Disturbing trend with tanks

Its a common thing when people do roulette and they get the long dungeons. The leavers want to do the dungeon so they get their daily token and get it over with. I have had times when I just want to do it fast and get it over with, but I have never left a group, because of it. Afcourse there is always the expection that someone realy has to go away, because of real life. I remember joining The Aery as a healer and right before the tank started to pull the first mob, my sister send a message via Whatsapp that she needs me to pick her, because of a issue. I quit the group and while someone could see it as rude, I had to decide which one is more important, my sister or the strangers that I am playing with online. I reckon majority of us will pick real life over ingame life.

This is sadly a behavior that will not go away, unless they make it so longer dungeons gives more tokens or trash drop items of value (more token, mounts, special glamour items etc.) otherwise, this will keep continuing.

I totally had this happen yesterday! I was so confused, but maybe you all could shed some light into this for me:

A friend and I were running Haukke on our second classes (Him - Pugilist, Me - Conjurer: Both lvl 28). A first-timer level 30 pugilist rouletted in, as well a very high-level nice-geared warrior. Everyone says hi, run is going smoothly, no wipes. WAR is marking targets, pulling reasonable amounts, keeping aggro. The pair of PUG take down pretty much everything in a timely manner. As for me: No deaths, definitely no wipes, putting out DPS after the first mob in pack goes down. Pug uses limit on the first boss, tank and I are coordinating our cooldowns, etc. Basically it was the fastest, easiest, leveling DF run you could hope to get into. We were to the second boss in about fifteen minutes or so.

Then, before the pull, the tank says he's going afk to get a glass of water 'real quick'. We all say, okay no problem. Then he immediately goes offline. Not even like a spotty DC type thing, it was obviously deliberate. We're all like, okay, normally you don't go offline for a glass of water. We wait about 15 minutes (which is the same amount of time we've been in the dungeon so far). We (very sadly) vote kick - he was a really great DF tank. Replenish ranks, nothing for another fifteen minutes. We pull the second boss(es) just to see. At about 50% we wipe. Vote abandon. Most disappointing experience ever, mainly because before the tank left it was going AWESOME.

So, I'm trying to think why this happened. Honestly, if he hadn't told us he was going AFK and then gone offline I would have assumed it was an accident. But I'm just really confused as to why someone would play through more than half of a super smooth run (with DF + 1st run exp rewards) then lie to us, then go offline and force us to vote kick you? Was he just trolling us? I just can't figure it out. And I felt so bad for the PUG that was running it first time. If you're reading this: I'm sorry it turned out that way!!

I got AV in my leveling roulette 5 times in a week,didn't leave once. I hate that dungeon with a passion but I can tank it like a pro now lol

I've had this happen a couple of times and I don't understand why. I mean, there really arent any dungeons in this game that seem overwhelming difficult. And if you have a half decent healer and tank, then dungeons like DD and AV are a joke. But, ya, no idea why anyone qued for roulette leveling would abandon... probably looking for that fabled "just came in on the final boss" situation.

This has been a common occurrence since roulettes were added.

It's more efficient to leave a dungeon that will take 30-40m with a new or unsynced player, eat the 30m penalty while doing something else and then insta-queue when the penalty expires. A year ago, there was no such penalty. This led to dozens of revolving-door tanks fishing for easy dungeons/trials - especially in low roulette.

Even after the penalty was added, you still have tanks doing things the old-fashioned way, but there's also a new strain of wankers who will fake d/c or stubbornly afk until you votekick them in order to avoid the penalty. You can't dismiss at the start of the duty, so you either wait for enough time to elapse or leave the duty and suffer the penalty yourself.

I've devised what I believe to be a comprehensive solution to this problem:

1) Queue as a tank for low roulette

Please share any feedback you may have.

So what's the solution when you've run out of tanks to level? :P

That's a post for a different thread.

Well I developed a personal policy depending upon the party make up and who popped offline. In one run of Tam Tara normal that I got as a roulette on my then 59 war, the Sch 'Dced' before the first pull. Since one of the other DPS was an archanist who didn't mind healing (not like I was getting tossed around with my gear lol) we didn't vote kick the person until we reached the final boss. We then easily killed the boss and left the dungeon and the Sch effectively 'stayed' for almost the entire run anyway!

1 out of 10 cant complete the run as a group. av being boss 2, PS 1st boss, DH last boss. Id say I ran these places in ungodly amount and I can just tell when a group is not going to be able to complete the run.I know its a 90 minute dungeon, but you waste your time getting in and fail fail fail fail fail and maybe I can teach them enough to get through or we just get kicked for failing. I would say the timer has ran out on my groups at-least 40 times. yes I run a lot a lot. and no i dont suck, infact I can normally pull people through, tank normally allows me to pull the group through, lol i guess im trying to say Im nice, warmhearted, outgoing, non=sucking, character anyone would be happy to have me in their run.

Honestly if it was my call, if you didn't finish the roulette, you would lose your reward for the day. Doesn't matter how. If you're voted, vote abandon, leave, I don't care. You chose to do a roulette to reap the rewards of doing whatever dungeon with whoever you get paired with. It's a risk-reward system. This would prevent ppl from leaving and would also fix arrogant players that are being unkind or pulling their plug d/c. Both of which would result in a vote kick. It would force that group to suck it up and get through the dungeon. You don't have to like it, but you'll be on your best behavior

I will leave a group if I come in and the tank or healer are severely undergeared. idk how many times I entered neverreap and the tank was in mostly lvl 55 gear. And there is a really disturbing trend of tanks just focusing on one mob and letting the rest eat the party without even a flash or any effort to be seen. And yes I am a smn, aoe is my bread and butter. I can take it easy of course but do not expect me not to bane.

There is a point where it is just ridiculous for someone to expect you to take an extra 30 minutes in a dungeon because they can't even be bothered to buy anything better off the mb. I would rather spend that 30 minutes in my lockout getting other things done, crafting, maps, gathering, etc. and requeue later and get a group that comes at least somewhat prepared.

Currently sitting in AV cause the tank bailed as soon as the gate lifted. This is beyond irritating. >.>

I don't understand why level 60 anythings run Leveling Roulette for esoterics. Isn't it only worth 5? There's so many ways you can get more esoterics with less or equal time investment. Personally I only run Leveling Roulette with jobs that are actually leveling.

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Originally Posted by SummonerSenah

I don't understand why level 60 anythings run Leveling Roulette for esoterics. Isn't it only worth 5? There's so many ways you can get more esoterics with less or equal time investment. Personally I only run Leveling Roulette with jobs that are actually leveling.

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Maybe they don't want the esoterics, but rather the law. You can use law to buy some very rare materials right now.

One problem lies in the fact you cant queue for the Leveling Roulette with friends (I dont mean a full 4 man PT, i mean 2 people queueing for it)

So back in 2.0, when my friends were new, I used to log into each of my tanks, queue up, and if i wasnt in their group, id leave group.
Repeat all 8 characters, and if none of them got into their queue, oh well. (It only worked 50% of the time, btu better than not playing with them at all.)

There might be a similar reasoning with tanks, but as for DPS or healers, might be that a lot of groups will fail at said dungeon, and they figured its best to drop now, before wasting 30mins, to see it wont work, and then get another 30min penalty on top of their wait.)

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Originally Posted by SummonerSenah

I don't understand why level 60 anythings run Leveling Roulette for esoterics. Isn't it only worth 5? There's so many ways you can get more esoterics with less or equal time investment. Personally I only run Leveling Roulette with jobs that are actually leveling.

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5 is the bonus. Plus the 30 or whatever from the dungeon itself.

But personally I've never queued into a dungeon and dropped and I am a tank. Although I have had a tank do it once when I was a dps. I honestly could care less what gear everyone is wearing so long as they are putting in effort to play their class and contribute to the goals of the team.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

5 is the bonus. Plus the 30 or whatever from the dungeon itself.

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But dungeons from LEVELING roulette dont give eso.

Don't mind putting my reasoning out there for doing this last night. From the start it was no communication on my part, but it is how it is.

FC mates had this happen to them, so I que'd for an In Progress with Fractal. Instead of seeing my FC mates, I saw three strangers and it was a fresh start. At the time I was eating, having just got home from ten hours of work. Was wanting to enjoy my hot food but knowing people would want to start rolling, I just grabbed the first two mobs to tank them separate from the usual second set that is pulled from the start. This wasn't good enough and someone pulled the second set anyway.

I had no intention of doing any dungeon roulettes for the rest of the night, as I only have about three hours to play on a weeknight. There wasn't anyway for me to try to get back into Fractal with my FC Mates and I'm not really one to cry to be kicked. Either leave or suck it up and keep going. And after dealing with co-workers during the holiday season I have zero patience with others. Just how it goes.

So I left.

While this is a game with other people, the players leaving are people too. They have their own lives that don't revolve around the three or more pixelated avatars that are running around on the screen. And in some cases what is happening to cause them to leave are frankly no one else's business.

The holiday season in general is a stressful time, and if what someone is going to do is or simply perceived will cause them additional stress it's easier to just take the penalty with a time to cool off.

There is plenty to do in this game, and plenty of other games out there, that pretty much allow you to shrug off a 'penalty' in one small aspect of a game over your personal sanity.

I'll admit that I'm this asshole and I will explain the reason why I would do it.
When I'm level 58 and I get put into a something Tam Tara or Copper Bell...it is kind of like running a dungeon and getting only a fraction of the exp I should be getting from this roulette...granted, when I'm not in a bad mood, I'll give the lower level groups a chance until they wipe on the first trash and I call it a night...but I would say it's probably something like that.
You'll find it a lot with like...The Vault, Aurum Vale, and low level dungeons with 55-59 players.

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Originally Posted by Asheloux

I'll admit that I'm this asshole and I will explain the reason why I would do it.
When I'm level 58 and I get put into a something Tam Tara or Copper Bell...it is kind of like running a dungeon and getting only a fraction of the exp

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So u're an asshole for non-existing reason as u get the additional experience upon clearing dungeon based on the diff of dungeons lvl and your own just to fill that gap

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Originally Posted by l1nk

So u're an asshole for non-existing reason as u get the additional experience upon clearing dungeon based on the diff of dungeons lvl and your own just to fill that gap

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That doesn't make 100% sense...English wise. But okay.
I am not the only person who does that. I guarantee you that people do that for the same reason 'cause 9/10 of the times I have tanks leave before the duty starts is when they are high level and the dungeon is super low level.
SO. Making a point.
I've abandoned shit I don't like though...like Aurum Vale.

I'm extremely tired of this shit.

I've had 10 people today leave on Bismarck(Hard) and the Leveling Roulette just because "Oh, this is too hard for n00bs to do. New people? Screw them. I'm out." - I almost feel that people who leave pertain to that logic unless it's just a dungeon they hate...like Tanking AV(I mean, come on. Tanking AV isn't THAT hard, is it?). I'm also unsure why AV is considered a toxic zone by most players just because of the first room filled with mobs.

Regardless, I think the community would have a lot less vitriol if people would just deal with what they get in the Roulette instead of being a d-bag and leaving.

Edit: Unless you give a reason. Everybody understands when you have a reason to leave, just like saying you have to afk for a minute to take care of the baby or something.

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Originally Posted by Shalan

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I recommend taking a look at the "dungeons are too linear thread", not to redirect you or anything but you can see a great number of lazy mofo's who don't like dungeons that are not straight lines. Our playerbase has grown unbelievably lazy, and yes, the raiders are lazy too (and unimaginative). Alot of players want the game to be simplified and easy to rush through for immediate grinding. And each time someone brings that up, some high level raider waltzes in saying "People are gonna rush the dungeon anyway once they figure out the fastest paths" or "Not everyone has time for complex dungeons" or "It'd be too complicated for casual players like me" the hypocrisy makes me wanna puke. Since when did high-end players speak for casual ones? And when did casual players become uninterested in immersive MMO gameplay?

So heres what I have for people like that.

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...07/941/f92.gif

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

I'm also unsure why AV is considered a toxic zone

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Probably the poison gas.

Anyway, AV gets a bad rap because it has a bunch of annoying mobs and boss mechanics that are all concentrated in a single dungeon. Locksmith requires everyone to participate, Coincounter is baby's first no-AoE-marker boss, and Mistress combines all the personal responsibility of boss 1 with the positional awareness of boss 2.

All the trash mobs come in groups - big groups - and everybody is too lazy, timid or ignorant to AoE.

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Originally Posted by Almalexia

Probably the poison gas.

Anyway, AV gets a bad rap because it has a bunch of annoying mobs and boss mechanics that are all concentrated in a single dungeon. Locksmith requires everyone to participate, Coincounter is baby's first no-AoE-marker boss, and Mistress combines all the personal responsibility of boss 1 with the positional awareness of boss 2.

All the trash mobs come in groups - big groups - and everybody is too lazy, timid or ignorant to AoE.

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A lot of people also get super lazy in that place. Like REALLY lazy.
I can tank AV no problem but there are people who like to go running off in random directions and pull everything under the sun that myself and the healer weren't prepared for.
I kind of wish they'd make AV go up to 50 with the item sync like they did for the Library...
I feel like that would make a lot of people less...scared to run it.
I won't leave an AV party unless it's like...20 minutes in and can't get past the first room.

Went into Sastasha today on my 59 SCH (because I'm lazy enough to rather do 4 Sastasha runs instead of one Library), screen lit up, 3 green leafs around me.
Once the barrier fell, I cast protect....and the tank turned around and ran out, one dps followed. The other dps is like "urgh, not this again" and leaves too.
I just stand there, dumbfounded.
Seriously, do they have to start pulling that bullshit THAT early? -.-
His highest level was 18.
18!
What the f*** is wrong with Sastasha when you are level 18?!

>.> This happened to my hubby when he was in Tam-Tara Deepcroft. He was trying to level up his alt's BLM but the tank just left before the even started. >.> I filled in for him, however I'm not the best of tanks. Somehow, we managed to get through without any major problems. lol X) Wish I was better at tank though, ;3;

I don't encourage it, I'm totally against it, but I do slightly understand why a high lvl tank would bail on a really low lvl dungeon.
It's boring, it's annoying (no useful skills yet) and the exp rewards are mediocre. But if the dungeon is just one level below the maximum the tank can possibly do, it drives me mad >.>

if you impose a harsh penalty only thing people will do is dc instead of abandoning making matters even worse.

I like how people feel self-entitled to queue and then leave if the roulette does not fit their liking, even if that means leaving three-to-seven more people to twiddle their thumbs while they wait for a non-DPS replacement. "A lot of people do that" ain't really an excuse for that. Unless you are sure there's an immediate replacement (stuff like tanks in void ark, but that's a whole another can of worms), it's nothing short of a selfish attitude. No action from the devs will ever change that: more punishing to leave would just make it worse, and more rewarding to clear would make it like people would abandon other dungeons anyway.

People are lazy, they expect everything in return for 0 effort.

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Originally Posted by Yurihyuga

if you impose a harsh penalty only thing people will do is dc instead of abandoning making matters even worse.

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Yea that's what I'm used to seeing, waiting 20mins for a dungeon on dps then soon as we start the tank pulls first mob and just logs off -_- and hold us hostage until the 5 mins is up then everyone drops like flies then I wait another 20 mins to que...I don't really get it

How about leaving preemptively removes 10% of all your money u have at given time?

I get it, it's an mmorpg and you play with others online.... But my fun shouldn't HAVE to be at the mercy of others. I have 2 hours of play time before work, stuck in que for 15 minutes, dungeon ques, tank leaves, replenish ranks, 5 minutes of waiting then healer leaves, tank ques in progress and leaves immediately, DPS leaves, I leave, stuck in que for another 15, dungeon ques, party member forced to withdraw after time expires, an additional 5 minutes in que, finally get in, a whopping 40 minutes full of wipes, motion to abandon passes. Now I have to get ready for work. Fun!

Personnaly, I enjoy having low lvl dungeon (tamtara comes out pretty frequently). It's an easy ride, gaves a lot of xp upon completion and is pretty braindead to run through, especially as tank or healer.
However, I'll have to admit that I'm guilty of some dodging. Most frequent would be when I was leveling my tank and ended up getting Aurum Vale, not because I was afraid of the party, but because I was afraid of failing horribly (I have confidence issue with my tanking some times, more used to heal).
But sometimes, leaving can be for a lot of other reasons.
Just yesterday, for example, I queued for lvl 50 dungeon and end up in snowcloak... for the 5th day in a row. Was so tired to see it that I left while the ring wasn't even down.
But in the end, Karma punished me because my next queue put me in snowcloak again and I just dealt with it.

If I join were to join an expert dgn, I would expect everyone to know how to play their class properly. Meaning at least tanks tanking, healers healing and dps putting out at least 70% of what the class is capable of. Its called expert for a reason and not im coming in for free looks and tomes while I leech off of the other three roulette.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

I think making an additional penalty that banns someone from DF for 24hrs after the 5th duty abandon would curb most of it. Heck even a 12 hr DF ban would basically lock most people out of the game for the rest of the day.

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Psychological studies show that you are more likely to get the outcome you want by rewarding the behaviour you want vs punishing the behaviour you don't want. Perhaps the reward of the roulette is not sufficient for certain scenarios. It's difficult to say without the proper data (i.e. is this all in one particular dungeon, if so rewards may need increasing for that dungeon) etc.

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Originally Posted by konage

dps putting out at least 70% of what the class is capable of.

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Unfortunately, that is a tall order my friend. I consider myself lucky if I am paired with a DPS that puts out 70% of their total. I've rarely if ever been paired with one who does more than that, and much more often they are near 40-50.

I just have the problem of DPS and healers dropping out of DF window.

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Originally Posted by konage

dps

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As a WHM there are times when I can do as much or more dps than PUG DPS'.

Here's a thought... perhaps it'd be better to look over the 'bad' dungeons and find some way to make them not so bad. Rare pets, better gear, or more roulette rewards based on the time investment required on average. People as a whole react to positive reinforcement better than negative... and it's more effective when there are so many ways to subvert any negative consequences.