Tanks using their enmity combo while being OT

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

A bad war puts up Storm's Path, it lowers dps by a significant margin. A good war OT uses Butcher's block to keep up high DPS.

Storm's Path is always an objective DPS loss.

Be a good tank.

Don't use Path.

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A WAR using Butcher's Block for DPS= good WAR

A WAR that uses Storm's Path to lower boss damage= bad WAR

Got it. Anything else you want to add?

I will say that if a DRK is tanking outside of Grit after their opener and avoiding their enmity combo (basically playing THEIR role optimally) a WAR hitting BB every other combo can sometimes need babysitting. This isn't anyone's fault though, its a design problem SE ought to fix. The two roles clash with eachother by using their optimal DPS rotations in a scenario where the DRK is MT and WAR is OT.

That being said, a WAR that keeps at least partial Path uptime... I think its a little harsh to say they're BAD.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Be a good tank.

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This from the guy that has been telling the forums he's going to ragequit tanking if DPS takes a hit in patch 3.2.

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Originally Posted by WolfKid

A WAR using Butcher's Block for DPS= good WAR

A WAR that uses Storm's Path to lower boss damage= bad WAR

Got it. Anything else you want to add?

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Not particularly! Unless the debuff from Path is mandatory to survive a raid buster, which only ever is necessary during progression to cheese mechanics. It's a pointless ability to use in any situation where your or the raid's survivability isn't threatened.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

Even with all of that, as PLD, I never had these issues unless the OT was remaning in tank stance and actively trying to take hate to troll. That or if I did something stupid like hit sprint as soon as I went to pull...

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Its more likely to happen when if the Paladin is trying to MT primarily in Sword Oath or when their is a slight gear gap and the Warrior is trying to OTing something like Void Ark and inattentive enmity creep causes boss spinning. 7 more personal potency per GCD at the cost of generating 150% more enmity isn't really worth it for the potential problems it will cause in my opinion. Especially when -10% damage inflicted by the boss should allow the Healers and MT to DpS more.

A lot of players miss that slight losses in one place can lead to bigger gains elsewhere.

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But even that lower PLD generation should change this month.

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Yes, that is true, but as of right now the OP's complaint is an actual (if only minor) problem. Hopefully it will be fixed without creating others.

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And those full VIT tanks that have trouble with hate will change too.

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The Str/Vit divide does make things worse, but that doesn't change that this is an underlying problem.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Not particularly! Unless the debuff from Path is mandatory to survive a raid buster, which only ever is necessary during progression to cheese mechanics. It's a pointless ability to use in any situation where your or the raid's survivability isn't threatened.

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Even if that 10% less damage would lead to an increase in Healer DpS greater than your own loss in personal DpS?

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Not particularly! Unless the debuff from Path is mandatory to survive a raid buster, which only ever is necessary during progression to cheese mechanics. It's a pointless ability to use in any situation where your or the raid's survivability isn't threatened.

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Storm's Path a useless ability?! I never knew.....

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Its more likely to happen when if the Paladin is trying to MT primarily in Sword Oath or when their is a slight gear gap and the Warrior is trying to OTing something like Void Ark and inattentive enmity creep causes boss spinning. 7 more personal potency per GCD at the cost of generating 150% more enmity isn't really worth it for the potential problems it will cause in my opinion. Especially when -10% damage inflicted by the boss should allow the Healers and MT to DpS more.

A lot of players miss that slight losses in one place can lead to bigger gains elsewhere.


Yes, that is true, but as of right now the OP's complaint is an actual (if only minor) problem. Hopefully it will be fixed without creating others.


The Str/Vit divide does make things worse, but that doesn't change that this is an underlying problem.



Even if that 10% less damage would lead to an increase in Healer DpS greater than your own loss in personal DpS?

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Tbh. If it's DF, just suck it up and throw in another enmity attack or two(not directed at you, at the conversation as a whole), most times you get OTs that will do far less.damage than any loss being discussed here, so be happy they are doing something right. In progression, where those finer points matter, the tanks should be communicating enough that this is a non issue.

Also, bear in mind that the above discussion applies to collaborative tanking scenarios where MT and OT are working together to maximize raid dps. It doesn't really apply to situations in which two tanks are spamming their RoH, BB, or PS combos to determine who is truly more metal.

Just doing some napkin math, the BB combo does about 797 enmity potency per hit and SE does 203 (alternating between the two averages to 500). On DA SE is about 267, Del is 226 and PS is 857. Even when you factor in Grit, DA SE becomes 614 and Del becomes 519 before accounting for the damage reduction modifier. If you're both trying to maximize your respective dps, it can be tight at times, and there are going to be moments when one of you will have to make a compromise.

Enmity is always the tank's responsibility. But even though we sometimes view OT as a form of specialized dps class, it still is a tank, and its actions (even ones used to maximize dps) have inbuilt enmity modifiers that can rival (if not exceed) the enmity of being in tank stance. Accidentally taking enmity as OT is like messing up a tank swap. It's an error, not a sign of exceptional dps.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Even if that 10% less damage would lead to an increase in Healer DpS greater than your own loss in personal DpS?

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A competent healer isn't going to notice a 2000 damage attack hitting for 1800. I have never seen a difference between a tank using storm's path and one not when it comes to damage taken, nor have I ever noticed an appreciable difference as a tank in the amount of damage in taking. If my Storm's Path is causing that Much of a dps increase in a situation where only the MT is being hit, they seriously need to learn how to use cooldowns. At that point it's a DPS increase for me to take over.

What's the big deal about just sticking to storm's eye while dpsing? All I'm hearing here is "You don't tell me what to do, Chile! Amma Grooooooown up, amma do whadda want!/sassyhandflip."

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

A bad war puts up Storm's Path, it lowers dps by a significant margin. A good war OT uses Butcher's block to keep up high DPS.

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A better WAR OT uses consecutive Storm's Eye combos if they're anywhere close to pulling aggro, instead of mindlessly rotating SE->BB, because the 20 potency the WAR loses by dropping from BB to SE is absolutely dwarved by the 60-80 potency that the DRK or PLD MT gains by upgrading from RoH/PS to Del/DA SE/RA.

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Originally Posted by Crater

A better WAR OT uses consecutive Storm's Eye combos if they're anywhere close to pulling aggro, instead of mindlessly rotating SE->BB, because the 20 potency the WAR loses by dropping from BB to SE is absolutely dwarved by the 60-80 potency that the DRK or PLD MT gains by upgrading from RoH/PS to Del/DA SE/RA.

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W-what? Contribute to the raid? Playing like a support class? Are you some kind of c-c-c-communist?!

All joking aside, this thread has become a pretty damning indictment of the DPS IS GOD mentality. The idea of contributing to the group for a minuscule sacrifice in potency has got people hissing "baaaaad," as though to do such a thing would be unthinkable. Tunnel vision.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

A competent healer isn't going to notice a 2000 damage attack hitting for 1800. I have never seen a difference between a tank using storm's path and one not when it comes to damage taken, nor have I ever noticed an appreciable difference as a tank in the amount of damage in taking. If my Storm's Path is causing that Much of a dps increase in a situation where only the MT is being hit, they seriously need to learn how to use cooldowns. At that point it's a DPS increase for me to take over.

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They may not notice the single hits, but the good healers do notice when it takes 5 rather than 4 attacks to knock the tank below half hp as it gives them time to do another attack before healing the MT up.

I rather tanks use enmity combos every so often over pure dps for the sake of not seeing the MT die and the boss heads over to the mage or one of the healers because OT isn't a warrior in the top 3 of the boss' to do list. With that said if OT in pure dps mode with no enmity combos is fighting hate, then MT should let it go and switch to OT. The only time to complain is when said OT is in tank stance the whole time. Remember if the MT dies should it go to the healer/mage/dps roam or to the next tank. But since OT is a warrior its more or less due to it being their better dps rotations. The next question to this would be, how many warriors are present and are any ninjas involved? In theory one warrior could do Path and the other Eye. But ninjas also have a slashing debuff and does it matter if warrior OT and ninja both use their slashing debuff?

I haven't tanked since first Coil back at launch, but I strongly remember having to avoid using Butcher's Block combos at times to avoid ripping hate off the PLD. He had gotten his (myth? been a long time) body piece first while I spent tomes on a Bravura. It only took one moment of ripping hate off of him to cause a wipe and after that I always watched my enmity.

I get the "it's less DPS if I don't" mentality, but let's be honest here. It's a net DPS loss for the group if your pulling hate off the main tank adversely affects the group, and most of the time it will. But that's just normal with this game compared to XI: 14's spam all your abilities as fast as you can and if something goes wrong it's the fault of the guy not giving 110% vs. 11's feeling out enmity levels and holding back on your DPS so you don't rip hate off the tank. I get that you shouldn't have to in 14 if everything is played optimally, but if everything were going optimally you'd never ever wipe in this game either. I live in (and try to adjust my play to) the practical world however.

Nothing quite like getting that level 50 trial on my 204 PLD and tearing off the WAR or DRK MT while I'm in Sword Oath and Str gear when I pop Fight or Flight, because my Rage of Halone combo is literally the only thing I have to work with.

Though I suppose being a good player means knowing not only how to hit the throttle, but when not to.

So to that end, I suppose I could open with a few Riot Blade combos instead, just to let the MT get a hate lead.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

A bad war puts up Storm's Path, it lowers dps by a significant margin. A good war OT uses Butcher's block to keep up high DPS.

Storm's Path is always an objective DPS loss.

Be a good tank.

Don't use Path.

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You litteraly said "ignoring everything about group synergy is being a good tank".

Everytime a MT (DRK/PLD) have to use an enmity combo to keep up with the OT WAR's Butcher's block, the group loses overall potency.
Even if you use Storm's Path instead of BB, if it allow the MT to use a single DPS rotation instead of an enmity one, the whole group's potency will increase.


... But who cares, right? Be a good Tank, yay.

*slides in*

Path is situational - in any situation where you Path'd, you could've Eye'd or Block'd. Path doesn't provide enough healer GCDs generally for it to be worth keeping up consistently at the damage loss you take on top of the fact that said extra healer GCDs can miss. Path, however, is good for AOEs, tank busters, etc.

Usually people think that it's either Eye -> BB or Eye -> Path, however there is another path you can take called Eye -> Eye - which is only a 20 potency loss. So if you don't need Path and you fear you're creeping too much on the aggro ladder, just Eye -> Eye.

*slides out*

i have a bit trouble with warriors too. i understand why they use the aggro combo and yes they should use it for more damage. but i just started tanking. so i am a fresh dark knight and i find it a bit tricky to not run out of mana while keeping the aggro when there is a war ot ^^;

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Originally Posted by Tint

i have a bit trouble with warriors too. i understand why they use the aggro combo and yes they should use it for more damage. but i just started tanking. so i am a fresh dark knight and i find it a bit tricky to not run out of mana while keeping the aggro when there is a war ot ^^;

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Use shadow skin, turn grit off, activate blood weapon. No mo mana problems.

I think that they were referring to MP issues while tight for enmity. Which is reasonable; the more PS combos you're forced into, the less MP you have at your disposal because you lose SS. Turning off Grit is only an option if you have a reasonable lead. This becomes less of an issue with better gear, however.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

You litteraly said "ignoring everything about group synergy is being a good tank".

Everytime a MT (DRK/PLD) have to use an enmity combo to keep up with the OT WAR's Butcher's block, the group loses overall potency.
Even if you use Storm's Path instead of BB, if it allow the MT to use a single DPS rotation instead of an enmity one, the whole group's potency will increase.


... But who cares, right? Be a good Tank, yay.

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It might be a good idea to read more then 2 words of what I've said in this thread. I've already pointed out precisely when it's acceptable to Storm's Path.

Course, then you might actually have to up your comprehension abilities to understand.

Things have probably changed quite a bit since I was a WAR main pre-Heavensward, but I remember more than a few instances where failing to put up SP in time during early progression guaranteed that your lowest HP dps died to Megaflare. I understand that it's a 7 potency loss/GCD to SE/SP instead of a 3 potency loss/GCD for SE/SE when you're catching up on aggro, but when you have one of the most powerful raid wide damage mitigation abilities in the game, sometimes you just take the dps loss.

Hell, if you don't want SP, I'll take it back off you, thank you very much.

Another advantage of SE -> SE is that you can easily convert it to SE -> SP. IE:

SE -> SE -> SP -> SE

instead of:

SE -> BB -> SE -> SP

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Originally Posted by Lyth

snip.

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As I have said many, many, many times before, early progression is the only situation where storm's path is actually useful, relegating it to less than 1% of available content at any time. Any other time, it's a band aid solution to cover up for a bad df main tank. It's about as useful as Machinist's Dismantle or Rend Mind, except even less useful cause the machinist doesn't sacrifice DPS to use it.

ETA: If I have to throw up Storm's Path at any time other than Early progression, and there's no raid buster that needs the 10% mitigation coming within those 20 seconds, it is most definitely NOT intended as a compliment either to the main tank, or to the healers that are in charge of healing that tank. I'm just covering up for either a sloppy tank, or a sloppy healer.

Ehh, SP's strength isn't in mitigating tankbusters. Damage reduction isn't additive, and you probably aren't going to save a tank who missed a cooldown with it. It's more about mitigating raid-wide damage.

Also, anticipating for and compensating for mistakes is what tanks and healers do. As a tank or healer, if you hold off on an intervention that could have prevented a death in order to push more personal dps, then you have as much to learn about your role as they do about theirs. We are support classes first. We facilitate raid dps.

I'm no number cruncher so maybe 10% extra mitigation isn't worth a lot, but if Dark Nights Shadow skin didn't have a trait to bring it in line with Gladiators Rampart, I definitely be crying for a buff for DRK.

(I got my numbers from the wiki, don't know if they're up to date or not)

im pretty sure paladins are glad to change rage of halone effect with storm path effect.

storm path helps a lot in raid mitigation in turns like as1 and as3 with all those raids aoes help to healers to keep the party up to the cost of 10 of potency? is a good deal for me.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

ETA: If I have to throw up SP at any time...and there's no raid buster that needs the 10% mitigation coming within those 20 seconds, it is most definitely NOT intended as a compliment either to the main tank, or to the healers that are in charge of healing that tank. I'm just covering up for either a sloppy tank, or a sloppy healer.

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I've been reading through this thread... and it seems you're missing the point. Nobody is saying that storms path is required for survival. The point is, if you are OT, and using BB is causing the MT to have to use RoH to keep hate (instead of Royal Authority), then while BB is better for your own personal DPS, it is actually a net loss for the group.

Butchers block + Rage of Halone = LESS OVERALL DPS than Royal Authority + Storms path

I believe you could also use.. is it storms eye? Instead of path. It's still better for the group than BB all the time. There is no BB in team.

If the mt can't hold hate over the ot war using butchers block, then perhaps the war shouldn't be the ot in that situation, no?

Or the WAR can forego a tiny amount of personal DPS in exchange for better raid DPS by letting the MT stance-dance and use their damage combos instead of their enmity combos.

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Originally Posted by AI_wass

Or the WAR can forego a tiny amount of personal DPS in exchange for better raid DPS by letting the MT stance-dance and use their damage combos instead of their enmity combos.

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Good mts can do this anyway. If you start your pull in tank stance and are good enough at your job to keep the dps difference between you and your ot than this isn't an issue.

Butcher's Block deals 5.5x its damage in enmity. That's the equivalent of a 1,540 potency attack. In comparison, Fell Cleave is 500, Dart Arts>Soul Eater is 400, and Royal Authority is 340.

A DRK or PLD MT /cannot/ drop stance and still maintain aggro against Butcher's Block combo spam, while dealing optimal damage on top of that. The math just doesn't work out that way.

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Originally Posted by lawlHT

Good mts can do this anyway. If you start your pull in tank stance and are good enough at your job to keep the dps difference between you and your ot than this isn't an issue.

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It's not a matter of being "good enough" to hold hate. Nobody is sitting here going "Well gee golly, it's just impossible for me to keep hate over a Warrior in Deliverance using Butcher's Block and I don't know how to even do that!" Anybody with a pulse, a brain, and some fingers (and some of the more talented people who lack those things) can hold hate.

But to do that as a Paladin or Dark Knight requires the use of extra Rage of Halone/Power Slash combos, that are not required to hold hate over Monks, White Mages, Astrologians, or Warriors who are being more mindful of their threat. Rage of Halone and Power Slash are a Paladin and Dark Knight's weakest combos - every time one gets used, they are doing less damage than they would be if they were able to use a Royal Authority, Delirium, or (DA) Souleater combo.

The damage that a Paladin or Dark Knight loses from having to use Rage of Halone instead of Royal Authority, or Power Slash instead of Delirium/Souleater, is significantly greater than the damage that a Warrior loses from using an extra Storm's Eye combo instead of a Butcher's Block. No amount of "being a good MT" is going to change that simple mathematical fact.

It does not make sense for a Warrior to force a Dark Knight or a Paladin to forego 60-80 potency, so that the Warrior can gain 20 potency. Not even if the PLD/DRK is in their tank stance. Not even if the Warrior has Berserk up. Butcher's Block as an OT is only ever appropriate when it is not going to force the PLD/DRK to use an enmity combo in a place where they wouldn't otherwise be using one.

So basically throttle back their own dps so that the less capable tank can tank. The sheer number of ogcd's and constant buffs from using Dark Arts liberally should more than make up the difference for a dark knight, and Paladin has 3 moves in their standard dps rotation that cause increased enmity. I'm legit not seeing the issue here.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

So basically throttle back their own dps so that the less capable tank can tank. The sheer number of ogcd's and constant buffs from using Dark Arts liberally should more than make up the difference for a dark knight, and Paladin has 3 moves in their standard dps rotation that cause increased enmity. I'm legit not seeing the issue here.

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If you had two skills that shared the same cooldown, and one did 20 potency and the other did 50, with no additional effects, which one would you use?

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Originally Posted by Crater

If you had two skills that shared the same cooldown, and one did 20 potency and the other did 50, with no additional effects, which one would you use?

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That's irrelevant, none of a pld's dps rotation includes enmity gen moves that share a cool down.

ETA: Since you asked, that would depend on what the additional effect of the former is, the current state of the raid, and whether there's any actually tangible benefits to using the former than the latter.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

This. If they are in deliverance and ripping hate from you doing this combo, either you are doing it wrong, or their gear is far better than yours and they should be MT in the first place.

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^This.....

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

That's irrelevant, none of a pld's dps rotation includes enmity gen moves that share a cool down.

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Just answer the question.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

It might be a good idea to read more then 2 words of what I've said in this thread. I've already pointed out precisely when it's acceptable to Storm's Path.

Course, then you might actually have to up your comprehension abilities to understand.

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Except my post had nothing to do about the uses of SP. It was all about potency loss.
In fact, every post I made in this thread was about that. It seems that you should take your own advice for yourself.

Since it seems that you are the one with understanding issues, I'll explain what I said. Again:
I don't care about the uses of Storm's Path utility, it's not the point. All I'm saying is that if you use BB and that forces your MT (DRK or PLD) to do an enmity combo, it'll be a potency loss for the group.

So, when you said "A good war OT uses Butcher's block to keep up high DPS.", I basically answered with "not if it forces a potency loss for your MT".
Come on, it's not that hard to get.

That's already been answered way back in page 1.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

If they are in deliverance and ripping hate from you doing this combo, either you are doing it wrong, or their gear is far better than yours and they should be MT in the first place.

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It's a dps loss for the under geared tank to be MTing anyway.