Randomized Dungeons :)

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Originally Posted by Delmontyb

Imagine running a dungeon to find a version of Titan, I think if they did something like that, they could update the content to the current level cap, and give them a reason to update older content and bosses. I just wouldn't know what the lore behind it would be. ;)

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They could just make the beastmen tribe area the dungeon, honestly.

1.0 dungeons had some random elements at times.

They were removed. Players dont like random elements as a whole (despite what you read on the forums) and the Dev's when 2.0 was released were very focused on making the game "accessible" and used the term theme park several times in their description of how they wanted to frame the game. They said this was done to combat the evolving mobile gaming market, which is eating into a large chunk of their playerbase.

The idea is you line up for the ride you want, go through the expected course and get some tickets for a prize at the end. That is the core of this game, and it will not vary from this course unless and until it is is very dire financial straights.

Take it or leave it, the theme park weekly tome grind works for them right now financially and keeps players logging in. This is a safe MMO, they do the tried and true. Being the champions of accessible and relatively easy content that they are, I highly doubt they will release anything with random elements any time soon.

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Originally Posted by m3eansean

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You do realize no one likes this theme park idea right? They love the story, gameplay and immersion. What immersion can you get from walking down hallways we seen before with just different themes and enemies and repeating them over and over with no diversity for some item that would be most likely useless in the next 5 patches? Random dungeons would fix that.

Not to mention, this mode is optional. If people don't have time for it, then do if on your off day. Shouldn't bother you that someone else is doing less grindy content and your not. Its all about options in MMOs.

Also adding, Savage Random Dungeon. Holy crap. : O

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

You do realize no one likes this theme park idea right? They love the story, gameplay and immersion. What immersion can you get from walking down hallways we seen before with just different themes and enemies and repeating them over and over with no diversity for some item that would be most likely useless in the next 5 patches? Random dungeons would fix that.

Not to mention, this mode is optional. If people don't have time for it, then do if on your off day. Shouldn't bother you that someone else is doing less grindy content and your not. Its all about options in MMOs.

Also adding, Savage Random Dungeon. Holy crap. : O

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Exactly. That is the problem with immersion. FFXIV / WOW Dungeons were meant to be amazing the first time you see them, very good and fun the first time you do them. However, after you beat them?

All the color is gone, and the more you do them you realize that ... well honestly.

- Trash is pointless, all it does is make the dungeons longer.
- Monsters have bloated amounts of health, even in Alexander Savage and Raids.
- It all is the same repetitive nonsense after you do it once.

Monsters in dungeons for example (trash) barely hits you for anything, but takes forever to kill. Its all a big grind.



However, if you've ever played Everquest 2 for example in the TSO-(+4 expansions era) you will notice that they fix this by doing several things:

- Trash is as hard, if not harder then the bosses.
- Bosses do not have bloated HP, they are just very hard to kill.
- Trash drops loot/masters (masters allow you to "master" a skill you have.)
- Trash hits VERY hard, but dies very quick. This means you can't/can pull rooms (Depending on the skill of your party, but they are hitting a LOT harder), but it doesn't feel "grindy"

Dungeons were not designed to be cool the first time you go through them. They were designed to be ran 500+ times and still be fun the 501st.



Let us take one of the new dungeons recently designed for Heaven's ward. Sohm AI. I do this dungeon a lot, I've done it 30 times just for a sword for appearance I want. You want to know how fun doing it over and over it? ITS NOT. The monsters have so much health it literally feels like its giving me carpel tunnel and they BARELY hurt me. The trash is POINTLESS and they put walls over everything so we can't skip anything. THIS is also what WoW did.

Everquest HAS no walls, not even for boss rooms.


FFXIV feels like currently its: "Play our Way, or Don't Play." that isn't a good way to make dungeons. The novelty wears off eventually.

So, whilst I can say the dungeons are well designed for story, gameplay, mechanics. They are poorly designed to repetition, and fun. Once you do them once, you never want to do them EVER again. That isn't good.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

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Agree entirely with this.

I don't think it'll help too much since in the end it'll be one long corridor type dungeon, just changing.

If anything, there should be more dungeon similar to Aurum Vale and Dzmael Darkhold

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Originally Posted by myahele

I don't think it'll help too much since in the end it'll be one long corridor type dungeon, just changing.

If anything, there should be more dungeon similar to Aurum Vale and Dzmael Darkhold

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Why not have a dungeon with multiple paths and also random??

http://faqsmedia.ign.com/faqs/image/...98328/wk62.jpg

This game didn't have random dungeons but its an example of how a dungeon should be. You'd know where to go, but how you get there differs. Door to boss is locked so we find a key. Can't get to this key since its surrounded by water so we'l have to drain it somehow. Find a valve to drain the water though its guarded by a big monster. Something of that nature but randomized with plenty of scenarios.

Also if any of you lack imagination, plz don't try to make a bland example just to make a point. ex: "Ugh, it'll just be like what you said but backwards. door is blocked by a sea of water and you have to find the key thats guarded by a monster." No, and if it was like that, I bet it'd still be more entertaining then watching you run Sohm Al 50 more times.

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

Why not have a dungeon with multiple paths and also random??

Image of Greede's Underbelly...

This game didn't have random dungeons but its an example of how a dungeon should be. You'd know where to go, but how you get there differs.

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Yes! This is a great example of the kind of thing that could be done. The passages under Balandor were similarly complex, and had multiple paths. There was one random element - as you described, because the doors were locked differently depending on which quest was being run there, and different keys were available, so each use of the location differed, not to mention the placement of keys in rooms guarded (as you said) that could have been far across the map in an unrelated room, or required the solving of a puzzle to enter the room where the key was guarded.

You could also toss in maps with multiple teleport points and alternate paths, along with respawning enemies; I'm thinking of the Faria map and the Free Monster Quest there.

I don't remember Vellgander getting tired, even though the main levels followed the same template, each was different and difficult in it's own way - along with obtaining keys and operating switches to enable travel to the main room, before moving on up...

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Yes! This is a great example of the kind of thing that could be done. The passages under Balandor were similarly complex, and had multiple paths. There was one random element - as you described, because the doors were locked differently depending on which quest was being run there, and different keys were available, so each use of the location differed, not to mention the placement of keys in rooms guarded (as you said) that could have been far across the map in an unrelated room, or required the solving of a puzzle to enter the room where the key was guarded.

You could also toss in maps with multiple teleport points and alternate paths, along with respawning enemies; I'm thinking of the Faria map and the Free Monster Quest there.

I don't remember Vellgander getting tired, even though the main levels followed the same template, each was different and difficult in it's own way - along with obtaining keys and operating switches to enable travel to the main room, before moving on up...

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The issue with that is the same one that was in SWTOR. People will always run the "path" of least resistance if its not random and they have control. There will always be patterns, thus it is no longer random anymore.

It has to be true random. Otherwise people will just pick the easiest path.

SWTOR made a 3 path system to dungeons, and guess what? I did the same path 1000x. It ended up just being a waste of development time.

You have to make it entirely random and remove all story elements from it. It needs to have a small story that ties it to lore. No cutscenes or anything that can make it too complicated.

Randomized Dungeons CANNOT be part of the story, they are just a side-story of the original dungeons. Simplified but random versions with clips and floors.


Even though it sounds silly. It is much easier to design a completely random dungeon then one with randomized split up paths. The thing is, once you do the former one once you can just redo the textures of it all, and add furniture and everything.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

The issue with that is the same one that was in SWTOR. People will always run the "path" of least resistance if its not random and they have control. There will always be patterns, thus it is no longer random anymore.

It has to be true random. Otherwise people will just pick the easiest path.

SWTOR made a 3 path system to dungeons, and guess what? I did the same path 1000x.

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In the examples I am thinking of, there were several paths that had do either be done sequentially or in parallel if your group was strong enough. Also, the placement of keys need not be the same every time, they simply need to be accessible within the dungeon regardless of the paths taken. The Underbelly of Greed was actually 3 complete levels and keys/switches for one level could be found on another, there was more than one way to get between floors and even switch paths. The point wasn't so much to make it random as it was to give players more choice on the paths that they take and the order in which they do things.

I'm not sure that it has to be completely random, but it does need to change a little to create variety. Unlike the dungeons and encounters in FFXIV which are quite linear and highly scripted, the encounters in maps such as the one Kurogaea posted could be tackled in whatever order the players chose. That in itself would be an improvement over what we already have.

One of the quests in the Underbelly started you in two teams at opposite ends of the dungeon, each team had to unlock things to reach the final chamber. If one team lacked the strength, the other could eventually cross paths and help out. Also, there were optional goals to allow a second boss fight if you cleared certain enemies before the final chamber was reached. optional or bonus elements that you can enable by working for a 'full' clear instead of a speed run, multiple paths with puzzles, switches and keys which also include some changeable elements. It doesn't have to be 100% RNG to be good.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

In the examples I am thinking of, there were several paths that had do either be done sequentially or in parallel if your group was strong enough. Also, the placement of keys need not be the same every time, they simply need to be accessible within the dungeon regardless of the paths taken. The Underbelly of Greed was actually 3 complete levels and keys/switches for one level could be found on another, there was more than one way to get between floors and even switch paths. The point wasn't so much to make it random as it was to give players more choice on the paths that they take and the order in which they do things.

I'm not sure that it has to be completely random, but it does need to change a little to create variety. Unlike the dungeons and encounters in FFXIV which are quite linear and highly scripted, the encounters in maps such as the one Kurogaea posted could be tackled in whatever order the players chose. That in itself would be an improvement over what we already have.

One of the quests in the Underbelly started you in two teams at opposite ends of the dungeon, each team had to unlock things to reach the final chamber. If one team lacked the strength, the other could eventually cross paths and help out. Also, there were optional goals to allow a second boss fight if you cleared certain enemies before the final chamber was reached. optional or bonus elements that you can enable by working for a 'full' clear instead of a speed run, multiple paths with puzzles, switches and keys which also include some changeable elements. It doesn't have to be 100% RNG to be good.

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Well, it sounds like a really good idea. However, whats easier to create? A completely random dungeon or one with set passages and lore attached to it and different keys you have to find?

Remember, this is only one dungeon. If you follow a completely randomized formula I only need to make one dungeon, then I can just put different building blocks and textures in it to appear in different areas and change mob placements. Just like Diablo III does with its rifts.

Rather then make a dungeon, they made a system that "creates dungeons" for them so they don't have to.

Now, i'm not saying your system or idea is bad, or wrong but really.. can you see this community doing a dungeon that is like that, searching for keys? They will always go for the path of least resistance, if the dungeon takes too long they will ignore it.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Well, it sounds like a really good idea. However, whats easier to create? A completely random dungeon or one with set passages and lore attached to it and different keys you have to find?

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Clearly a procedurally generated dungeon using existing tile sets and assets is potentially easier to create, but to ensure that the dungeon generated makes a modicum of sense, it's necessary to apply some level of programming to the procedural generation as well as do some play testing to ensure that what results is playable.

A more complex version of an existing map with gates/doors, keys, puzzles, switches, etc.. can be more planned in execution and possibly requires less programming and testing/balance effort to create. I guess what I am saying is that it depends on the actual content which is easier to implement.

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Remember, this is only one dungeon. If you follow a completely randomized formula I only need to make one dungeon, then I can just put different building blocks and textures in it to appear in different areas and change mob placements. Just like Diablo III does with its rifts.

Rather then make a dungeon, they made a system that "creates dungeons" for them so they don't have to.

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WKC sort of did this with it's own rift space, but the basic layout of spaces within those quests remained largely unchanged, which was a missed opportunity because you have no lavish backgrounds to keep consistent and the ground is the ground is the ground, so you are much more free to randomize things. On the other hand, such consistency and uniformity leads to boring levels and grinds which may in the end counter balance the random layout and enemy.

I just want more dungeons that actually feel like dangerous labyrinths than a linear corridor that's essentially four trash pulls then boss, repeat until done. They don't even have to look outside the series for inspiration. Final Fantasy XII had some of the best dungeon layouts and designs I've seen in an RPG, and while people might whine about the Great Crystal, I enjoyed it because it felt like how a dungeon no one has ventured into should feel like.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Clearly a procedurally generated dungeon using existing tile sets and assets is potentially easier to create, but to ensure that the dungeon generated makes a modicum of sense, it's necessary to apply some level of programming to the procedural generation as well as do some play testing to ensure that what results is playable.

A more complex version of an existing map with gates/doors, keys, puzzles, switches, etc.. can be more planned in execution and possibly requires less programming and testing/balance effort to create. I guess what I am saying is that it depends on the actual content which is easier to implement.



WKC sort of did this with it's own rift space, but the basic layout of spaces within those quests remained largely unchanged, which was a missed opportunity because you have no lavish backgrounds to keep consistent and the ground is the ground is the ground, so you are much more free to randomize things. On the other hand, such consistency and uniformity leads to boring levels and grinds which may in the end counter balance the random layout and enemy.

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Its been done on games that were in the 1990s. Like Daggerfall, it IS complicated, but once you have it down...

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Its been done on games that were in the 1990s. Like Daggerfall, it IS complicated, but once you have it down...

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With respect to those games from the 90's, tile based randomized dungeon crawlers are not even remotely in the same league as FFXIV....
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/...20121211084122
You could get away with tile based maps when having 3D environments you could free roam in was new, but you can't really get away with that now. Hell, the faces on our characters have more textures and polygons than the entire image above.

I agree with the broad idea of more randomized elements to create variety, and even a semi-random dungeon that never quite looks or runs the same each time compared to the last. But I can't accept 90's dungeon crawling as an exponent of procedural generation of content.

Rogue was great in the day, as was Mines of Moria, both games (and 100s of Rogue-like games since) consisted of entirely 'random' maps generated procedurally. Of course neither had a particular story, and neither game engine suited story driven content. The 90's games that use this technique similarly used it for non-story driven content and produced labyrinths of uniform stone walled corridors and square rooms.

I think the technique could be used to generate variation in the content that we face in dungeons, and alter paths, puzzles, etc. But other than doing a dungeon as a tribute to dungeon crawlers of the past, I don't see a completely random, procedurally generated dungeon happening.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Exactly. That is the problem with immersion. FFXIV / WOW Dungeons were meant to be amazing the first time you see them, very good and fun the first time you do them. However, after you beat them?

All the color is gone, and the more you do them you realize that ... well honestly.

- Trash is pointless, all it does is make the dungeons longer.
- Monsters have bloated amounts of health, even in Alexander Savage and Raids.
- It all is the same repetitive nonsense after you do it once.

Monsters in dungeons for example (trash) barely hits you for anything, but takes forever to kill. Its all a big grind.



However, if you've ever played Everquest 2 for example in the TSO-(+4 expansions era) you will notice that they fix this by doing several things:

- Trash is as hard, if not harder then the bosses.
- Bosses do not have bloated HP, they are just very hard to kill.
- Trash drops loot/masters (masters allow you to "master" a skill you have.)
- Trash hits VERY hard, but dies very quick. This means you can't/can pull rooms (Depending on the skill of your party, but they are hitting a LOT harder), but it doesn't feel "grindy"

Dungeons were not designed to be cool the first time you go through them. They were designed to be ran 500+ times and still be fun the 501st.



Let us take one of the new dungeons recently designed for Heaven's ward. Sohm AI. I do this dungeon a lot, I've done it 30 times just for a sword for appearance I want. You want to know how fun doing it over and over it? ITS NOT. The monsters have so much health it literally feels like its giving me carpel tunnel and they BARELY hurt me. The trash is POINTLESS and they put walls over everything so we can't skip anything. THIS is also what WoW did.

Everquest HAS no walls, not even for boss rooms.


FFXIV feels like currently its: "Play our Way, or Don't Play." that isn't a good way to make dungeons. The novelty wears off eventually.

So, whilst I can say the dungeons are well designed for story, gameplay, mechanics. They are poorly designed to repetition, and fun. Once you do them once, you never want to do them EVER again. That isn't good.

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Hmm.... Basically you are comparing different designs but equal values. With a mob has bloated HP or high defense it still means the same amount of time to kill. Also older MMO have heavier gear stat requirements where as FFXIV is about learning mechanics. Not saying one is better than other and agree FFXIV is slipping in appeal as time goes on. I'm not a fan of speed runs myself but SE has made dungeons so easy that the community decided to challenge itself. Trash mobs are boring and SE needs to make them more challenging.

I made a post about a new randomize dungeon design that stays true to FF, but it couldn't be done to current dungeon roulette. People are always looking for the easy win and would rather quit and wait 30mins then try. Look at trial roulette and Steps of Faith, you still see people just drop rather than try so adding random dungeons to expert roulette people would rather quit and wait 30mins for an easier dungeon.

Dungeons need work and more diverse design. I do believe making a new 8-man Dungeon class would help with the dungeon rut. Also adding optional boss fights, tomes/minions/TT cards randomly drop from treasure chest, more area mechanics rather than just boss would improve interest.

I will say Labyrinth of the Ancients was my favorite run the entire game because of it's unique design.

As it's been stated countless times before, SE already has a perfect template for this: Nyzul Isle. Even a Moblin Maze Mongers style dungeon would be a nice change from what we currently get.