Perhaps a Simple DRK Solution

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chronons

What leads you to believe this? Having BfB would encourage DRK to stay in Grit while MT. While in Grit+Darkside+BfB you are (+5% in +5% out damage) while in Darkside alone you are (+0% in +15% out damage). The difference is that BfB has the benefit of not costing any MP and not costing a GCD to revert back to the tanking stance. Further, you would not ever want to use BfB outside of Grit while MT as you would have +25% damage incoming. DRKs niche among the tanks is its ability to do the most damage while in its tanking stance, this change only improves upon that.

---

100% certain it's not additive.

With Grit on, Dark side pumps you up to 92% damage ( 80% + 15% of that 80%)
With BFB, it's +10% on top of that (101%)

With Grit on (75% damage taken) and BFB (+25% of that), you're taking 93.75% instead.

For the amount of damage you gain, the damage you take is not worth it. You can get this set up now by simply dropping Grit.

Edit: Apparently BFB got changed to 25% damage taken (or maybe it always was? Math edited!)

Why would you use Grit+B4B? It would just make you take more damage with little gain.

Grit decreases all damage by 20%, regardless of how many bonuses you have.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chronons

snip

---

I love how you only cherry picked the first part lol. I guess a real simple solution wasn't good enough because you're hell bent on raising your dps.

There is no real benefit to lowering your defense and increasing the dmg you take while you're in grit besides satisfying yourself with bigger dps numbers.

The point of tanks is to be a wall and lessen the amount of dmg you take not worrying about trying to stack as much dmg %boosts as you can on yourself.

And DRK niche is being the magic dmg minigation tank. WAR is the one designed to do the most dmg while in its tank stance, That's why they get berserk maim and unchained.

B4B on tanks is just a bad idea. There is already tons of awful DRK that couldn't play the class correctly (even though it's easy) if their life depended on it. Giving them B4B would make it even worse and they would quickly rise to ranks of despised classes to run into.

B4B on a tank would be to dangerous, it's the reason why DRK consumes MP and not HP.

One very simple solution to give parry utility to DRK MT/OT, add potential DPS while making PS combo more sweet is adding a slashing debuff to it when non DA. It's a simple change and answers so many problems..

I think the only way for B4B to work is if they adjust the skill. So maybe 15% damage 15% taken so it's literal blood for blood lol.
Doing so would mean that B4B and Darkside with FoF would be on par damage wise.

You do have cooldowns you can use to cover the damage taken. You guys are also forgetting that Soul eater and Bloodbath can get your hp back with the more damage you deal.

The real issue here is getting a provoke if we change DRK to MRD/LNC.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

snip

---

Very cool to know its multiplicative and not additive. I wasn't sure if subsequent skills took into account the effects of previous ones or just used the base statistic. Considering that is the case I still think BfB functions well with Grit. Being that the skills are multiplicative I actually think it makes BfB better. With additive we were talking about an increase of 25% in damage taken for a 10% increase dealt according to your your numbers its actually an increase of 18.75% damage taken for a 9% increase to damage dealt. You are absolutely correct that straight dropping Grit gets you to higher dps numbers, however it costs a significant amount of MP and a GCD - doubled if you need to return back to Grit stance. Adding BfB means in times where actual stance dancing is too risky you can still pseudo stance dance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frost_Tear

snip

---

I apologize if I offended you, my intent was only to address what I felt was the main claim of your post. Your proposal adds utility to DRK as OT, but doesn't address any of the other deficiencies we have discussed. BfB satisfies a number of needs for DRK besides just dps. For example, it more closely resembles the DRK lore and further establishes its unique identity among the tanks. Even if it was purely to increase dps I don't understand your negative attitude towards this? It is the same thing as stance dancing except toned back a little bit. Meaning even when you are stuck in Grit for large portions of a fight you can find moments to do "minor" stance dancing. A tanks role is to be a wall and mitigate damage, but if worrying about damage wasn't important we wouldn't stance dance to begin with. Also, DRK is the only tank that can mitigate some of the damage debuff of the tank stance 100% of the time. That's why MT damage is their niche.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chronons

snip

---

nah i wasn't in the best mood and posted before letting myself cool off. i apologize for being rude.
you make good points and i see why it does have its uses i'm just too hung up on thinking about tons of bad players using it terribly that's all really.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chronons

Very cool to know its multiplicative and not additive. I wasn't sure if subsequent skills took into account the effects of previous ones or just used the base statistic. Considering that is the case I still think BfB functions well with Grit. Being that the skills are multiplicative I actually think it makes BfB better. With additive we were talking about an increase of 25% in damage taken for a 10% increase dealt according to your your numbers its actually an increase of 18.75% damage taken for a 9% increase to damage dealt. You are absolutely correct that straight dropping Grit gets you to higher dps numbers, however it costs a significant amount of MP and a GCD - doubled if you need to return back to Grit stance. Adding BfB means in times where actual stance dancing is too risky you can still pseudo stance dance.

---

Normal=1.0x damage.

Why would you.. activate a B4B in Grit.. when you could drop Grit, get even MORE damage and not take as much damage?

Normal+Darkside+B4B=1.25x damage.
Normal+Darkside=1.15x damage.
Normal+Darkside+Grit=0.92x damage.
Normal+Darkside+Grit+B4B=1.0x damage. The same damage.. for just being normal.

So your idea, doesn't make a lick of sense. You would do 15% more damage just using Normal+Darkside. With Normal+Darkside+Grit+B4B your taking even more damage with 15% less damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Snip. ^

---

It has the peculiar application of multiplying hate generation further which is highly valuable for a DRK. The ability to generate more aggro in their tank stance means they don't have to do it later and can stay offgrit longer and do more Syphon Strike combos.

It's essentially a poor man's Unchained.

Unchained is a godly skill because people don't realize it's not just 33% more damage but 33% more aggro ontop of Tank stance multiplier.

Inadvertently, this is also why Sword Oath is rubbish. It doesn't have that x% effect of multiplying the aggro generation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FallenWings

It has the peculiar application of multiplying hate generation further which is highly valuable for a DRK. The ability to generate more aggro in their tank stance means they don't have to do it later and can stay offgrit longer and do more Syphon Strike combos.

It's essentially a poor man's Unchained.

Unchained is a godly skill because people don't realize it's not just 33% more damage but 33% more aggro ontop of Tank stance multiplier.

Inadvertently, this is also why Sword Oath is rubbish. It doesn't have that x% effect of multiplying the aggro generation.

---

And that is why and one reason I now play and am leveling Warrior. Seeing literally the same numbers as my Dark Knight at level 59 with a weapon that does almost 25 less base damage... and being able to KEEP up with that damage without taking a huge hit to my sustain and getting big hits and healing the same amount as Soul Eater... (which will be double or triple when I get 60.)

Don't see a reason to go or be a Dark Knight, its far inferior in every single way.

Paladin at least has a bonus to defenses.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jukebox12

war lose 25% or was it 20% increase to there hp when they switch stances so basically there taking more dmg when tank stancing

---

All tanks take more dmg when stance dancing. The difference between DRK/PLD and WAR is that our tank stance "defence bonus" takes the shape of additional HP instead of taking less damage. We still take just as many hits before reaching 0 hp (disregarding defensive cooldowns, hp regen ticks and healing done). The main difference is that when stance dancing, PLD/DRK gain their extra defence immediately, whereas WAR don't gain current HP but only max HP when switching to tank stance (basically, they immediately take 20% damage based on their new max hp). Math hidden behind a button, cos... it's sort of irrelevant to this discussion anyway.

Assume that a tank has 1000hp as a base (i.e. without tank stance), and are standing still in tank stance, doing nothing, in a fight where the enemy hits for 100 damage each hit.

Base HP: 1000
WAR HP: +25%, ergo 1000x1.25=1250
DRK/PLD HP: 1000

DMG taken per hit: 100
WAR dmg: 100
DRK/PLD dmg: -20%, ergo 100x0.8=80

1250/100 = 12.5
1000/80 = 12.5

In conclusion, all three tanks would in this case take 12.5 hits to reach 0 hp.

Generally speaking... It would be interesting if they added a third crossclass class to every job. If they didn't add any more skill slots for it, it'd force people to pick and choose which ones they'd want. Especially those jobs that today have to choose between two or three "equally useless" abilities would gain something from it, of course, but even the rest of them would, too.

So for example, DRK could be GLA/MRD/LNC (and PLD/WAR would also be well served with LNC, I think). And you'd be able to customize your crossclass skills depending on what your role would be in the content you went in for ("Today I'm the OT, so I'll grab B4B instead of Foresight.") and what your personal play style fit with (Overpower-happy WARs would be able to slot in Invigorate to use while in Defiance, for example).

I would only use Blood for Blood for Living Dead. Problem is you still take so much damage. "Improved" blood for blood is SO much better then the first one its not funny. I think they should nerf the talent and make the skill base stronger.

15% for 15% would be fair, and Dragoons could get 30% for 15%.

Or 30% for 15% but 10s less duration. I'd rather not be in that situation TOO long. Enough to get my dots and such off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

And that is why and one reason I now play and am leveling Warrior. Seeing literally the same numbers as my Dark Knight at level 59 with a weapon that does almost 25 less base damage... and being able to KEEP up with that damage without taking a huge hit to my sustain and getting big hits and healing the same amount as Soul Eater... (which will be double or triple when I get 60.)

Don't see a reason to go or be a Dark Knight, its far inferior in every single way.

Paladin at least has a bonus to defenses.

---

Don't try and lie to yourself.

You are really full of shiitake mushrooms. The only reason you're playing WAR is because you keep fabricating an endless stream of fecal matter about classes that don't exist. And worst yet, you spread this guttural filth to the uninformed.

I was almost going to write a post detailing why you're wrong about DRK, but then I realized it's pointless to even bother reasoning with someone who discredits Sole Survivor in such an obscene way, it's really just a waste of time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

So your idea, doesn't make a lick of sense. You would do 15% more damage just using Normal+Darkside. With Normal+Darkside+Grit+B4B your taking even more damage with 15% less damage.

---

The difference is that activating BfB while in Grit is less of an investment than stepping out of Grit. Also, as someone pointed out earlier above the skills are multiplicative meaning if you used BfB in Grit you would still be taking 6.75% less damage than normal. From a dps perspective it is of course not as effective as stance dancing, however 3.2 changes to tanks have made stance dancing a less liberal affair for all tanks. That means the gains from BfB while in Grit are potentially substantial. I love the analogy that FallenWings used of a poor mans Unchained because that is almost exactly what this would function as. Also, great point about BfB effect on emnity generation while in Grit. That could lead to more efficient stance dancing for DRK.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/m...-Nektulos-Tuor
I'm just going to leave this here...

Wait... Drk is broken?

Trying to keep up with War in OT is probably not going to get you far since the class really designed around it.