Do you find running the same raid/dungeon/fight 100+ times fun?

I enjoy it. I think it's fun to do with my friends and gives me a goal. I'm also currently aiming for the mining achievements which require mining nodes in quantities of thousands.

Everyone enjoys different things.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

If I knew the answer to that question I would be making my own MMORPG and would have as much subscribers as wow.

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I'll leave the quote as is, although you have edited your reply since. I do want to point out, however, that League of Legends is not an MMO. Do you want FFXIV to turn into a story-based MOBA rather than an MMO? That might be an intriguing game.

As an example, "Decent replay value", from my perspective, is fairly subjective. I thoroughly enjoy a run through Aurum Vale. I learned early-on how to handle the instance, and as I run my other jobs through that instance, I find new things to see and do there. Do I expect everyone to agree with me? No way -- I read the forums!

Do I expect SE to take Aurum Vale and use it as an example of an instance to recreate again and again? I hope not.

Your turn ...

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

I love it. I enjoy running dungeons and raids. I am working on leveling up my alt jobs and do nothing but dungeon runs.

Not everyone gets bored with them after 2 runs.

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To be quite honest with the new lvl 60 dungeons, I got bored after 2 runs, because I know that once I run the dungeons one time, nothing will change the second. I usually run with familiar tank and dps for most time-effective runs, and quite literally nothing changes. It gets to the point where I have pretty much set rotation of when and where to use skills in the entire dungeon. That is repetitive and boring and adds absolutely no play value.

One could argue doing it with different people. My answer is... why would I gimp my effective runs since I'm there only for daily tomes? The loot it gives is bad even for alts.

¨Solution? Yes, there are many solutions but SE is ignorant to them.

• Make dungeons change with random parameters or add different paths a party could follow. These paths should have different rewards and a bit of story to them, ending in different bosses. These bosses don't have to have super-unique mechanics to lessen the workload, but alter them from each other slightly.

• Add NPC's in dungeons for optional content for optional further rewards. Randomize the NPC locations and what they are asking each time. This could only be available when you have roulette bonus available, or all the time!

• Add optional (hidden?) difficult bosses in each dungeon that challenge players for further reward. With difficult I am thinking like quick encounters with difficult mechanics.

• Make use of more innovative methods than plain fighting. Jumping puzzles (but maybe it's only enough for one to clear to activate teleport node for the rest of the party to make it less brutal for those not very good at it), Real dodging mechanics like jumping over stuff and dodging left and right. We already have sprint, why not add dodge roll?

Those are a few suggestions. I talk a lot about rewards, but this could be in form of gil or useful, rare crafting materials or unique gear (such as Diadem), or different vanity stuff.

I also like the word 'randomize' a lot, but honestly you can do all these without randomizing them and I would still be content.

Personally I can't get enough of 30-man raids. Void Ark was a slight disappointment though. The bosses weren't as they were in the other three dungeons. These mechanics were too easy to get down during the fight that my party I've done it with didn't wipe a single time when the dungeon released. I do kind of wish SE would focus more on releasing these types of dungeons. Get a Savage raid dedecated to 30 people. Let people make a alliance before applying.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

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It was fixed and people still had problems with it, which is why titan hm was the last primal fight "required" for a relic. There was ample opportunity and plenty of primal fights all through arr to be required for the relic and SE never seized those opportunities. We got grinds because people complained about "difficulty."

Again, this is what the casual-core wanted and it titillates me to no end that they are upset about what their play style begot them. A grind can only be wrapped in a different package before it becomes old and this fish is starting to stink. My appetite for schadenfreude has been completely sated by this experience. I hope the next step is twice as grindy as this one.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

Well with todays gamers just can't keep them happy SE is pretty much on the losing end any either way cause people seem to want content that can be beaten in a week or two and then they will complain about there nothing to do. So it usually ends up in one of two ways.

1: SE creates long grindy content that people complain that takes to long and boring and they unsub.
2: SE creates shorter more "fun" content that people blow through and beat and then complain there nothing to do and unsub.

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It was their plan to do a 3 month release schedule and suddenly having the need for a break in HW, not the fans. Also, the predictability of the content is causing even what you would call 2 to be more like 1 eventually. Notice the backbone of a lot of what we are generally doing as content in HW we did in ARR? Dungeon roulettes, trials, the easier raids. So when the answer to that is even more grinding, and people aren't as enthused of the delivered content to begin with its not going to satisfy very well.

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So, you were just complaining for its own sake? You have no idea of what it would take to satisfy your ideal? How is a game company supposed to respond to that?

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I have no idea, surely not what is currently in heavensward, in any case (and I m not the only one in the same boat).

What I know for sure is that it isn't what SE is currently providing.

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As an example, "Decent replay value", from my perspective, is fairly subjective.

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Generally, the game which have good replay value are the top played games. Chess is a quite old game, and is still played today, due to its replay value.

Also, if you look closely at wich game are currently watched on twitch :

http://www.twitch.tv/directory

You ll notice that the most popular games are those with the best replay value (FFXIV being at the bottom of the list, it should be telling you something).

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I'll leave the quote as is, although you have edited your reply since. I do want to point out, however, that League of Legends is not an MMO. Do you want FFXIV to turn into a story-based MOBA rather than an MMO? That might be an intriguing game.

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I was talking about LoL because it is the most popular PC game ever developed. It should tell you something that it is not a MMO (maybe that MMO developpers aren't focusing on the right things ?).

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

I love it. I enjoy running dungeons and raids. I am working on leveling up my alt jobs and do nothing but dungeon runs.

Not everyone gets bored with them after 2 runs.

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This. Quite a lot of the dungeons are fun, though I admit some get boring and annoying fast, though that may be because of either lack of mechanics (see all dungeons before Haukke Manor) or because they showed up too much in the roulette way back when so you're still tired of them (see AK HM and the HW endgame dungeons).

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Originally Posted by zosia

It was fixed and people still had problems with it, which is why titan hm was the last primal fight "required" for a relic. There was ample opportunity and plenty of primal fights all through arr to be required for the relic and SE never seized those opportunities. We got grinds because people complained about "difficulty.".

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why do you think it was fixed?
they fixed it for -some- people
I still get aoe lag on circle-aoes for numerous fights (e.g. i still get hit when i'm as far as possible from the AOE without falling off)

And so do many other people
Most of them just quit (half my friends who I started with left because they couldn't do endgame due to the server issues)

And it's not "me"
I had no issues with xi, 1.0, SWTOR, ESO, GW2, and various other games.

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Originally Posted by Blood-Aki

Welcome to How MMOs work? WHat MMO do you know that doesn't need you to grind at some point for top gear, P2W games don't count.

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See I think that is where you are wrong.. Yea Grind is in every mmo and that is true without a doubt, welcome to mmo's. I dont mind grind but I want a reward for my grind not a piece of gear that is outdated two weeks later in the next update and then I have to do the exact same grind again for a peace of gear that will be outdated in two weeks again. Grind is fine as long as it matches the reward.

There is no top gear in this game.

I have watched my favourite movie and read my favourite books a lot of times, but I don't do it again right after I finish it, 8 times in a row, I would end up hating it no matter how much I liked it at first, just like that hit song that plays so many times on the radio you can'd stand it anymore after a while.

It's the same thing here. Would I mind running Garuda EX 100 times? Not really, I have already because I love that fight. Would I mind having to run Garuda 20 times for a drop, then having to run it 20 times for another drop, then 20 times for lights, then 20 times for an accessory and another 20 times for some more light, all for the same quest? Hell yeah I do, I wouldn't even start the quest in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

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After it was fixed, most "problems" with titan HM were ps3 sucked, your isp sucked, and/or the player sucked. Again, people complained and that was the last time we saw any real difficulty in the relic chain.

If the relic chain can't be difficult, it has to be grindy to gate players since the difficulty has been removed. I would love a relic that was shorter and more challenging rather than mindless repetitive grinds. But hey, I am just some hardcore player that is a minority, lets give the casual players what they want since they are the majority! LOLOLOLOLOL at least I can be entertained from their excessive whining about the lack of instant gratification and the excess of repetitiveness of grinding.

Ah, man, christmas came early this year.

I don't mind running them. I even love running Tam Tara. These dungeons are beautiful. there isn't enough credit to give on how astounding these dungeons are.

I think it's like others said, they are very straight forward. I guess you can say they're boring after the 800th time, but maybe it depends on when you did those 800. If you did them in a week? Sure let the sickness sink in..if you do it over a period of time? Not so bad. Most do run and burn themselves out. They need it now now now and wanting to have everything.

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Originally Posted by zosia

I would love a relic that was shorter and more challenging rather than mindless repetitive grinds.

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That would be fine also, then those who want it will have to do more than spend insane amounts of time. Either one is okay by me, as a filthy casual I am if the quest line was more difficult I would most likely step my game up but I gear for the content I enjoy playing. I know some who are upset with this whole thing, and they should be they are hardcore end-game raiders who I think deserve something amazing and special for completing a task. Something I could never get just logging in and messing around for a few hours. That's me though, and that's a different topic on how I think raiders should get something astounding because they worked hard. Which goes into how raiding should work..and it's just a rabbit hole from there.

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Originally Posted by Memoe

¨Solution? Yes, there are many solutions but SE is ignorant to them.

• Make dungeons change with random parameters ...

...

• Make use of more innovative methods than plain fighting. Jumping puzzles ...

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A nice list, but what makes you think SE hasn't considered them?

I'm also unsure about whether you expect these sorts of things to apply the first time you go to a dungeon instance, or only afterward? How much randomization do you want? Should there be a separate queue set up for "daily randomized"? What would that mean to new player completion of leveling instances?

And, more importantly, have you experienced any of the items in your list in other MMOs? I had some experience with jumping puzzles -- WoW has all sorts of those in its latest expansion, but not in dungeon instances. I suspect people would get frustrated with new players who couldn't 'get it' right away, so that 'teleport' fix is good.

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Originally Posted by zosia

After it was fixed, most "problems" with titan HM were ps3 sucked, your isp sucked, and/or the player sucked. Again, people complained and that was the last time we saw any real difficulty in the relic chain.

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I've been stuck on Titan until I got a PS4 because it was just impossible to evade WoL. As soon as I got it I beat it on my first try. The problem wasn't the difficulty, the problem was Titan (never had a problem with any other trial on my ps3). It's just another instance of the devs removing entirely a piece of content that's causing problems (trials in relic) rather than going to the root of the problem and fix it (avoid whatever causes Titan to be so laggy compared to the rest of the game).

Think crafted gear, classes, dual jobs... it's their mo.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

A nice list, but what makes you think SE hasn't considered them?

I'm also unsure about whether you expect these sorts of things to apply the first time you go to a dungeon instance, or only afterward? How much randomization do you want? Should there be a separate queue set up for "daily randomized"? What would that mean to new player completion of leveling instances?

And, more importantly, have you experienced any of the items in your list in other MMOs? I had some experience with jumping puzzles -- WoW has all sorts of those in its latest expansion, but not in dungeon instances. I suspect people would get frustrated with new players who couldn't 'get it' right away, so that 'teleport' fix is good.

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I was pretty clear where randomization could be applied, but also that it isn't necessary for enjoying the content. First time clears would be enough for new players just to complete one of the paths, and of course everything optional is available there. I don't understand the problem there.

Not everyone might want to do optional content, but that brings us to the PF, which could be used to set up quick runs or runs that focuses on optional stuff. As for solo roulette... hope for the best you don't get an annoying party. You could add little fancy boxes to tick for your roulette preferences (quick run or run with more rewards). I wish SE would encourage people to socialize more. It's not hard to find 3 players for dungeons.

Leveling instances can stay the same for all that I care. They're there for quick exp and leveling gear, no one cares about those.

As for have I experienced those in any other game? yes. Guild Wars 2 offers dodge mechanics and jumping puzzles in dungeons, as well as possibility for multiple story routes (each one offering tomes). I just added more to them. But the GW2 team thinks dungeons are dead content (as in modern MMO gaming), so they don't add any more. :/

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I'm also unsure about whether you expect these sorts of things to apply the first time you go to a dungeon instance, or only afterward? How much randomization do you want? Should there be a separate queue set up for "daily randomized"? What would that mean to new player completion of leveling instances?

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We're talking about level 60 content here, by now "new" players shouldn't be that new to the game anymore.

Also, non linear dungeons, in which you wouldn't have to go everywhere on a single run, may add some replay value (same goes for raids). Just the fact of having to think about where to go in the dungeon can provide the needed replay value, rather than having to rush trough a corridor in the current dungeons.

Do you mean in the course of a couple of years, or a couple of weeks?

This comes under the heading of "they do it to themselves" in my opinion. People play however they want. I agree that running, and running and re-running the same dungeon 100+ times in a couple of weeks would be incredibly boring and would quickly burn me out on that dungeon at very least. Which is why I don't play that way.

But it's like that with everything in life. I might see a movie several times, but not consecutively. I might eat a Big-Mac for lunch today, but I'm not going to eat nothing but Big Macs for the next month, I'd get bored long before the month was out.

In everything variety is the spice of life and a balanced diet is important. Apply that principle to the way you play games and I think you will find the games themselves not only last longer, but are far more enjoyable.

Also, People need to understand that if they grind away at this for 4-6 hours a day doing the same thing, it's not healthy. Take a break, skip a day, do something else, read a book, see the sun, hug real people, don't play more than an hour or two at a time without taking a decent break. Seriously, not only are you hurting your enjoyment of the game, but you truly are hurting yourself.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

I was talking about LoL because it is the most popular PC game ever developed. It should tell you something that it is not a MMO (maybe that MMO developpers aren't focusing on the right things ?).

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There are a wide variety of games out there, for sure. The most popular games are definitely not MMORPGs. I don't expect them to be so.

The problem, however, is the perception that an MMORPG has to incorporate <insert the favorite feature of your favorite non-MMORPG> in order to be successful.

I looked at the Twitch directory. I don't see how relevant "Hearthstone" and "Counterstrike" are to the MMO genre. The number of viewers may not reflect the actual popularity of the game -- it does reflect what games are being viewed via Twitch.

For the MMORPG genre, I would suspect this list to be a bit more accurate, even though it is a self-rated community.

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/s...pe/sOrder/desc

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Originally Posted by Moqi

I have watched my favorite movie and read my favorite books a lot of times, but I don't do it again right after I finish it, 8 times in a row, I would end up hating it no matter how much I liked it at first, just like that hit song that plays so many times on the radio you can'd stand it anymore after a while.

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That is actually a really good point. It does not matter how much you like something if you have to do it over and over again. Same with music or food. No matter how much I like tacos or pizza I wouldn't if Had to eat them everyday.
It is not that people hate the game they hate doing the same thing over and over. But to me it also is the rewards are not worth the grind because everything is outdated in weeks. I mean how many different tomes have we had already? Enough.

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Originally Posted by Stanelis

We're talking about level 60 content here, by now "new" players shouldn't be that new to the game anymore.

Also, non linear dungeons, in which you wouldn't have to go everywhere on a single run, may add some replay value (same goes for raids). Just the fact of having to think about where to go in the dungeon can provide the needed replay value, rather than having to rush trough a corridor in the current dungeons.

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So, not leveling dungeons, but true level 60 instances then? That would be, um, Neverreap, Fractal Continuum, Pharos Sirius Hard and the Arboretum, yes?

You are describing something like the U'ghamaro Mines when you mean 'non-linear'? I have read in the forums of areas in FFXI something like this. Are they independent instances, or just part of the real world like the Mines? Any other MMOs come to mind where you've read about or experienced non-linearity?

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Any other MMOs come to mind where you've read about or experienced non-linearity?

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Maybe it's time to get innovative?

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Originally Posted by Memoe

Maybe it's time to get innovative?

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From what I have read, the Diadem is the ultimate non-linear instance. You are free go absolutely anywhere, concentrate on a single area, do nothing but gather, etc. There are some loose goals, a number of monsters, and no restraint on where you go or how you get there.

Have you experienced it? What did you think?

Yes. Did it way more than that in PSO and it's various iterations. Also other hunting games. It's just here, the way the game is designed, it's not really fun to do that.

Yes and no.

No, duty finder expert roulette is not fucking fun. I die a little more inside every time I have to do it.

Yes, expert roulette with a premade group of 4 can be fun. Try it as three warriors and a scholar. Or four warriors if you're feeling particularly badass. Or three monks and an astrologian. Or just a standard party, but pull EVERYTHING at once, door to door. Who cares if you wipe, you're among friends. Just see if you can do it. Try new things, don't just stick to The Strat (tm).

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

From what I have read, the Diadem is the ultimate non-linear instance. You are free go absolutely anywhere, concentrate on a single area, do nothing but gather, etc. There are some loose goals, a number of monsters, and no restraint on where you go or how you get there.

Have you experienced it? What did you think?

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I enjoy it, several fc member arrange both fighting and gathering runs. Is it perfect? No, but is certainly been a good addition. Its hard to call diadem "ultimate" as there is still a lack of randomness in Diadem.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

So, not leveling dungeons, but true level 60 instances then? That would be, um, Neverreap, Fractal Continuum, Pharos Sirius Hard and the Arboretum, yes?

You are describing something like the U'ghamaro Mines when you mean 'non-linear'? I have read in the forums of areas in FFXI something like this. Are they independent instances, or just part of the real world like the Mines? Any other MMOs come to mind where you've read about or experienced non-linearity?

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You had some non linear dungeons in wow (the first temple of atal hakkar and black rock deep), FFXI (Sky, Sea, ...), valkyrie profile, demon/dark souls, any offline TES. Any paperback tabletop RPG (FFXIV is supposed to be a RPG).

Also, the diadem is flawed because nothing incite you to explore (there must be points of interest in the dungeon, both in term of gameplay and visually). The diadem is flawed because the layout of the area isn't very interesting (both in term of level design and points of interests) and the way the instance works (you just have to kill small mobs and hope bigger mobs will spawn). A true non linear dungeon, featuring exploration, should be something like a labyrinth (or a castle with intricate level design, like in castlevania) where monster and bosses would spawn randomly, and in which you d have to hunt for them.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

From what I have read, the Diadem is the ultimate non-linear instance. You are free go absolutely anywhere, concentrate on a single area, do nothing but gather, etc. There are some loose goals, a number of monsters, and no restraint on where you go or how you get there.

Have you experienced it? What did you think?

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Its potential turned into zerg-fests. Still, I like the feeling of community for the first time in a long while. I don't know how you could do it better, but I also think it's not overly enjoyable after a good while. So, I just tolerate it and go for some fun with friends from time to time.

The devs could add some challenge into it, like Alex with nobody dying or super speed-run in an expert dungeon while getting all chests (maybe 15 minutes).

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Originally Posted by Immut

No, duty finder expert roulette is not fucking fun. I die a little more inside every time I have to do it.

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I think this is a huge reason behind content feeling boring and painful to do. You're shoved together with random people that you will most likely never see or be able to talk to again. There is no reason to make the runs fun as most people seem to just want to get in and done as soon as possible.

Cross-server chat and guesting would add a ton to the game. :X People may actually take the time to be social, and may start to actually enjoy their DF runs as they could then continue chatting with that person they just met on <whatever> server.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

I think this is a huge reason behind content feeling boring and painful to do. You're shoved together with random people that you will most likely never see or be able to talk to again. There is no reason to make the runs fun as most people seem to just want to get in and done as soon as possible.

Cross-server chat and guesting would add a ton to the game. :X People may actually take the time to be social, and may start to actually enjoy their DF runs as they could then continue chatting with that person they just met on <whatever> server.

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I think that is part of it too....
Last night running DF this tank just leaves us.. We were doing fine too he just felt like leaving and did. There we sit.

I liked Alexander for some time but, everything gets stale eventually. I'm not even touching it for the relic grind.

Grind dousnt bother me. Thou i do wish they wold have done something a bit more like the 2.0 relic first quest were you have to go thou all these trails and such to get that weapon, i think itd be more fun that way in sted of only just mindless.
I can personally run dungons and trails over and over and over... etc. with out getting overly bourd. I do know some that cant stand at all to run something more than 2 times in a row. Only thing i dislike is being forced to do fates. I really dislike fates lol

Titan HM wasn't why the direction of the relic changed. What happened was that players wanted their already obtained relic(s) to undergo stages like with XI, where it'd gradually grow more powerful over time by doing different tasks. So basically, a continuation of the Relic Reborn concept. Since it wasnt SE's intent to continue the storyline past that quest in the first place, they fell to their standard practice: devising ways to get players into doing older/neglected content under the guise of the Zodiac Braves storyline.

Same way with the original Hunts. It wasn't in their plans to add it, but they shoehorned it in due to fan request, hence why it was such a mess first time around (e.g. the Naul fiasco)