IS WAR as hard as it seems?

That's not true for everyone i play war, and i MT in raid exept for A2S,
Because i can switch in delivrance when i MT, and it make a loose of dps to make my PLD mate doing more Rage of Halone if he MT, in A1S we tryed if the PLD take opressor in MT we loose 300 of dps for both tank, when i get opressor in MT, i just take aggro and burst in delivrance, i loose a very few dps, but the pld win 300 dps when OT. So as long i can burst in delivrance on Boss i don't have to OT them if i have a pld mate. the same can happen in A3S, in the first phase you can burst in delivrance when you MT, you can do it in P2 also. (i remember a pick upp asking me why i MT, it should be obvious, but it tell me a lot of player think war have to OT no matter what)
When i agree to say War is the easiest, yeah it's the easiest tank to begin with
But when you know how to tank, any tank is not difficult.
Someone have said the War is the easiest tank to get the full potential of, actualy i watched a lot of Clear video of A3s, A4s, i don't agree, a lot of War get the full potential of the dps output, it's look like many War care a lot about this. I don't see a lot of war when forced to be in defiance, trying to get Inner Beast Timed with the boss cleave, so a lot of war don't have the full potential to be as tanky as possible. Because it's not that easy to doing that.
the dps rotation is not difficult at all, use of self heal too and keep cd for tank burster too, you are good when you can use all these skill with synergy, but it's not the full potential of a war, many war can be better.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

??????????????????? Delirium being reset early literally affects nothing. You apply the DoT when it falls off, you have 1 DoT. What. What?? WHAT?? Honestly. Honestly. Come on.

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2 DoT's, for Drk actually. Salt of the Earth and Scourge. Otherwise yes, though. None of the tanks are particularly difficult.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

I just can not figure out what people are finding difficult about DRK. Is it because you have more buttons to press? Is pressing buttons difficult for some people?

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The slow animations of every swing had put me off from the job. It is hard to explain, but it feels like I'll be too slow to grab threat, etc. And can never be because of buttons lol when you have to press a million buttons on WAR.

War has even fewer buttons to press than paladin though.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

War has even fewer buttons to press than paladin though.

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Except they don't.

WARs use every single skill they have pretty regularly and a lot stay relevant regardless of role.

PLDs don't. Cover is rarely used, Clemency is rarely used, Tempered Will is rarely used, Shield Bash is rarely used, one of their cross-class skills is basically a throw away, and a lot of their skills do nothing when they aren't being hit. PLDs have a very small number of skills you frequently use and a lot of buttons you might press a couple times per raid tier.

DRKs also share the issue of some of their skills being situational and others being useless while not being hit (either at all or by a specific damage type). But, at least DRKs have a larger spread of buttons they need to frequently press.

Oh god no war might have a few extra keys but it's far easier then pld or drk since your not worrying about things like mp management. Once you've learned the rotations it's fairly easy plus you got a kick ass axe instead of a sword and shield. imo best to put your points to str when lvling to 50 before desiding on switching to something like str and vit just make sure you got your provoke and whatever else you think you'll need

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

People will tell you that DRK is harder because that aspect of their playstyle that is DPS-like never stops, and isn't limited to just their burst period.

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The hardest part about playing a DPS is not their cruise-control rotation spam while fitting in their oGCDs. It's properly aligning their burst based on fight mechanics, boss phases, skill synergy, CD windows, and up-time -- and, that's what WARs are constantly doing. You don't just say "oh hey, 20 seconds of uptime, time to triple FC." You have to understand how your CD expenditure fits into the entire fight like I already explained. Again, this is why I repeatedly say the DRKs play more in the moment and WARs require a much better understanding of the overall fight. You can't say that WAR's similarities to DPS are incredibly simple without going two steps further and reaching the realization that DRK's DPS elements are even simpler.

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Originally Posted by Februs

Looking back, I'm pretty sure that the exact wording was that Pld is the hardest tank for maintaining threat, specifically, due to the fact that they have the lowest enmity multiplier of all three tanks.

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No. Numerous people in this topic have made the claim that in general, PLD is harder than WAR. It was not restricted to threat. Are you agreeing?

But, even if you look at threat, it's not harder to keep aggro on PLD. It's just less damage efficient. It's not harder to use RoH instead of RA in your 3 combo rotation. It's not harder to Flash instead instead of Overpower or Abyssal Drain / Unleash.

In regards to AoE enmity, I don't know what world you live in but how are you supposed to rotate RoH through a pull of 10 mobs before the rest of your party starts to bomb heals / AoEs? You can't. You pull, you CoS after the gather, you Flash a couple times to solidify enmity, and then you are trying to get up as many unique GB DoTs as possible before switching to RA to finish off the almost dead mobs. You use your SS and SW to neutralize an annoying AoE or just to push damage / enmity and CoS off CD. You do not spam Flash. Outside of the very rare small pull, you do not cycle RoH. You make the claim to know the math but clearly don't. RoH is something like 163 potency per GCD in ShO. GB when you are getting full and unique DoT duration is 230+ per GCD. For every combo rotation of GB, you are gaining more than an extra GCD of damage over RoH. On a large pull, if you prioritize GB and use the occasional flash to supplement your AoE enmity (single-target enmity should be handled through your GB damage + SW + SS), you get more enmity AND more damage.

Is that harder than what DRKs and WARs deal with? Sure. But, it doesn't outweigh the overall ease of playing PLD.

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Originally Posted by Februs

Sorry to tell you this, but this is also not accurate.

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I never said they were exactly the same. They obviously aren't since DRG oGCD is much more nuanced. But, all your details ignore the fundamental ways they are the same and instead argues the minutia and is just superfluous ranting.

On both DRG and DRK, you have a lot of oGCDs that you want to use as frequently as possible with a set priority and within a given rule set.

Just like how DRGs shouldn't use animation lock oGCD jumps before they need to reposition for a positional GCD, DRKs shouldn't be blowing their Reprisal proc at an inappropriate time when it's needed to mitigate an upcoming damage mechanic. The priority and rule set DRKs play around consists of fight mechanics and potency to MP efficiency. The priority and rule set DRGs play around consists of fight mechanics, GCD synergy and buff synergy. Same general concept but with different rules.

If you are familiar with the ideas behind oGCD usage on a DRG, DRK oGCD usage is child's play. Why? Again, because you are merely adapting to different rules and priorities. It's not hard to remember MP priorities of DA C&S --> Dark Passenger --> DA Soul Eater if MP is ever an issue (and it's usually not). It's not hard to remember to save Plunge when it's needed as a gap closer -- DRGs and MNKs already do that with their gap closers. It's not hard to hold Salted Earth to avoid an immunity window or Reprisal for a fight mechanic -- DPS already do that with their buff management.

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Originally Posted by Blackbird1

Oh god no war might have a few extra keys but it's far easier then pld or drk since your not worrying about things like mp management. Once you've learned the rotations it's fairly easy plus you got a kick ass axe instead of a sword and shield. imo best to put your points to str when lvling to 50 before desiding on switching to something like str and vit just make sure you got your provoke and whatever else you think you'll need

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PLDs have MP management?

And you could say the same thing about DRKs in relation to their MP management. Once you've learned the rotations it's fairly easy since your MP management is based on a priority rotation and not being a complete moron.

Most of the additions to WAR with Heavensward were quality-of-life changes. While this hasn't made the job "simpler", it certainly is more forgiving to play than it used to be in the 2.x series. Even if you make a poor decision, something good still happens because of the amazing synergy between all the skills. Although you are required to "manage" stacks, there rarely is a situation where you are punished and left resource-starved for doing this poorly, outside of an incorrectly timed berserk. (Incidently, one of the best ways to become better at stack management and buff timing on WAR is to spend a good amount of time practicing hudless, which isn't feasible at all on DRK.)

Any job becomes more complex as you come to better understand its potential. There's a good bit of nuance and skill to playing WAR well, but it certainly is the most straightforward tank class to pick up and play at the moment. That's more a testament to it's design than anything else.

I found WAR to be pretty easy to learn how to play because everything really does fit well together. I play DRK more but I really do appreciate how well-designed WAR is.

So without all the long explanation. Being amazing as a war is complicated and harder than being amazing at the other two tank classes.

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Originally Posted by Riki_Namu

So without all the long explanation. Being amazing as a war is complicated and harder than being amazing at the other two tank classes.

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You made me lol.

XD sorry i don't get you but it make me lol too, i think being amazing is complicated, because to be amazing you need to be awesome and marvelous also.
with any job being so lovely should be complicated even if the job seem easy to begin with, because it's so hard to be amazing to the eyes of others :).
But yes ! just be amazing !

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Originally Posted by Riki_Namu

So without all the long explanation. Being amazing as a war is complicated and harder than being amazing at the other two tank classes.

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yeah war's ego is realy op in heavensward

Whatever helps you sleep at night, PLDs and DRKs.

\WAR is easy.

So are the other tanks.

...by design.

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

\WAR is easy.

So are the other tanks.

...by design.

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Easy and simple are two different things though.

Poking yourself in the eye is simple but that doesn't mean its easy for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

PLDs have MP management?

And you could say the same thing about DRKs in relation to their MP management. Once you've learned the rotations it's fairly easy since your MP management is based on a priority rotation and not being a complete moron.

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believe it or not yes in a way i've seen pld's burn through mp like their skills are going out of style because they don't know how to manage aggro and they start popping things like flash over and over the sec it's ready again

Tank can be judged as easy like a war, or simple, but
players have to think twice on what a tank can do ?

1) hold aggro, damage migitation : it's the basics

2) bring more dps when they can (it's not needed exept in savage raid atm, maybe some tank think it's a priority, i think the raid don't leave the choice )

3) get better on tank migitation, by a perfect knowledge of a fight pattern (A to Z, include auto attack and cleave, when you are not sitting on CD, you certainly brings CD timed with cleave, especialy inner beast/ Shiltron, or any pop fast CD)

4) make up for error, have a knowledge of the dps mechanics of a fight, sometimes you can't advoid a wipe, by replace the dps killed waiting for a rez (by exemple : a tank get an add under the bim in A1/A1S it's totaly possible if the beam is near enough to not get stacked by moving the boss), also when a heal die, a tank try and focus only to migitate damage the most they can afford and wait for a rez of the healer.

with all that point in mind a tank seem easy but can be complicated, this is why tank is fun to me.
It's not harder to do that with a war than a other tank, you just need to know your Job skills and have initiative for many of the possible situation.

PLD is a joke, WAR is a joke after you know how to play it. DRK requires management and skill... Most because its horridly designed.

and when you will be even better with your dark it will be a joke too ? because it's what happen when you know
at least it's funny to play for someone bored to play pld or war.
MP management is not that hard, the Defense CD is a little tricky, there are more offensive CD, CD combi.
I can tell the dark is more nervous to play, and have more CD involvement than the two others tank.
I personaly like to play it, my concern would be if a fight is 100% physycal the dark get a little screwed.

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Originally Posted by kensatsu

I personaly like to play it, my concern would be if a fight is 100% physycal the dark get a little screwed.

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Not as much as you'd think. Rotate Shadowskin, Shadow Wall, and Living Dead in whatever order gets you the most CD usage, using Dark Dance between each buster to try and proc Reprisal, and using DA + DM for any magical party-wide AOEs that go out if it's got no other use. PLD, even in 3.0, is similar to this - Rampart, Sentinel, and Hallowed, but having access to Sheltron which gives them the ability to either combine it with other CDs or use it as it's own CD if none of the others are available (~29% mitigation with a tower shield, ~43% total with ShO), and Divine Veil for party-wide AOEs. WAR has quite a few CD rotations depending on the encounter, Thrill + Convo + RI [+ IB + Equilibrium] -> Vengeance + Mantra [+ IB + Equilibrium] for 60s, Thrill + Convo [+ IB] -> Vengeance [+ IB] -> RI + Mantra [+IB] for 40s, Vengeance + Thrill + Convo + RI + Mantra + [IB + Equilibrium] for 120s, etc. There are a lot of variations for WAR and ways to use CDs effectively depending on the fight, PLD/DRK do have a bit of variation similarly but not as much.

That aside, DRK is pretty straightforward for physical fights due to the limits on CDs it has available, but because of this SE has to design fights that accommodate this rotation so you should be in the clear unless some weird PLD/WAR-only strat comes out.

WAR is fairly simple to play. Knowing the fight and when to use stacks and when to save is probably the hardest part.

I personally find DRK the be the hardest to play, only because its a pretty busy ass job. The concept is simple/easy just like PLD, but just trying to spam thru all the oGCD attacks can get overwhelming at times.

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Originally Posted by ZanzhizExaverion

PLD is a joke, WAR is a joke after you know how to play it. DRK requires management and skill... Most because its horridly designed.

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Ironically I feel like DRK is the easiest.... outside of mana management its very simple. Warrior would probably be the one I am weakest on. That is at being amazing.

WAR is probably the easiest tank to do well with since the job is really well designed. The DPS combo is also the enmity combo (Butcher's Block) for WAR, unlike DRK and PLD. AoE enmity and damage is really easy with Overpower. Maim, Berserk, Unchained, and Internal Release make it real simple for more DPS and enmity. Not to mention WAR gets access to Storm's Eye slashing debuff. About everything is on the GCD except Brutal Swing's stun so no oGCDs to keep track of like with DRK. Steel Cyclone/Decimate/Inner Beast/Fell Cleave are really good moves that also save TP. Oh yeah Equilibrium too. Storm's Path damage down is really nice during progression for those damaging boss attacks. WAR is a lot more intuitive to play than PLD or DRK.

WAR are also the best for doing hunts. It is always a WAR tanking an S-rank or A-rank hunt mob. Snap aggro is super easy with WAR.

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Originally Posted by lulunami

WAR is probably the easiest tank to do well with since the job is really well designed.

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This is true, if you know how to play WAR. People seem to often forget that even though WAR has amazing synergy with its own entire toolset it's not quite as evident from the get-go, specially when you're a new tank. When playing DRK or PLD all you need are your tank stance, a cooldown here and there and spamming your AOE enmity generation as long as your resources allow it. WAR isn't as obvious from the get-go, its enmity generation isn't as amazing as DRK at low levels and crap cooldowns like foresight keep WAR on the loosing end, namely since Defiance does not give immediate eHP when used (unlike the other two stances). The first decent cooldown WARs get is Thrill of Battle and since it heals HP most people seem to use it as a self-heal instead of a defensive cooldown and most newer WARs don't immediately see the synergy it has with Convalescence. WAR is, without a doubt, the tank with the highest skill floor out of the three tanks. Not to say it's HARD but for new players it can be difficult to properly use your skills unless you have read beforehand about them and their respective synergies. That's why DF WARs are generally the hardest to deal with as a healer, unless you run into a skilled WAR, then it's a quick and efficient run.

Once you get how it works though, you understand why people call the class "easy" and man it feels amazing.

And people are saying PLD is harder? Can't tell if they're being silly or just funny. PLD was the only class I have ever played in the game that has such a noticeable skill ceiling (at least during normal play).

Note TC, Don't let my words discourage you. Higher skill floor does not mean that the class is hard to play, just that it's not obvious from the get-go like other tanks. But once you understand how WAR properly works then it's an amazing game changer to discover the raw amount of versatility and synergy the class has. I highly recommend giving it a spin if you're interested in tanking, don't let people dissuade you that WAR is “only” a squishier tank that can DPS, it can tank AND dps extremely well.

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Originally Posted by Merkava

snip.

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That and its the only tank job that can solo ex trials .... such power and regen

i think people here confond easier to begin with, easier when you are exp and know everything with war or even the 3 tanks.
Both tanks is simple on the paper, but you need exp with to know how to use all the toolkit the better as possible.
Let's see any change at 3.2, i don't tell here tank don't need tweaks.
Regen is powerfull like you say, this is why "an exp war" can do extreme primals. the pld/dark lack regen for this, i think equilibrum is too awesome when buffed with berserk/str and possibly crit. (dark and pal don't have anything like this,)
but anyway all the war out there is not like this. This is so Many of OT Str dpsing war only forgeting the war is or was a tank.

I see comment tell dark is easy/war is easy or pld is easy, if it's easy you can focus to proggress with the job, i think it's a high progress marge with any job in the game even the OP one.
When it's easy, make it harder or it's not fun.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

??????????????????? Delirium being reset early literally affects nothing. You apply the DoT when it falls off, you have 1 DoT. What. What?? WHAT?? Honestly. Honestly. Come on.

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I know Path is a DPS loss for WAR, but DRK's have no excuses to not have their debuffs up as much as possible.

And yes, Blood Weapon lining up with your applications of Delirium and Scourge does affect your rotation; allow me to enlighten you...

If Blood Weapon comes off cooldown in such a way that you can Scourge>DE combo>Blood Weapon you can get off two DA-SEs and then re-apply Delirium and Scourge in that order without losing either of them. This is a thing you have to watch for, because it will not be same twice in a row due to BW's cooldown being 40s, duration 15s, Scourge's duration 30s, and DE's duration 20s, much like WAR with Berserk and Infuriate and/or RI/Vengeance not lining up perfectly twice in a row. For it to not clip Scourge you have to be at a point in your rotation where both Scourge and Delirium are about to fall, with Scourge sooner, and with BW coming off recast at almost the same time. If you simply alternate DE/DASE Scourge is always applied after the every other use of one or the other depending on extra DA-SEs you may have used. It is not simple to map this out at all and varies depending on the fight so it is a situation you have to watch for.

Furthermore, if BW is on cooldown and you can afford to let Delirium drop, you can <DA>-HS-SS-SE-<DA>-HS-<C&S>-SS-<DA>-SE for a pretty huge burst. You cannot do this with BW up cause your GCD is too fast, and you have to time DA perfectly because of its 5s recast to DA two SEs in a row with a DA Carve woven in between, in much the same way as you must pop Berserk late in the GCD to have it not pacify you in an untimely fashion. Again, this requires a decent chunk of MP and planning, and you obviously must use Scourge immediately prior and be able to let Delirium fall for a few seconds in order to pull it off, and it has to coincide with C&S' recast time to avoid saving the CD and losing DPS, obviously.

WAR doesn't have the tanking monopoly on rotational awareness and planning. Getting off bursts like this in accordance with the duration of your debuffs and when BW and C&S come off recast while maximizing DA SE usage is apparently completely unknown information. Never seen it anywhere on the forums, and there are still a plethora of people out there that just say "blah blah rotate DE/DASE ezpz". I'm sorry its not as well publicized as stuff like triple cleave but its still a thing. Countless people show their ignorance and lack of curiosity/motivation to learn about maximizing a job not named WAR. This oversimplication of other jobs isn't going to buy us more quality players that main them, that's for sure.

Merkava -

Unless they changed something, thrill isn't affected by convalescence.

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Originally Posted by Bashum

Merkava -

Unless they changed something, thrill isn't affected by convalescence.

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I think he meant that its a good synergy because you self heal with thrill and convalescence makes it easier for healer top off your extra hp. At least thats why i pop thrill an convalescence.

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Originally Posted by Bashum

Merkava -

Unless they changed something, thrill isn't affected by convalescence.

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Convalescence + Thrill is basically 20 second Defiance (or super Defiance if used while on Defiance). They also share the same the same re-cast timer. You don't boost Thrill's healing power with Conva but you improve the buff considerably by using them together. There are plenty of skills on the WAR roster that work much better when combined with another cooldown, for instance Bloodbath/Berserk and Raw Intuition/Awareness. That is what I meant that a WARs versatility isn't as obvious from the get-go since other classes like PLD and DRK pretty much just pop a cooldown when needed and they're good to go, rarely having stuff that directly synergies with something else.

There are occasions where you need to use them separately, thordan comes to mind, but in general they do synergize well. And yea, you dont really see those types of synergy with the other tanks toolkit.

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Originally Posted by Merkava

Convalescence + Thrill is basically 20 second Defiance (or super Defiance if used while on Defiance). They also share the same the same re-cast timer. You don't boost Thrill's healing power with Conva but you improve the buff considerably by using them together. There are plenty of skills on the WAR roster that work much better when combined with another cooldown, for instance Bloodbath/Berserk and Raw Intuition/Awareness. That is what I meant that a WARs versatility isn't as obvious from the get-go since other classes like PLD and DRK pretty much just pop a cooldown when needed and they're good to go, rarely having stuff that directly synergies with something else.

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Yeah that's fair, I thought you were implying the self heal was increased by convalescence.