Tears for Ninja 1 step back to 2.4 again in 3.2...

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02-23-2016, 05:11 AM
MiniTyra

Yes. And as I explained, if you read the math, in 3.2, NIN will greatly overshadow MNK in all scenarios because of the multiplicative nature of Trick Attack.

The highest A4S MNK DPS on FFlogs, with MNK/DRG/No-AST, is 1506

The highest A4S NIN DPS on FFlogs, with NIN/DRG/No-AST, is 1396

110 Solo DPS difference.

1396 + 116 = 1512

That falls perfectly inline with my mathematically calculated 116 DPS difference, with a Ninja (As you add the Raid DPS to the Ninja solo DPS). They're perfectly balanced right now, so no, a Monk does not do more DPS than a Ninja accounting for Team Bonus DPS. They do roughly the same. The math is there.

Let's now do this percentage-wise.

1506/1396 = 1.078796561604585, or a 7.879% difference in solo DPS.

Let's scale up the Monk to expected 2000 DPS.

2000 / 1.078796561604585 = 1853.917662682602 Ninja DPS, solo

1853.917662682602 + 336.6694 (my TA contribution) = 2190.587062682602

2190.587062682602 - 2000 = oh look, a Ninja is now 190DPS stronger than a Monk accounting for Raid DPS...

Do I need to do more math?

Source? This is from Dervy.
02-23-2016, 05:13 AM
Krindor

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrashofZenki

Snip

NIN is going to keep their position as a support/dps and will still be wanted over MNK for DRK/WAR setups simply due to the utility it brings. Without dragon kick the only other utility MNK has is mantra. If you don't understand the usefulness of NIN you probably haven't understood how hardcore content works as that is what the developers balances the classes around. Also all you see is direct dps numbers, other things that NIN provide is goad and shadewalker which both increase the DPS of the class used on. For example with shadewalker a tank can open in DPS stance without problem giving them a higher damaging opener, goad will increase the DPS of the person it is used on in fights where TP is a problem for example A2S, as a MNK a NIN goading me throughout the fight is going to increase the DPS by close to 100.
02-23-2016, 05:16 AM
Ephier

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrashofZenki

Im simply stating MNK shouldnt get a DPS boost in the first place as its already higher in DPS than NIN accounting in team bonus DPS you add from Trick Attack.

And I am simply informing you that MNK is not stronger than NIN personal DPS + Trick attack.
02-23-2016, 05:48 AM
CrashofZenki

Quote:

In 3.2, I've already calculated that the average DPS of a MNK/DRG/NIN will approximately be 2000 on a single target dummy; an approximate 500DPS increase for all DPS. Let's, for arguments sake, slap on 300 DPS per DPS. That brings the approximate raid DPS of our DPS jobs, to 8200.

8200*1.016667 = 8336.6694, or a 336.6694 DPS increase.

Just adding 1200 raid DPS, bolsters the Ninjas Trick Attack effectiveness by 116.669/336.6694 = 0.3465, or 34.65%, or, 336.6694 - 116.669 = 220.0004 additional raid DPS.

Are you still going to try whine and complain, that a Monk receiving, what? a 3 PPS increase, or approximately 60DPS more in 3.2, is unjust?

And guess what, as long as the Ninjas Trick Attack remains 10%, the Monk will always keep getting buffed.

Now, let's not even begin talking about how broken Dragoons raid-contribution will be in 3.2.

Youre wrong on the calculation. Your TA contribution is not 200 DPS increased in 3.2.

336.6694 is the wrong calculation. as u stated the DPS was 8200 not 8000 so 336.6694 - 200 = 136.6694

Meaning 10 DPS short. Learn to Math
02-23-2016, 05:58 AM
MiniTyra

Quote me where I said 8000.
02-23-2016, 06:09 AM
CrashofZenki

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiniTyra

Quote me where I said 8000.

Look at ur numbers...
8200*1.016667 = 8336.6694

It is not a 336.6694 increase. its a 136.6694. So In ur calculation you pulled wrong numbers.

You dont see it?

So...

"2000 / 1.078796561604585 = 1853.917662682602 Ninja DPS, solo

1853.917662682602 + 136.6694 (my TA contribution) = 1990.587062682602

2190.587062682602 - 2000 = oh look, a Monk is now 10 DPS stronger than a Ninja accounting for Raid DPS..."

See what I did there? Corrected you.
02-23-2016, 06:12 AM
Cheriyn

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiniTyra

You know why they did this right? Trick Attack is a multiplicative ability. It scales the entire raids damage by approximately 1.016667 over the course of Infinity. 1+0.1*10/60.

In 3.0, the rough "raid DPS" of a group is 7000. So, 7000*1.016667 = 7116.669, so 116.669 DPS increase with a Ninja, approximately.

In 3.2, I've already calculated that the average DPS of a MNK/DRG/NIN will approximately be 2000 on a single target dummy; an approximate 500DPS increase for all DPS. Let's, for arguments sake, slap on 300 DPS per DPS. That brings the approximate raid DPS of our DPS jobs, to 8200.

8200*1.016667 = 8336.6694, or a 336.6694 DPS increase.

Just adding 1200 raid DPS, bolsters the Ninjas Trick Attack effectiveness by 116.669/336.6694 = 0.3465, or 34.65%, or, 336.6694 - 116.669 = 220.0004 additional raid DPS.

Are you still going to try whine and complain, that a Monk receiving, what? a 3 PPS increase, or approximately 60DPS more in 3.2, is unjust?

And guess what, as long as the Ninjas Trick Attack remains 10%, the Monk will always keep getting buffed.

Now, let's not even begin talking about how broken Dragoons raid-contribution will be in 3.2.

umm... >.<

8336.6694-8200 is 136.6694, not 336.6694 ><;;

and 116.669/336.6694=0.3465 is incorrect formula, it's supposed to be other way around @@;

it should be 136.6694/116.669, which is ~1.17 or 17% effectiveness increase, or 136.6694-116.669=20.0004 more raid dps if we consider trick attack effect for 8200 compared to 7000 ><;

8200-7000=1200
1200*1.6667%=20.0004

but I think multiplying 1.6667% with raid dps for trick attack increase is incorrect also because trick attack effect for ninja player is normal, but trick attack effect for other party members is bonus @@;;

so if we want to find out how much of an advantage that trick attack gives to the party, it should always be (1.6667%*raiddps)-(1.6667%*ninjadps) because trick attack effect is part of baseline for ninja, but not part of baseline for any other player in the party >.<;

if we consider 7000 raid dps, people usually say trick attack will gave advantage of 116.669, but this calculation makes trick attack effect apply 2 times for the ninja so it is incorrect @@;
if ninja dps is 1250, that means 1250*1.667% is subtracted from 7000*1.667%, so it becomes 116.669-20.8375=95.83525
so this means that with 7000 raid dps and 1250 ninja dps, trick attack gave an advantage of ~96 dps, not ~117 @@;;;
02-23-2016, 06:16 AM
MiniTyra

And where are you getting 136.66694 from?

Why are you scaling the numbers back down from 8200 to 8000?

Why are you removing 200? Where did that 200 come from? Why are you doing 336 - 200?
02-23-2016, 06:18 AM
CrashofZenki

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiniTyra

And where are you getting 136.66694 from?

Why are you scaling the numbers back down from 8200 to 8000?

Why are you removing 200? Where did that 200 come from? Why are you doing 336 - 200?

Because you pulled an extra 200 DPS from thin air.

Ill explain.

8200*1.016667 = 8336.6694 - 8200(Because thats the DPS from Total DPS from Raid in parse.) = 136.66694
02-23-2016, 06:19 AM
Sleigh

This 1.016 (IE 1.6%) people are throwing away is pretty shortsighted. It's definitely worth more than that ...

- 1.6% assumes minimum uptime/downtime of TA. It assumes the fight ends right before a TA.
- Classes do 1.5X - 2X their sustained in their opener. Not only the opener to the fight, but in some cases, the opener is repeated due to phase shifts. This "1.6%" is applying during higher-than-normal-DPS portions of the fight constantly.
- All sustained DPS aside, if say a MNK and a NIN were to contribute the same DPS somehow, the group with Trick Attack will have an advantage during the occasional DPS check. Hand of Pain and leg 3 (and if you're really going for it, leg 1 skip quarantine), the difference between having a MNK or having a NIN is night and day, it feels almost cheap when switching to NIN.

I notice closer to 3% boosts on almost the entire party with a NIN in the group. Trick Attack is ridiculous.
02-23-2016, 06:38 AM
MiniTyra

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrashofZenki

Look at ur numbers...
8200*1.016667 = 8336.6694

It is not a 336.6694 increase. its a 136.6694. So In ur calculation you pulled wrong numbers.

You dont see it?

So...

"2000 / 1.078796561604585 = 1853.917662682602 Ninja DPS, solo

1853.917662682602 + 136.6694 (my TA contribution) = 1990.587062682602

2190.587062682602 - 2000 = oh look, a Monk is now 10 DPS stronger than a Ninja accounting for Raid DPS..."

See what I did there? Corrected you.

Okay, now I see what I did wrong, after going through my numbers carefully once more.

That's only a 10DPS difference, where we're simply taking values from an actual raid-encounter, from fflogs.

If we look at A1S, the numbers shift a bit more, doing the same values.

Monk: 1683
Ninja: 1583

I will note, that the Monk parse did use a Ninja. The highest parse of a Monk without a Ninja and AST is 1440, which is 100 lower than the Ninja without the same, on FFlogs. We could adjust for the Ninja by doing 1683 / 1.016667... But you can do that, as I aren't good at math.

That's why using fflogs numbers as examples, are "funky".

1683 / 1583 = 1.063171193935565 difference

2000 / 1.063171193935565 = 1881.164587046941

1881.164587046941 + 136.6694 = 2017.833987046941 - 2000

Oh look, a Ninja is mysteriously 17.8 DPS more, this time using your exact methodology.

Remember, we're eye-balling numbers completely here and taking values from FFlogs, where everthing is pretty much Crit RNG. The boost from Trick Attack on Raid Contribution is getting stronger each patch; That is what I was trying to demonstrate here. Maybe I need to get some sleep, dealing with numbers all day preparing for tomorrow is getting to my head,

That's why the Monk is getting the boost, for future proofing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheriyn

if we consider 7000 raid dps, people usually say trick attack will gave advantage of 116.669, but this calculation makes trick attack effect apply 2 times for the ninja so it is incorrect @@;
if ninja dps is 1250, that means 1250*1.667% is subtracted from 7000*1.667%, so it becomes 116.669-20.8375=95.83525
so this means that with 7000 raid dps and 1250 ninja dps, trick attack gave an advantage of ~96 dps, not ~117 @@;;;

Okay then, so let's use 1853.917662682602 as the Ninja's DPS at 8200 DPS.

1853.917662682602 / 1.016667 = 1823.5249719747

1853.917662682602 - 1823.5249719747 = 30.392690707902

8200 * 1.016667 = 8336.6694 - 8200 = 136.6694

136.6694 - 30.39 = 106.2794 - 96 = 10.2792.

A Ninjas Trick Attack, therefore with your math, is worth 10.2792 DPS more than it was previously, if we're scaling damage up from A4S.

That's what I was trying to get at.

Yeah, I get it, I forgot to minus the 200, big deal. It still does not change the fact, TA's value is increasing more and more each ilvl jump we receive.

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