rip crafted accessories

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Originally Posted by karateorangutang

This was interesting. If it's alluding to changing the formula for tanks like the wording appears to be. Could they be looking at figuring VIT into the damage formula? It would be a boon for both PLD and DRK and would counter balance some of WAR's self heals like equilibrium and second wind. Just a thought.

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That's my best guess, yeah. Probably a 40/60 or 50/50 split between the two, something like that. I doubt they'd want the STR on the left side to go unused, so they'll leave it in the formula to some degree.

All of this sort of comes back around to the addition of materia to the tome/raid drop gear.

The crafted accessories are going to still be relevant simply because making materia is going to be much more important than ever before.
In fact, I think more high-level crafted crap will probably be made and sold than ever before. Melding raid gear will be a boon for crafters.
People will end up carrying two gear sets: The raider's blues and the crafted set for doing your dailies and whatnot.

When we think specifically about tanks, sure you won't be melding a full set of crafted accessories.
But you will slap some vit5s in all the open slots of your blue strength accessories gear. Or strength into your vit gear. (I hope we go back to having two slots...but that might be wishful thinking).
I think that's preferable to how it is now. Certainly cheaper/less prone to RNG.

Or the tank damage changes will make it so we don't need to worry about 2 stats anymore and this is all kinda moot. Who knows!

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I see people comparing this to enchanting and jewelcrafting in WoW, except those had sure ways of creating your desired gem/enchant (which means you don't have RNG aggravating levels of rarity, thus driving prices up). When you cut a talasite or cardinal ruby, you know exactly what type of gem you're getting. Likewise with enchants; there's no RNG involved in the potency of the enchant being used or the effect. Materia does not work like this. If anything, I'd say it'll be more expensive than enchanting and jewelcrafting. And it sucks when you're hovering around 2.3 million gil.

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Wow had a solution for the supply problem, what makes you assume SE doesn't? I bet you will be able to buy materia with old tomes or something like that. Lots of ways to solve it.

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Originally Posted by Cirdan-Faust

Wow had a solution for the supply problem, what makes you assume SE doesn't? I bet you will be able to buy materia with old tomes or something like that. Lots of ways to solve it.

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I don't think them capable of implementing something like that, since it sort of undermines the whole materia acquisition system.

Ideally they could create a new type of DoH crafter or a DoH sub-discipline (like Desynthesis) to create materia. Add a step-up method to get higher tier materia (say, 5 STR II can be converted into 1 STR III materia). It would help move equipment in the market boards, remove equipment from the game and create a supply of materia. I just don't see them doing it. I would love to be wrong on this, though.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I don't think them capable of implementing something like that, since it sort of undermines the whole materia acquisition system.

Ideally they could create a new type of DoH crafter or a DoH sub-discipline (like Desynthesis) to create materia. Add a step-up method to get higher tier materia (say, 5 STR II can be converted into 1 STR III materia). It would help move equipment in the market boards, remove equipment from the game and create a supply of materia. I just don't see them doing it. I would love to be wrong on this, though.

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Materia have been stated to be purchasable with Airship Exploration points.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Materia have been stated to be purchasable with Airship Exploration points.

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I remember them stating "materiaLs" but not materias.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

I remember them stating "materiaLs" but not materias.

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The Fan translation was fairly wonky, but Bayohne included it in his summary thread.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Q10: You mentioned that we could trade unwanted equipment we find for points, but how exactly will we be able to use these points?

A10: You’ll be able to use them on new flying mounts, materials necessary for new crafting recipes, red scrip materials, shards, materia, and more. You can also just desynthesize the equipment.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

The Fan translation was fairly wonky, but Bayohne included it in his summary thread.

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Oh nice I didn't read the whole official translation, so we'll be able to buy materias to NPCs with points, that's really nice.

no no NO!!!! I do NOT like this at all. I HATE overmelding. This game doesnt know what law of averages is. When 35% success rate equals 11 materia and 9% equals 79 materia. I looked so forward to raid and tome gear so I didnt have to suffer to overmelding...

the ONLY way this will ever be a good thing is if it says 35% and I can just throw 3 materia at it and get a guarentee success (12 for a 9% etc) then Id be fine at it.... overmeld is horridly rage agroing....

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Originally Posted by Thaeros

no no NO!!!! I do NOT like this at all. I HATE overmelding. This game doesnt know what law of averages is. When 35% success rate equals 11 materia and 9% equals 79 materia. I looked so forward to raid and tome gear so I didnt have to suffer to overmelding...

the ONLY way this will ever be a good thing is if it says 35% and I can just throw 3 materia at it and get a guarentee success (12 for a 9% etc) then Id be fine at it.... overmeld is horridly rage agroing....

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% is RNG, it's not supposed to mean "Oh I'll have to put this number of materias in order to get my meld done".

Pink gear from the airship exploration can be spiritbonded and assimilated to get free materia. Or you can just buy the materia, assuming it's cheap. If the Hard missions are actually challenging this change will solve 3 problems at once:

1. Crafters will be useful for end game because they can meld gear for more people than just tanks.
2. People won't run out of things to do because on top of running the raids there will also be raid preparation to do as a group.
3. More customization options.

Excellent! It worked well in WoW so I don't see why it wouldn't work here.

I was under the impression that they'd originally had lower ilvl accessories because they *didn't* like how pentamelds worked in Coil.

What they *should* have done was eliminate forbidden melds entirely. That'd have fixed that easy.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

That's my best guess, yeah. Probably a 40/60 or 50/50 split between the two, something like that. I doubt they'd want the STR on the left side to go unused, so they'll leave it in the formula to some degree.

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Or they'll just stop putting STR on left side, and it'll do nothing, like the DEX on low level left side does nothing for some of the DoW classes that use it.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Pink gear from the airship exploration can be spiritbonded and assimilated to get free materia. Or you can just buy the materia, assuming it's cheap. If the Hard missions are actually challenging this change will solve 3 problems at once:

1. Crafters will be useful for end game because they can meld gear for more people than just tanks.
2. People won't run out of things to do because on top of running the raids there will also be raid preparation to do as a group.
3. More customization options.

Excellent! It worked well in WoW so I don't see why it wouldn't work here.

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I wouldn't say it worked well in WoW.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Or they'll just stop putting STR on left side, and it'll do nothing, like the DEX on low level left side does nothing for some of the DoW classes that use it.

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They might, but it's simpler not to have to change anything *except* the damage formula. They more than likely already gear made for 3.2 (and perhaps beyond), and having STR on the gear in the patch that they made STR no longer do anything for tanks would be a little weird. It depends on how long these changes have been in the pipeline, though--it's possible this has been planned for quite some time and we're only just now hearing about it, though I personally doubt that. I have a feeling they're doing this in response to how Savage worked out.

I think we're more likely to see adjustments that require the fewest amount of changes to things overall, both because changes disrupt things already in the development pipeline and because this seems to be a reactionary change rather than a planned one.

Deleting a stat from a whole gear category isn't really difficult and require very little work. Look at when NIN came out, they added DEX to every single piece of MNK gear.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

Deleting a stat from a whole gear category isn't really difficult and require very little work. Look at when NIN came out, they added DEX to every single piece of MNK gear.

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They had been working on NIN for a lot longer than they were working on these changes, though, from what I understand--there were hints even during the Beta that it was in the pipeline and we still didn't get it until the game had been out over a year. If they've been working on these things for awhile, I would be less surprised by itemization changes, though. It's possible they thought the STR/VIT thing was issue before HW launched, but the expansion was too far along by 2.4/2.5 for them to make any major shifts (especially since they had already delayed it once) to 3.0/3.1, and if that's the case, then the scope of these changes might be a bit larger.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

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It still doesn't require very much work. They don't have to delete the STR from old gear because it wouldn't do anything to tanks anymore anyway, they'd just have to make new gear from 3.2 without STR and if they already created all the items before taking this decision, they could just remove it and I'm pretty sure that it would only take a few minutes considering the low number of different sets we get each new patch.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Pink gear from the airship exploration can be spiritbonded and assimilated to get free materia. Or you can just buy the materia, assuming it's cheap. If the Hard missions are actually challenging this change will solve 3 problems at once:

1. Crafters will be useful for end game because they can meld gear for more people than just tanks.
2. People won't run out of things to do because on top of running the raids there will also be raid preparation to do as a group.
3. More customization options.

Excellent! It worked well in WoW so I don't see why it wouldn't work here.

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A few things. First the aetherial gear will rapidly crush any demand for crafted gear and without being able to main meld stat tank accessories, the crafted gear market will be even less desirable. There is literally no reason for me to buy any crafted accessories if I can't meld main stat. If I can get aetherial drops from exploration, that's where my spiritbonding gear and accessories will come from.

A good thing is that this will greatly increase the supply of level 5 materias depending on the conversion ratings.

The abysmal weights of secondary stats means that there won't be very much "customization" going on. The bonus for meldable raid gear however is that you can meld accuracy to meet caps. Outside of that it will ultimately be kind of meh.

I hardly consider spirtbonding "something to do" in this game. It's PAINFULLY boring.

If hard missions are actually challenging, 80% of the community either won't be good enough to do them or will whine until it is nerfed.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

It still doesn't require very much work.

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I don't think it's a huge undertaking, no but there's very little that can be gained from doing it when they can just keep doing things the way they have been and simply change the formula to factor in both. Changing the damage formula to a split between the two stats covers everything they need to do by itself, without needing to change future gear or adjust any gear that's already done but not implemented yet. Whereas if they go VIT, it's a little more complicated. Not hugely so, but it's still work that doesn't necessarily need to be done. Since what they've said so far mentions only altering the damage calculation, I'm working under the assumption that this is all they're going to do for now.

We'll probably learn more in the Live Letters we get between the launch of 3.1 and 3.2. I mean, I never expected them to go back and add DEX to all the MNK gear either for NIN, so they've surprised me before (I expected them to be STR and share Striking gear going forward). But there was a relatively strong "flavor" argument in favor of NIN being on the previous MNK sets (and not on BRD sets--could you see NIN running around in the BRD CT/ST gear? >.>), and a good itemization reason for them to be DEX (so that someone else wanted Aiming accessories). I just don't see a compelling need for VIT to be the sole tank stat in the future.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

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-You will be able to meld main stat for the first materia on accessories.
-The good aetherial gear will likely only be from the hard (FC ship only) voyages, it will likely several hours just to get a good piece, let alone one in the slot you want. Crafted gear can become the mythic "catch-up gear" until you get something better. Then you can turn it into materia.
-You don't have to spiritbond is an open world party. Just put a couple pieces of level appropriate spiritbond pieces when you do daily/weekly faceroll content.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

I don't think it's a huge undertaking, no but there's very little that can be gained from doing it when they can just keep doing things the way they have been and simply change the formula to factor in both.

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Unless they make STR completely 100% worthless for tanks, fending accessories will continue to be garbage.

They don't like that.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

-You will be able to meld main stat for the first materia on accessories.
-The good aetherial gear will likely only be from the hard (FC ship only) voyages, it will likely several hours just to get a good piece, let alone one in the slot you want. Crafted gear can become the mythic "catch-up gear" until you get something better. Then you can turn it into materia.
-You don't have to spiritbond is an open world party. Just put a couple pieces of level appropriate spiritbond pieces when you do daily/weekly faceroll content.

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One main stat materia isn't enough to make an overall difference in the necessity of tanking bi-stat accessories to maintain any demand for them unless the stat changes to tank output significantly change the way vit works. If you do see tanks with these pieces they will likely have even less hp now than before but the realistic assessment is that they will bypass them completely.

The second point is assumption, the gear will likely be available to all just at lower rates than the hard mode. Considering squares stance on gear and casual play this is the likely scenario. But for the interest of discussion lets say it's not, there would still be zero need for me to spend literally millions of gil on a crafted piece to spiritbond when the materia itself will likely be less costly to just buy and comparable or better gear can be obtained with just grinding (along with gil, materia, and other stuff). A casual player is priced out of the crafted gear market by a huge margin already. On top of this raiders will be needing to meld raid gear now, along with buying potions and expensive foods. Demand is literally willingness and ability to buy, with other expenses increasing by the nature of economics the demand for crafted gear will decrease further. It's inevitable unless there is a significant change to either the way certain stats work, a lowering in price of crafted gear (increasing mat availability/cost/time) or just a general increase of stat weights on secondaries across the board.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

It's inevitable unless there is a significant change to either the way certain stats work, a lowering in price of crafted gear (increasing mat availability/cost/time) or just a general increase of stat weights on secondaries across the board.

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They stated that the airship ventures would drop red scrip items, that alone will be a huge boost until 3.2. Hopefully they will revert to the battle jobs obtaining the hard to get mats for crafted battle gear. We had tome items throughout 2.x for part of the recipes for top level gear, along with SCoB drops/desynths in 2.4.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Unless they make STR completely 100% worthless for tanks, fending accessories will continue to be garbage.

They don't like that.

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That's arguable.

Currently at i210 going from i210 Vit Accessories to i210 Str Accessories is a gain of ~30% ap at the cost of ~25% max hp. (i150 Str/Vit Pentamelds are in comparison +20% AP for -10% hp)
With a 75%/25% Str/Vit split, it would shift to a gain of ~13% AP for 25% max hp.
With a 60%/40% split, it would shift to a gain of ~4.8% AP for 25% max hp.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

That's arguable.

Currently at i210 going from i210 Vit Accessories to i210 Str Accessories is a gain of ~30% ap at the cost of ~25% max hp. (i150 Str/Vit Pentamelds are in comparison +20% AP for -10% hp)
With a 75%/25% Str/Vit split, it would shift to a gain of ~13% AP for 25% max hp.
With a 60%/40% split, it would shift to a gain of ~4.8% AP for 25% max hp.

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Well Pentamelds are pretty powerful. They offer both stats at a 25% penalty.

So its like having an item with either 60 vitality, or 60 strength. OR 48 Strength AND Vitality.

I would be fine with it, if there was gear like that.


I think Fending gear should be:

(75%) Vitality same amount as strength.
(75%) Strength of a normal piece of gear.
1 Secondary Stat

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

That's arguable.

Currently at i210 going from i210 Vit Accessories to i210 Str Accessories is a gain of ~30% ap at the cost of ~25% max hp. (i150 Str/Vit Pentamelds are in comparison +20% AP for -10% hp)
With a 75%/25% Str/Vit split, it would shift to a gain of ~13% AP for 25% max hp.
With a 60%/40% split, it would shift to a gain of ~4.8% AP for 25% max hp.

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And with it all dumped in VIT, they can safely assume all tanks at the appropriate gear level *will* have a certain amount of HP, and just slam you to within an inch of your life, making that 25% max HP missing all the more bad.

In the end, switching over to 100% VIT makes balance for them *easier*.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

And with it all dumped in VIT, they can safely assume all tanks at the appropriate gear level *will* have a certain amount of HP, and just slam you to within an inch of your life, making that 25% max HP missing all the more bad.

In the end, switching over to 100% VIT makes balance for them *easier*.

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Easier to balance maybe - but it also creates a problem where in if Tank damage doesn't continue grow at an appreciable rate in comparison with DPS damage we will eventually start to see enmity disparities; disparities that will continue to grow without squashing stats down or reworking the formula (again). Also without significant change the gap between Paladin and other two tanks will remain just as wide - or worse widen. Even if they simplify the Tank damage formula and all the abilities that scale off Attack Power/Damage by making Tank Attack Power/Damage scale off of VIT primary stat instead of STR the calculation will eventually need to yield diminishing returns or Tanks will simply replace DPS roles - diminishing returns on your primary stat further complicates & hinders Tank gear itemization effectiveness and limits their encounter design going forward.

You're assuming that they're not going to increase vitality on new equipment.

Or increase threat modifiers.

Everything doesn't have to be based around "dps" with tank balance, that's just the current meta and a lot of people are fighting tooth and nail at the potential to it not being such anymore.

Edit, to below:

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Originally Posted by Dhex

Fairly certain a large number of Tank skills on all three scale directly with Attack Power. So regardless of how that number is calculated VIT STR or otherwise that stat will need to grow. If its STR it needs to be included in our itemization if its shifted all onto VIT they will have to include diminishing returns towards HP growth or Damage growth.

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Again, not necessarily.

Everyone's looking at this the wrong way.

it doesn't matter if the tank has 50k HP, mob damage is going to be based around tank HP levels.

I don't feel sorry for the DPS/heals that rip hate or pull for me and get smashed because the mob hits them within an inch of their life on one hit because they have a third the HP I have though.

Hit daily post cap. That thing really needs to go.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

You're assuming that they're not going to increase vitality on new equipment.

Or increase threat modifiers.

Everything doesn't have to be based around "dps" with tank balance, that's just the current meta and a lot of people are fighting tooth and nail at the potential to it not being such anymore.

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Fairly certain a large number of Tank skills on all three scale directly with Attack Power. So regardless of how that number is calculated VIT STR or otherwise that stat will need to grow. If its STR it needs to be included in our itemization if its shifted all onto VIT they will have to include diminishing returns towards HP growth or Damage growth.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Unless they make STR completely 100% worthless for tanks, fending accessories will continue to be garbage.

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If VIT provides more of a benefit to Attack Power than STR does, Fending Accessories will always be better for AP than Slaying. If they go this route, I anticipate something like a 40% STR/60% VIT contribution to AP--enough that the Strength on left side gear isn't wasted (and forgoing the need for itemization changes in the future) but not enough that Slaying accessories would provide more AP.

If secondaries contributed more to overall damage, you might see some cases with a split like that where a particular Slaying accessory was better than a Fending one with Parry/Accuracy, but given their sad state, that's not likely to happen.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

And with it all dumped in VIT, they can safely assume all tanks at the appropriate gear level *will* have a certain amount of HP, and just slam you to within an inch of your life, making that 25% max HP missing all the more bad.

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They can already do this without needing to modify damage calculations at all. Take the assigned minimum item level for the content, set tankbuster damage high enough that full Fending, cooldowns, and healer mitigation are necessary to survive them. This is largely how raids worked in ARR--full Slaying wasn't generally a thing in Binding Coil except once left side VIT started to outpace the tank busters (and at that point, it's not really an issue, which is why I imagine they didn't do too much to change things during ARR).

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Originally Posted by Alahra

full Slaying wasn't generally a thing in Binding Coil except once left side VIT started to outpace the tank busters

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I don't think full slaying ever became a thing until FCoB. Full slaying in first coil would have only been 35-40 dps, there was only 9 points of str on each. Second coil was predominantly solo tanked, you didn't even bring a second tank except to t7 (and even this could be solo tanked), the other turns you had an extra dps. Then finally in final coil we had interesting 2-tank mechanics, and crafted accessories, along with slaying, had impactful amounts of str to where stacking actually had some noticeable effect. And now we have 44 str on each one, it's a huge difference, no wonder the community has leaned that way.

Re-reading their post about the changes, they say they don't want to burden placed on a particular role, that's exactly what Alex savage has been, a burden on both tanks and healers. Not just skill wise but investment in crafted accessories. Either spending hours and hours gathering and crafting and spiritbonding, or millions of gil. DPS didn't have to do that for "optimal" performance.

To the OPs point - I don't think crafted accessories will be RIP. They are going to release higher than usual item level at the same time as raid gear (it sounds like), this is great for progression gearing and having more gear choices in general IMO.

Frankly, I see this as a good thing. People shouldn't have to feel, in the future turns of Alexander, like they have to spend millions of gil to do well. I also think Alex Savage needs a rework in 3.2, but that's another topic.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I don't think full slaying ever became a thing until FCoB.

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True, before that, it was pentamelds more specifically. I did occasionally see some full STR during the SCOB era, but it was pretty rare.

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Originally Posted by Dhex

Fairly certain a large number of Tank skills on all three scale directly with Attack Power. So regardless of how that number is calculated VIT STR or otherwise that stat will need to grow. If its STR it needs to be included in our itemization if its shifted all onto VIT they will have to include diminishing returns towards HP growth or Damage growth.

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You could leave tank strength exactly where it is now forever and ensure that tanks never lose threat even if DPS gain a trillion main stat points by changing enmity modifiers your combo attacks.

So, no, stats don't 'always have to grow' to keep enmity generation in check. Though it is silly that increasing stats would be something anyone in a vertical MMO is concerned about.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

True, before that, it was pentamelds more specifically. I did occasionally see some full STR during the SCOB era, but it was pretty rare.

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Yeah, crafted rose up in 2.0 with Gryphonskin, then Ruby/Topaz came along for SCoB. Full STR accessories were fine for T6 MT/OT and T7 OT, but everything else you'd be better off using Ruby/Topaz. FCoB you could do T10/T11 OT in STR but T12/T13 required crafted until overgeared due to how hard things hit in those.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Yeah, crafted rose up in 2.0 with Gryphonskin, then Ruby/Topaz came along for SCoB. Full STR accessories were fine for T6 MT/OT and T7 OT, but everything else you'd be better off using Ruby/Topaz. FCoB you could do T10/T11 OT in STR but T12/T13 required crafted until overgeared due to how hard things hit in those.

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I was trying to think about the timeline but I don't specifically recall, it seems like the i90 and i110 crafted accessories came out shortly after the initial release of scob and fcob, or am I mistaken? I remember we had left side crafted but it seemed like accessories came later. I'm not sure exactly.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I was trying to think about the timeline but I don't specifically recall, it seems like the i90 and i110 crafted accessories came out shortly after the initial release of scob and fcob, or am I mistaken? I remember we had left side crafted but it seemed like accessories came later. I'm not sure exactly.

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SCoB was released in 2.2 with 2.3 adding i90 Crafted Accessories. FCoB was in 2.4 followed by i110 Accessories in 2.5.

Yea, Gryphonskin was largely popular during the start of SCoB, Ruby/Topaz popular in 2.3 all the way to 2.5 since most people weren't buying Platinum. Crafted/STR was also great for T9 OT if you weren't doing the solo tank strat.

I highly doubt they'd make a split.

We'd be the only role to have one, and we'd still be taking gear from dps.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

we'd still be taking gear from dps.

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Not if the split is done properly. Essentially, if it's set up with the proper ratio, the STR on the left side would contribute to damage, but since VIT would have a higher contribution, tanks wouldn't want Slaying accessories. So there'd be no taking gear from DPS. It's simply the math of it. For example (with artificial numbers), if 100 VIT gives 75 attack power and 100 STR gives 25 attack power, there would be no need for Slaying accessories (except maybe in rare corner cases where someone's VIT accessories are so low level that a random Slaying drop ends up providing more DPS).

As for being "the only role," going full VIT makes tanks "the only role" to need only one primary stat, too. Tanks are currently "the only role" that even wants their non-assigned primary stat beyond what's on left-side as it is. Since they're already unique in some regard, they're likely going to end up that way in however they choose to handle this.