Would you like an in-game parser?

I'd vote yes and I want to say (or rant?) about the SSS. My BLM is around ilv 215 but can defeat the sephirot ex dummy with around 4 seconds left. Website says my dps is around 1.4k. But I doubt it in field. I might significantly drop because of moving and stuff. What I need is parser on fields not just standing in front of dummy.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

It's often not a case of ignorance.

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I don't mean ignorant of their rotation, I mean ignorant of their parser results... If you don't care about parser results, don't look at them... Personal parser results give you that right... Like I said, the numbers are absolutely meaningless in isolation, it falls to the individual to make sense of them... If I want to see how well I'm doing, I'll look around to see others results, compare that to my own and form an understanding based off that... If I don't give a flip, I'll not care... I'll remain ignorant of what my results mean... No one will be able to chase down my results and harass me for "poor" numbers, so what's the problem?

Do we really think there will be harassment in the Duty Finder, when nobody can see anything other than their own results? The Duty Finder where "Hello" is typically the only word uttered all run? Even if a personal parser suddenly makes the party chat more active, there is nothing stopping people from straight up lying... I can't see your parser results, you can't see mine...

Yes, would like a parser to see the dps I am doing. On PS4 we can only get feed back from someone on PC and sometimes the number they give you feels off. Plus if there is an issue, I would like to see where my dps goes up or down so I can improve without having to ask someone on PC to run a certain piece of content with me just to see. Sure they can parse you on a striking dummy, but it isn't tossing mechs at you that will cause a change in dps for me on blm.

Gonna have to say this every page I feel. q.q

Don't forget to actually like (vote) for the option you want on the first page.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

Gonna have to say this every page I feel. q.q

Don't forget to actually like (vote) for the option you want on the first page.

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Problem with this forum, is it seems alot of people tend to read the OP, and then skip to the last page, so they don't even bother to look at the voting parts. Keeping debates off a topic is unfortunately not gonna happen here

I'd definitely like one in-game because of the accuracy it could provide. ACT and whatnot just isn't 100%, whereas an in-game one could be.

personal or not, it will get abused and drive a wedge in the community.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

Gonna have to say this every page I feel. q.q

Don't forget to actually like (vote) for the option you want on the first page.

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You should probably put something like "VOTE BELOW" with big red letters in your opening post. That way more people will notice.

Yes, but I would only like a personal in game parser.

Only for player. Invisible DPS for other players.

Since dps and your personal performance is so very important in this game, it would be nice to have a means to see if you're in the "O.K." range. They put alot of effort into SSS but a parser coupled with any old dummy would've worked as well.

I challenge you all to provide a single good argument against a personal meter that only the player him/herself can see.

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Originally Posted by Johaandr

NO. This game wasnt made for dps parser thing anyways. People will abuse it and harass around. Not cool:)

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yet there are so many tight dps checks? And if people will not be harassed for a parser they WILL be harassed in any other way :)

People are always going to find way to try and kick or complain about people, it just happens. From the Blackmage who is just learning or only uses Ice to the Healer who just heals instead of DPSing. A parser will help those who really wish to try (and if its a self parser then no worry), we have many people who are already using parsers and silently judging you every run, they just don't say it. Will people get more vocal or try to be rude? Only the ones who would find reasons to complain or kick you to begin with but if people see you trying I would hope common sense will tell them to shut up rather than get snarky and say "Why arn't you hitting more!?! I can do __ dps".

Granted I know I would get the eye twitch going if I could see DPS of everyone and saw the healer constantly at 0.

There's this game I play, where I read the parser threads and then look up the players most vocally for and against parsing on fflogs. You'd never guess where the people against usually fall on the dps scale :þ

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Originally Posted by Deathgiver

There's this game I play, where I read the parser threads and then look up the players most vocally for and against parsing on fflogs. You'd never guess where the people against usually fall on the dps scale :þ

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People do not want to be ostracized for their playing, regardless of how good they are or wether you think they "deserve it".

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Originally Posted by Kallera

People do not want to be ostracized for their playing, regardless of how good they are or wether you think they "deserve it".

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Let me be clear, I run roulette with 2 other fc mates all the time, and someone almost always has a parser up. Do we use the info to tell people that they suck? No. We get a laugh out of the real bads, and we use the info amongst ourselves to compete or better our own game play. The people most vocally against parsing are usually those who have 0 interest in not only bettering themselves, but even putting in the effort it would take to play Mario Kart. If those numbers were in their faces maybe they would engage in their roles more.

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Originally Posted by pushin_tin

I challenge you all to provide a single good argument against a personal meter that only the player him/herself can see.

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As an AST, I wouldn't know who to give Arrow or Balance if I can't see the DPS of my party members.

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Originally Posted by Deathgiver

Let me be clear, I run roulette with 2 other fc mates all the time, and someone almost always has a parser up. Do we use the info to tell people that they suck? No. We get a laugh out of the real bads, and we use the info amongst ourselves to compete or better our own game play. The people most vocally against parsing are usually those who have 0 interest in not only bettering themselves, but even putting in the effort it would take to play Mario Kart. If those numbers were in their faces maybe they would engage in their roles more.

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How about instead of laughing at them, you ask someone who is doing really awful if they would like help fine tuning their rotation? Instead of assuming they "have 0 interest in not only bettering themselves", wouldn't it be better to assume they are new, don't know where to research how to improve their dps, or that something came up IRL that is interfering with their ability to play at their best? I guess you'd rather just "get a laugh out of the real bads."

P.S. i support a personal parser. I'd like to see if changes I make to my gear or rotations are positive changes or not. I don't care to see anyone elses numbers, and don't really care if other people see mine.

As long as it's something only you can see and it reveals nothing about another player, nor has a report function to beat people over the head with, I have no problem with there being one. But if even so much as one of those are possible, absolutely not.

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Originally Posted by MaeIsMean

How about instead of laughing at them, you ask someone who is doing really awful if they would like help fine tuning their rotation?

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We do offer advice... My core group of friends in the game all do tons of teaching parties and offer advice wherever we can. The people I refer to as real bads are the ones who can't even be arsed to press a button every 2.5 seconds, and no amount of advice is going to fix lazy. I'm talking about the i230 geared DPS jobs pulling less than 500 dps. Honestly, I'm happy if someone hits 800 dps on a boss, at least they're putting in some effort, and not just expecting someone to carry them while they're semi-afk.

Nope, I laugh enough at the gitgud brigade bashing people who don't care for massively optimized dps, having an in game parser would drive the game further into their hands and leave us poor casuals at the 'elitists' mercy ><

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Originally Posted by Deathgiver

Let me be clear, I run roulette with 2 other fc mates all the time, and someone almost always has a parser up. Do we use the info to tell people that they suck? No. We get a laugh out of the real bads, and we use the info amongst ourselves to compete or better our own game play. The people most vocally against parsing are usually those who have 0 interest in not only bettering themselves, but even putting in the effort it would take to play Mario Kart. If those numbers were in their faces maybe they would engage in their roles more.

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I may like to know parser numbers on occasion but, I would not trust an official tool, nor do I need to be playing savage to say "I would rather not have official parser numbers become a constant judge of how i should be treated in a party."

Oh I certainly would. Alas....idk if we will ever see one :(

I wouldn't mind a parser.

It's never been about a vote if people want a parser or not however. It's a matter of SE putting a add on module into the game's UI. At the moment it's a large task they choose not to do. The whole debate if we want it or not isn't a thing to them. They know we'd like the option (if only a optional thing and not mandatory), but it's a matter of adding a "add on interface" and they aren't doing that now. Maybe by the next expansion. Last I heard, from last time I saw it brought up on I think it was a magazine interview, it's not high on the "to do" list... It may not be possible with PS3 UI restrictions also.

Just join a start-up raid group and see how you perform. All start-ups will have a PC-master race person running a parse all the time, and the best advice normally is going to be from your statics leadership cause they would want to clear stuff. Just gotta make sure it's a start-up from the ground up so its easier to make mistakes lol.

Other than that, I would love a parser that holds everyone accountable. I don't want to be mean but if you have some kind of back story irl that prevents you from playing your job to the best of your ability...than probably wait till the content becomes dated cause normally when content is still relevant and you can't perform...it's a horrible chain of finger pointing, anger, and finally abandonment.

Yes, please!

You know also to add, if they do suddenly see a spike in reports or people being rude due to the parser they could always just remove it then. Wouldn't hurt to try and see what the outcome is instead of everyone being worried over it. Really only going to go two ways, either people love it or people start getting more hostile and they remove it and then can at least say they tried it before and it didn't work out well for the majority.

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

You know also to add, if they do suddenly see a spike in reports or people being rude due to the parser they could always just remove it then.

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The problem with the reports and it being removed, is how people take information. People could be rude to the reporter, calling them out and mocking them, and damn straight they should be reporting that rubbish. However, the issue I see is the over sensitive people who take advice as offensive to their play style and report on that, and of course the people who will report such things (even if not directed at themselves) just for the sake of reporting to remove it. They may not get the real picture of it even then, and it could be removed when it truly is not even that bad. If it gets added, it should be in a way that it stays.

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Originally Posted by Deathgiver

The people most vocally against parsing are usually those who have 0 interest in not only bettering themselves, but even putting in the effort it would take to play Mario Kart. If those numbers were in their faces maybe they would engage in their roles more.

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Originally Posted by Laurima

Nope, I laugh enough at the gitgud brigade bashing people who don't care for massively optimized dps, having an in game parser would drive the game further into their hands and leave us poor casuals at the 'elitists' mercy ><

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And these two beliefs are the reason why this argument for/against in-game parsers never gets anywhere and goes on for 20+ pages when the thread is made. The side for parsers tends to feel that it's an important tool for players to better themselves and the opposition are seen as lazy people afraid of being called-out for doing minimal effort and get "carried," whilst those against in-game parsers are convinced it will be another tool for harassment and elitism and the opposition are elitist jerks who want to single-out everyone who doesn't meet their obnoxiously high criteria.

Both sides are capable of over-exaggerating the stance of the opposition.

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Originally Posted by MaeIsMean

But it's ok to laugh at them with your 2 buddies, and sneer and call them "real bad" behind their back? Cuz that's what the person I responded to said they did. It's ok if you don't know how to offer help, so you say nothing. But it's not ok to just say "Har har, that MNK is terribad." to your two FC buddies who are in the roulette with you. You don't know the whole story on the MNK, and you have no idea if they're having an off day, if they're drunk, if their kid suddenly came up and puked on them (this has happened to me....), if they had a terrible day at work and really just want to mindlessly mash buttons for half an hour.... I'm sure you don't play at 110%, 110% of the time. To judge someone based off one roulette, to laugh at them... it's not fair, and adding a parser will only result in those insults becoming public, because people feel like they have the right to tell others they're terrible.

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Aside from the fact that you're putting words I didn't say into the your "quotes" of things I didn't say into your argument, you're missing the simple fact that no one is saying they expect the people they play with to do 110 % any of them time (outside of progression statics). Most of us would just be happy with someone who didn't leach and pull less dps then I could accomplish with a single macro, 40 ilvls less gear and no thought put into the process at any point. The reason people keep pointing out the sub 500 dps players is because on pretty much every job you can do more than that just by spamming a 100 potency attack every 2.5 seconds while you're auto attacking.

I literally was curious what it would take to get this low, so I macroed my bard, who was equipped in a mix of 170-195 gear, a combined ilvl of 161 with no head or hands equipped. Using only a heavy shot macro with some of the oGCD skills and buffs my bard puts out over 600 dps in that crap gear. No WM, all I had to do to hit 600 was press 1 button twice every GCD. If my gear was up to date this would have been closer to 850-900 range. Why is it wrong for people to ask for at least that level of effort?

As far as your comments about the players situation:

Off Day - Never said I expect rotational perfection, and I don't believe anyone else who has posted on the issue has stated they do either. People can have off days, and if they aren't holding back the group that's more than fine.

Drunk - Flat out not my problem. If I wanted to hang out with drunk people I'd head to the pub.

Sick kid - I get it, I've had emergencies mid-run too. If it's going to be a hindrance to the party I drop, if it's going to be quick I'll excuse myself in chat. If I'm the other person in the group I'll ask if they need a minute. we're not talking about 1-5 minutes of the dungeon to deal with a problem where you dps goes to 0 or virtually nothing, we're talking about the course of a whole 15-30 minute run where someone is consistently underperforming.

Bad day at work...want to mash buttons - See my comments about the macro above.

Literally the only way to hit under 500 dps is to not be doing anything a really good chunk of the time. If you want to participate in group activities, you should be doing your part for the group, even if it's bare minimum. How many people have complained about enrage on Brute Justice this patch? The party dps requirement is only like 4k, which even if the healers aren't dpsing at all, and the tanks are perma tank stance running 500 dps only requires an average of 650 dps form the actual damage dealers. Despite this low requirement parties are still hitting enrage, sometimes even without anyone dying. Those players causing the wipe are basically expecting everyone else to do literally twice the output they do so they can float along in their happy cloud. Parsers would add some accountability to these leaches.

I say yes but only with premade groups and not with random pug groups that were the abuse I see it come from /shrug duty finder is a blessing and curse at the same time IMO :P

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

More people just replying that they don't want it, in the thread itself. I put it as the second post so people who didn't want it, could easily vote that. I just don't understand how 20~40 people can vote yes for a parser and yet only 3 people have voted no. There doesn't need to be an explanation, towards getting a parser or why not to add one.

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Well, look at it this way. If they weren't replying, this thread would just sink down into oblivion within an hour or two.

Parsing in Savage and Extreme Primals, nothing else.

Otherwise, it'd just be used for harassment if it could be used for all instances.

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Originally Posted by Cidel

And these two beliefs are the reason why this argument for/against in-game parsers never gets anywhere and goes on for 20+ pages when the thread is made. The side for parsers tends to feel that it's an important tool for players to better themselves and the opposition are seen as lazy people afraid of being called-out for doing minimal effort and get "carried," whilst those against in-game parsers are convinced it will be another tool for harassment and elitism and the opposition are elitist jerks who want to single-out everyone who doesn't meet their obnoxiously high criteria.

Both sides are capable of over-exaggerating the stance of the opposition.

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The pro-parser argument can be achieved without making the parser public. If you get numbers, you can 1) compare to online guides or forums, 2) ask your friends, 3) ask your party what they are getting, 4) go to a website where people upload their official parses and find out the 80th percentile for a certain fight, 5) ask Idyllshire what is good dps or 6) compare to your previous results. Or any combination of those.

For what I've seen in these topics. The reasons people argue against a personal parser are either not wanting it to distract themselves (even though they could turn it off), clutter the UI (they could turn it off), witnessing the server culture become dps-oriented (it already is to a degree) and being required to share their results (this is actually a likely scenario but shouldn't be an issue if they are doing well). And the other side wanting a public parser instead so they can single out low dps players (if it's official then the topic of dps numbers in no longer taboo or ban worthy), kick them (sometimes despite being able to clear), laugh at them (hey it's only human nature, right?), offer unsolicited criticism (regardless of weather the performance is typical of that player or some fluke), and to find easy scapegoats when the group dies (regardless of whether it was mechanics or actual lack of dps). I have seen all those and don't kid yourselves: nobody would ever get banned for harassment because it all falls under "playstyle differences". Yet when the number of (public) parser users increases, so will the number of jerks using parsers. The more drivers there are, the more bad drivers there are in a city. Therefore the number of people upset by those jerks will also increase. The number of car accidents is greater with more bad drivers in the city.

Self improvement is the only good effect without downsides that a parser can achieve and that's where a personal parser would really help the people who are not satisfied with SSS. Any other reason to have a (public) parser comes with negative effects of some kind, like someone getting upset. In a game. Which is supposed to be fun. These conversations never go anywhere because people refuse to see the other side and anytime a couple of talkers find compromise (personal parser or opt-in premade group parser), someone else butts in and starts it again with a nice inflammatory "I should be able to enforce my standards and comments on other people in all content" or "no one should be able to see if they are getting better".

Just watch this thread and you'll see.

Oh and BUMP, you're welcome OP.

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Originally Posted by Cidel

Both sides are capable of over-exaggerating the stance of the opposition.

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This is correct.

If anything, the anti-parser party has more to gain from this than the pro-parser community...why you ask...SE has always been the "good 'ol boy" type of corporation. If someone said you looked like a clown and you took offense, suspension, it's really simple. The pro-parser group would take a serious hit it this was implemented with SE's zero-tolerance stance on belittling and bullying. Though the scope excludes RMT since that's just a plague. The stigma of harassment for this would cause this game to become completely casual, a hardcore would only allow himself to hit GM jail for so many times. Who remembers FFXI's 3 hour GM jail time!? I don't, I was a good kid lmao but I have heard this treatment cause hardcore a to either quit or completely stop their abusive "criticism".

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Originally Posted by Johaandr

So its alright to tell em? No. If somebody told me my dps suck then i would be mad and sad and less motivated to play the game cuse of the stupid parsers of theirs.

I bet you were newbeginner too and had no experience.. Unless you took ur time watching some guides in yt.
They gain experience by doing it tho. Like i did loool. Oft.

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I would just say your dps is low, I wouldnt say suck but low. If its low and it's still low after someone tell you nicely its low and need to fix the rotation, that one is on you.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Right? I'll never understand that attitude. "Wahhh! Someone told me my DPS is bad so I quit!" ... errr how about you just get better? Go check the official forums or do a google search to find a guide on your class, read up, and practice? o.O

I'm not the best Monk, but I've been practicing and boy does the improvement show. ^^

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My thoughts. Problem with the parser is, yes someone will abuse the living shit out of it and probably mock players they are bad. Keep in mind no one is perfect and everyone can improve each time they play, well for those who think it's fun being better and knowing their class and play it optimized. Then you have the players who are playing bad but willing to play better so they are willing to take tips and guides from other players (mad respect to those btw, met few of them and I'm so happy you take advice and willing to get better). Then you have those who are going to say, don't be mean, otherwise I will be sad or rage at you. Problem is, yes I do know there are people who will tell you to fuck off sadly because your dps is low, that is wrong, however people should tone it down and say, yes you need to somehow fix your dps and maybe rotation? Like opener and the actuall rotation after an opener? Many times I've sad that to players and oh boy the amazing feedback I get. Not only did they increase their dps, they are soo much more happy knowing they pulling off amazing dps and helping the group, yes by playing your class very very good!

Then you have those who are simply telling me to fuck off and say it's their sub and game. What's most toxic? The guy who tells you in a nice way how to improve your dps in a nice manner way, even putting time to show you them your own rotation, or the player who simply tells you to fuck off?

I got my own opinion right there but I simply won't say it as it should be obvious. Either way sorry for the derail on topic, I wish there was a parser built in game but honestly a personal one would be better simply because it will be mostlikely less harrasment but then again how can we excactly know if they are doing bad or not? There is a big chance many will use it but then wont care they do bad, that's a risk too.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Right? I'll never understand that attitude. "Wahhh! Someone told me my DPS is bad so I quit!" ... errr how about you just get better? Go check the official forums or do a google search to find a guide on your class, read up, and practice? o.O

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In my experience, it's almost never the feedback on performance that's the problem, but the way in which that feedback is given. There's a world of difference between: "/p omg Joe Averagenoob only did 900 DPS on that fight. What a losernoob. Vote kick and git gud." and "/tell Joe Averagenoob Hey, I noticed your DPS was a little low compared to what I've seen. Would you like some pointers to help you perform better, or a guide to help you better understand your job?"

More often, I've seen parsers lead to the former kind of behavior than the latter.

Sure why not because it worked out well for the WoW community. I hear people saying they were flamed for low dps in an easy dungeon that takes 10 minutes to clear, not to mention the fact that no one pays attention to raid mechanics in that game due to needing to top the dps meters. Although a personal dps meter is a great idea to gauge how well you are playing your class if you look up guides that show what you should be doing at your level/gear.

This will be useful for all. I don't think a lot of us give a bad feedback and well as not all of us take criticism as something good cuz they don't want to be pointed out their errors.

We even have this problem that is not just in game but in our daily routine. People will abuse it or will exaggerate and/or accuse others of abusing it cuz of customer/traditions on how our society is rule by.

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Originally Posted by zmandude24

Sure why not because it worked out well for the WoW community. I hear people saying they were flamed for low dps in an easy dungeon that takes 10 minutes to clear, not to mention the fact that no one pays attention to raid mechanics in that game due to needing to top the dps meters. Although a personal dps meter is a great idea to gauge how well you are playing your class if you look up guides that show what you should be doing at your level/gear.

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If you fail mechanics, because you're trying to keep up with your dps, your dps will be low... because death... No one cares if you did 1700 dps in that one phase, if you didn't even clear with that dps. A parser can even show you if someone died, trying to reach that dps. Your goal should be, as much dps as I can squeeze without endangering the raid's/party's success.

I do understand your concern for extremists.