Problem: The Mentor requirements cater to players who have no business being Mentors.

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Originally Posted by IndigoHawk

I don't see the problem. No one needs a crown to help people. If you want a crown, work for it. SE wants mentors to have a wide variety of experience, which seems pretty reasonable for a system with unmonitored approval. So work towards the crown or don't.

Also, making outrageous and rude assumptions about people who have the crown makes it seem like the OP doesn't have the right attitude or enough experience to be an official mentor yet, so maybe the system is working fine.

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The problem is, achievements don't make a mentor, a person does. You can have 99999 achievements and be the worst teacher ever.

"Git guud"." when someone wants to learn to play. "Look at my achievements d00d."

Making mentors based on achievements was a failure to begin with, because over-achievers and teachers are quite different kinds of people.



Its like going to an athlete with 100 medals asking him to teach someone, he may be a very good athlete, but how good is he as a teacher? How does that make sense? It doesn't. Bad designed system, IMO.

They should of just stuck to Everquest's simple mentor system.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

Ya but most of the mentors on Jenova aren't even the slightest helpful. I was in a PF for Sephirot EX with 3 other members who happened to be mentors and after the 3rd wipe they left. Only got to the second phase once with them and only one of them was explaining the mechanics and the other two were positive they knew what to do and on the second phase, yet they caused the wipes.

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To be honest, just because they are a mentor, doesn't mean they have to mentor all the time. I don't think anyone on Jenova has Seph EX down enough to mentor it yet anyway. If they aren't in mentor roulette, I wouldn't expect them to mentor. I get that you might expect more from them, but at this point they are trying to progress through the instance. And you shouldn't need mentoring in there right now anyway. If they were actively mentoring someone and quit, I can see calling them on it, but not in learning pfs, when they are the ones learning.

A lot will probably take off the tag as time goes on though, it's the new thing right now, and not everyone wants to help as much as they might think. I will probably sign up near the end of the patch.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

To be honest, just because they are a mentor, doesn't mean they have to mentor all the time. I don't think anyone on Jenova has Seph EX down enough to mentor it yet anyway. If they aren't in mentor roulette, I wouldn't expect them to mentor. I get that you might expect more from them, but at this point they are trying to progress through the instance. And you shouldn't need mentoring in there right now anyway. If they were actively mentoring someone and quit, I can see calling them on it, but not in learning pfs, when they are the ones learning.

A lot will probably take off the tag as time goes on though, it's the new thing right now, and not everyone wants to help as much as they might think. I will probably sign up near the end of the patch.

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But that's the point of being a mentor, to teach regardless of how far you have progressed in content. You are there to teach what you know not sit around on Bismarck bird and not do anything.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

If u meet req you are more likely to be a better mentor than someone that hasn't meet reqs. Tell me how you disagree

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As mentioned before, having a WHM, WAR and MNK (or whatever combo) leveled does not mean that you will have any idea how to actually play any of the other jobs. Sure, you'll have a general idea how how things work, but that's pretty basic and even those without the holy trinity leveled can pick up on these things.

Also, keep in mind that plenty of people FATE grind jobs. It's easy, it's mindless, and you really don't learn much about the job that way.

There is far more to "mentor" knowledge than simply "How do I play x job?". There are are a huge amount of side quests and dungeons and random items that aren't always obvious. Doesn't take someone with level 60 jobs to be able to figure those items out.

Regarding job knowledge, I personally would rather take advice from a person who really only plays one or two jobs, and plays them well vs. someone who has a plethora of jobs leveled. "Jack of all trades, master of none" comes to mind.

Make a group with someone, mentor them (can do that as long as your higher level of the same class they are.) giving him 50% experience bonus, and you 50% experience bonus on the same class. That is simple, and effective and requires 100000% less work then this probably did.

So, if a 60 Warrior decided to play his White Mage, he could "mentor" a 50 Warrior and do dungeons with him, this would produce an experience bonus to both of them as the mentor taught the mentoree.

There will be always people like those mentioned previously, since because there are rewards tied to it that come soon enough.

Plus the crown thing on the name, Special Snowflake and such.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

But that's the point of being a mentor, to teach regardless of how far you have progressed in content. You are there to teach what you know not sit around on Bismarck bird and not do anything.

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No, the point of being a mentor is to give you a means of getting in contact with people who are looking for help. It does not mean you have to teach and be a mentor every time you log into the game. It's pure foolishness to think so. It does not become your job or even your obligation to do so by signing up.

Joining a PF for seph ex and happening to have a few people who have a mentor crown does not mean they are there to help you, they are there to play the game. If they started a PF and claimed it as a mentoring group, and disbanded like that, I would agree with you, but with your example, I think you are taking the tag as more than you should be.

I would even be more inclined to agree with you if it was content that was not the current endgame stuff.

Also, being a mentor doesn't mean you never cause wipes in endgame, the criteria for becomming one is no where strict enough to even make a comment alluding to that. Hell there are at least two posters on this forum from Jenova, who are mentors, who have no business even teaching the basics of the game.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

Ya but most of the mentors on Jenova aren't even the slightest helpful. I was in a PF for Sephirot EX with 3 other members who happened to be mentors and after the 3rd wipe they left. Only got to the second phase once with them and only one of them was explaining the mechanics and the other two were positive they knew what to do and on the second phase, yet they caused the wipes.

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Being a Mentor doesn't mean you have to explain every single mechanic of every single fight in the game. I can almost guarantee that party was a farm or a clear, not a learning party. It also doesn't mean they're absolute pro's and never make a mistake.

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Originally Posted by HakaseNyan

The mentor crown is a special mall cop badge of importance. If you truly want to help people, then you'll help them no matter what. If a mentor is doing something you find unfitting of mentor status - too bad. Either politely interject and help the player(s) yourself, make a fuss, or keep quiet. Mentor status or not, people will continue to behave the same as they always have. It's not your position to try and police them.

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It's not 'too bad'. If you see a mentor doing something unfitting of the status, file a report. They voluntarily agreed to be held to a higher standard when they put the crown on, and they damn well better be facing the consequences for ignoring that.

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Originally Posted by Pells

It's not 'too bad'. If you see a mentor doing something unfitting of the status, file a report. They voluntarily agreed to be held to a higher standard when they put the crown on, and they damn well better be facing the consequences for ignoring that.

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Unfortunately, that's now how things work. It's already been shown, proven, that GMs do not care unless a mentor does something severe. There are players getting warnings and bans for trying to police mentors with the same ideals many players in this thread have.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

There is far more to "mentor" knowledge than simply "How do I play x job?". There are are a huge amount of side quests and dungeons and random items that aren\\'t always obvious. Doesn\\'t take someone with level 60 jobs to be able to figure those items out.

Regarding job knowledge, I personally would rather take advice from a person who really only plays one or two jobs, and plays them well vs. someone who has a plethora of jobs leveled. "Jack of all trades, master of none" comes to mind.

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You didn\\'t answer my question. Read it again.

Put it this way
U have 2 applicants for a job. The only info u have is one of them has 3 relevant qualifications while the other has 2. Who do u hire?

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

As mentioned before, having a WHM, WAR and MNK (or whatever combo) leveled does not mean that you will have any idea how to actually play any of the other jobs. Sure, you'll have a general idea how how things work, but that's pretty basic and even those without the holy trinity leveled can pick up on these things.
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You didn't answer my question. Read it again.

Put it this way
U have 2 applicants for a job. The only info u have is one of them has 3 relevant qualifications while the other has 2. Who do u hire?

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Originally Posted by alimdia

You didn't answer my question. Read it again.

Put it this way
U have 2 applicants for a job. The only info u have is one of them has 3 relevant qualifications while the other has 2. Who do u hire?

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Well, him obviously.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

You didn\\'t answer my question. Read it again.

Put it this way
U have 2 applicants for a job. The only info u have is one of them has 3 relevant qualifications while the other has 2. Who do u hire?

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Well, this is just a silly game and not a job interview. Point is, people can be incredibly lazy and horrible and still become a mentor, and that's not really helping anyone.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

Well, him obviously.

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And I have no desire to be a mentor. I like helping people, but I can do that without a crown by my name.

I've said it a few times.
They need to look at The Everquest & Everquest 2 Guide program.

The players who become Guides, have to submit an application, a GM reviews it & checks on the Player's behavior (Reports, Violations, etc) content completed, and knowledge on the game.
Then they approve or disapprove the applicant.

This would dramatically ween out the bad Mentors from the good Mentors & ensure a positive experience for newbies.

Yeah it is amazing what I used to be able to do in a 15 year old game. See the last time someone was on in the guild (LS / FC <cough>), put private comments, public comments, bring up the guild list inside a dungeon, etc. It's weird 15+ years later, we've become more restrictive in our "management and house cleaning" duties for our LS / FCs despite all these advantages in server hardware and software.

I like the EQ Guide program suggestion. Yeah, if Mentor was tied to ANYTHING (even if it ONLY tied to a simple crown next to your name, and no other bonus whatsoever, so special roulette, etc.) then SE would be flooded with applications and it would take a while to get through them. But, perhaps they could have started taking apps months before the released the mentor system to get ready? I dunno.

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Originally Posted by Mykll

Yeah it is amazing what I used to be able to do in a 15 year old game. See the last time someone was on in the guild (LS / FC <cough>), put private comments, public comments, bring up the guild list inside a dungeon, etc. It's weird 15+ years later, we've become more restrictive in our "management and house cleaning" duties for our LS / FCs despite all these advantages in server hardware and software.

I like the EQ Guide program suggestion. Yeah, if Mentor was tied to ANYTHING (even if it ONLY tied to a simple crown next to your name, and no other bonus whatsoever, so special roulette, etc.) then SE would be flooded with applications and it would take a while to get through them. But, perhaps they could have started taking apps months before the released the mentor system to get ready? I dunno.

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Nuff said. SE can still remedy the situation.

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Originally Posted by Auxilio

SE now needs to look into how to filter this pool further.. probably add some sort of way for the newbies to thank the mentors (something like a commendation).. and mentors that do not get any of these after a set time will not be able to don that crown. Just throwing random idea out :P in case SE sees this

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This is a solid idea. Have a pop-up appear on the newbie's screen at the end of the dungeon where they can choose to say whether the mentor was helpful or not helpful. Mentors who keep getting "not helpful" votes automatically lose mentor status.

I'm sure S-E will make adjustments to the system before long. Other things also need to get fixed, like the fact that new players can't freely leave the Novice Chat. Many new players don't want to be forced into a busy chatroom by strangers.

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Originally Posted by Takfloyd

This is a solid idea. Have a pop-up appear on the newbie's screen at the end of the dungeon where they can choose to say whether the mentor was helpful or not helpful. Mentors who keep getting "not helpful" votes automatically lose mentor status.

I'm sure S-E will make adjustments to the system before long. Other things also need to get fixed, like the fact that new players can't freely leave the Novice Chat. Many new players don't want to be forced into a busy chatroom by strangers.

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"Pass on the gear or get a negative mentor report."

When putting forth an idea, thinking of the ways it can be abused is a good idea.

Also selling positive and padding via alts.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

"Pass on the gear or get a negative mentor report."

When putting forth an idea, thinking of the ways it can be abused is a good idea.

Also selling positive and padding via alts.

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How many new players does this apply to? It's not in any way even remotely comparable to the number of mentors currently abusing the system. 99.99% of new players would never think to do something like that, and those few who do can be easily reported.

As for buying mentor commendations or using alts, no one would go to such lengths when they can just be a good mentor and not have to worry about it. You may as well say that regular commendations shouldn't exist because they can also be sold.

In short, I think you're the one who didn't think it through enough.

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Originally Posted by Takfloyd

How many new players does this apply to? It's not in any way even remotely comparable to the number of mentors currently abusing the system. 99.99% of new players would never think to do something like that, and those few who do can be easily reported.

As for buying mentor commendations or using alts, no one would go to such lengths when they can just be a good mentor and not have to worry about it. You may as well say that regular commendations shouldn't exist because they can also be sold.

In short, I think you're the one who didn't think it through enough.

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Regular commendations, or lack of recieving them, do not remove you from a program you have already met the criteria to join.

Also commendations are traded all the time. There is win trading and selling all over this game. TT for one, trial and raid sells for another. You are talking about creating a system to kick people out of a program within the game, that would be extremely easy to abuse, so it would happen. As far as the lenghts people would go to, look at how salty not meeting the simple requirements has made you, if you feel that strongly about being a mentor, others would to.

I've seen some jerk mentors in roulettes. If you don't want to mentor 24/7, don't wear the crown 24/7.

I think it's good to have these requirements. People who have played all roles to 60 are more likely to have an understanding of how the roles work.

The only problem I have with it is that I was able to become a mentor without having a tank, since I craft. It's just odd to me that crafting mentors are considered the exact same as battle mentors.

Wait, you people are bringing Qualifications and comparing this to real life?

Who would the guy hire, the guy with 3 qualifications or 6? 3 of course.

The boss can get away hiring the guy to do the same job for half the way! Ever heard of being "overqualified" for a Job? Happens a LOT!

I do really feel that the Mentor system is not working as intended and is more of a badge of honor rather that indicating to new players that these players are willing to help you.

it might just be me but i swear the people who have the mentor icon showing are more likely to ragequit either right off the bat or after 1 wipe from hard content if there are new people there

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Originally Posted by Ageofwar

it might just be me but i swear the people who have the mentor icon showing are more likely to ragequit either right off the bat or after 1 wipe from hard content if there are new people there

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Mentors are people, just like non-mentors. Given the low barriers for mentorship, there's not really anything that would select for a positive/negative personality.

If we're honest here there is no player metric in the game that could be used to truly determine who would make a good mentor. The requirements we have at present are just a gauge of time played and rudimentary experience in each group role. The only feasible solution I can see is some mentor equivalent of commendations that allow sprouts to rate good mentors; maybe even give those with higher commend counts priority access to the channel. Of course even THAT could be abused if not implemented with some foresight.

I still think we would do well to give it a little more time to see how the mentor chat settles down on each server though.

THe mentor system is a little bit tricky.
At the moment it caters more to the people who want it for the achievment and not because they want to help.
I think the Mentor system in FFXI was ok. Everyone and his mother was able to become a Mentor, but only the people who really wanted to help became Mentors because there was nothing to achieve from beeing a mentor other than beeing helpful to other players.
I think the mentor system as it is now is a little bit flawed, but not so terrible. But I hope they revisit the idea of giving out Achievmentrewards.
Mentoring should be all about helping others and not collecting shiney new Glamours and titels for yourself.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

The only feasible solution I can see is some mentor equivalent of commendations that allow sprouts to rate good mentors; maybe even give those with higher commend counts priority access to the channel.

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What do newbies know about good mentoring? They only thing they can rate is "niceness", which isn't the sole factor in determining a good mentor.

I absolutely agree with the OP.

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Originally Posted by Takfloyd

Namely, the people who speedrun dungeons without a word all day without ever caring about newcomers. The kind of people who sour the experience for said newcomers by not letting them watch cutscenes, not explaining anything, and complaining when they can't keep up. The commendations requirement means nothing since these people rake in commendations from other speedrunners just for being fast and efficient.

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The requirements are a joke, but not for the reasons you listed. They are a joke because they only require you to be good at grinding. You don't have to know anything about this game or your class to be good at grinding. There are tons of level 60s who have no idea how to play and those are the people who can be mentors, just for being carried through every dungeon.

Get rid of the crown. Everyone who only wanted mentor status for the gold crown without actually helping will immediately jump off the ship. It'll probably de-clog the mentor channels too.

And I say this as a mentor myself.

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

What do newbies know about good mentoring? They only thing they can rate is "niceness", which isn't the sole factor in determining a good mentor.

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You mean to say a newbie won't be able to tell if they've had questions answered, problems solved and advice given? You seem to be under the impression that most newbies are brain dead...

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Get rid of the crown. Everyone who only wanted mentor status for the gold crown without actually helping will immediately jump off the ship. It'll probably de-clog the mentor channels too.

And I say this as a mentor myself.

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Or make it something not as appealing as a crown. In a game where people will grind stupid amounts for titles that iust clutter up a screen, giving them the option of a crown was a little short sighted.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

Tbh, it seems every other person on Jenova has the crown. At this point I don't even see much point in getting it. It will be rare enough to get into the chat channel, and then you have such a huge ratio of mentors to leafs, that it's just clutter. Probably more efficent to help outside the channel.

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Yeah I'm on the same server and holy crap, they're everywhere.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

You mean to say a newbie won't be able to tell if they've had questions answered, problems solved and advice given? You seem to be under the impression that most newbies are brain dead...

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I think they're referring to newbies being given very inaccurate or bad advice in a nice/polite way. I've ran with DPS who chose not to use any DoT's "because they're a potency loss" and had some of their own math to back it up. A mentor like that can give very bad advice that sounds correct to a newbie.

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Originally Posted by Shug

I've seen some jerk mentors in roulettes. If you don't want to mentor 24/7, don't wear the crown 24/7.

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You can't turn it off when you want. The only way to get rid of it is to talk to the Smith and leave the system, after which you must wait 30 days to rejoin.

I really think the people who are enabling Mentoring and just "wearing the crown" will tire of it and turn it off; just give it time, people. Once the sparkly newness of it has worn off, you'll have more players with good intentions of helping others as the remainder.

Honestly I think the mentor system wasn't needed at all and it may be doing more damage than good. What it tried to achieve is already covered by free companies. Think about it. Formerly, what did the new players get to see in their early hours? When other people approached them in cities or on the field it was usually to help them with something and/or to offer them a FC invite. The kind of FC who invites random new players has at least some helpful people, including the recruiters. The people and FCs who don't care about teaching and who are rude or elitists won't bother with them, won't invite them and they'll usually be busy raiding or in late game areas or in their housing wards so they're invisible to new players. And if new players get invited to a FC that makes them feel uncomfortable they can leave at any moment and seek for a nice environment with people who are willing to help.

But now with the mentor system and the misuse of the novice network all that toxicity that was invisible to them gets slapped on their faces early in the game and may give a terrible impression about the game itself and its community.

The mentor system is not at all meant as a source to teach new players end game rotations per say but to help them in general with tips and advice and so forth.
Like newcomers to tanking for example, like when to use flash, shield lob, etc..
The requirements to become Mentor is too easy, when i first heard about it i thought a player needed 1 of each class and with experience, this however is not the case.
Granted i have almost every class at 60, but i do feel they should of had higher guidelines in order to join.
From what i have heard the network itself people are using as a talk trash sort of deal. Myself i had been a mentor for almost a full week and never once was able to get on, always got the network is full.... :/

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Originally Posted by Telanne

I think they're referring to newbies being given very inaccurate or bad advice in a nice/polite way. I've ran with DPS who chose not to use any DoT's "because they're a potency loss" and had some of their own math to back it up. A mentor like that can give very bad advice that sounds correct to a newbie.

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Well this is something you'll get either way. At least a system like this would ensure you only have people that are TRYING to help as opposed to the current horde of people that have no intention of actually helping anyone. The point is we need a system that prioritizes helpful players in the channel. I'd rather a couple of players giving poor advice slipped through the net than have all the sprouts abandon the channel because it's entirely unhelpful to them.

What if you were required to clear certain tiers of the SSS dps checks before becoming a mentor?