have one.

I will echo the sentiment for more Pet actions considering the last time the Pets received actions was at lvl40.

I believe thy dont want to add anymore egi's which i find it sad most ppl on FF14 r from WoW dont care i believe long as the job do dmg thy like it

I'm just looking forward to Carbuncle's Enkindle ability. (*'-') Maybe it will be different for Summon I/II/III! If it's Searing Light, like FFXI, maybe he'll stop being a wind-aspected pet and go back to being light!