gender equality and social disorder

I think they should free up the glamour all-around. Even as far as simply being able to wear the elezen hempen undershit on my AuRa

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Originally Posted by Lexia

Have you seen a female roegadyn in a dress? EHHHH! Just imagine if it was on a male.

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What's wrong with us FemRoes in dresses?

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Originally Posted by Seryne

What's wrong with us FemRoes in dresses?

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nothing at all.

Just as an fyi, SE has stated that they reason why they haven't done this yet is because going from "Female model -> Male Model" is apparently much harder than "Male model -> female model", not because of societal expectations.

Ideally I'd prefer they'd make every gear set unisex with as little changes as possible. I'm still annoyed that I can't wear a coatee without it showing off cleavage or wear DRG AF without having a massive gut window to be stabbed, I'd hope that the same issue doesn't occur where the spring dress suddenly becomes the spring robe if a dude puts it on.

I'd like altered versions of items. Females get both Thavarian chest pieces. The male one is altered for females. I'd like bunny ears. Whats stopping me from putting them on!? I think there is only one or two male items in the game while females have many.

A few comments after reading through everything.

- To the people who are making jokes or witty suggestions about trans people, please realise that you are missing the point. Many trans (transgender/transsexual) people are already amply catered for with the existence of a gender selection during character creation and the fantasia system; making fun of them here isn't relevant or kind. There are two main factions arguing for more equality in glamour choices for male characters, those who want to dress male characters up in feminine outfits (transvestism, it's not the same thing) either because they like to challenge gender norms or just think it looks good, and then there are those who want more glamour options for men and support adapting the female-locked outfits into more masculine equivalents to even the balance. I think most of us will honestly take either option, so long as something is done to redress the balance. There's no need to question anyone's gender identity in the process, thanks!

- The counter that it's only clothing and isn't important doesn't add up. It's not only clothing to Square-Enix; they go as far as releasing catalogues in Japan showing off glamours as one of the game's selling points. It's not fair that half of the players have their access to this aspect of the game limited for no real reason.

- The argument that Japan is socially conservative than whichever country the original poster is from, which means that guys have to have a smaller selection of clothing to choose from, is not fair. They allowed same-sex marriage, which is considerably more contentious as a social issue than a guy simply wearing a pair of bunny ears. There are already several progressive and - dare I say - kinky outfits that can be worn by male characters intent on sporting a more sexualised look, and nothing is stopping anyone stripping down to their underwear and dancing in the middle of Limsa Lominsa whenever they want to. It's true that people all over the world are still nervous about people who defy accepted gender norms but that ship sailed a long time ago in FFXIV.

- The excuse that it's harder to fit feminine outfits on a male model is simply nonsense. I will accept that there is quite a lot of work involved for many outfits and they've rationalised that it's not a good use of their time to adapt them, but there are several examples which directly invalidate this argument on a wider scale. They already fit one 'female' outfit on a male character as has been mentioned yet it's still unavailable to players. There are many outfits which would fit almost identically on a male model, needing at most the removal of a piece of fabric here and there rather than anything new adding. And why on earth are several hats gender-locked? Simply unlocking the completely unnecessary gender-locked outfits would go a long way towards fixing the imbalance without any real effort. I don't even care if they clip.

Ultimately, I play a male character by choice and love the experience. I don't want to change my character's gender and I'm very happy with the quality of the clothing options available to me. However, unless they're going to start warning people on the character selection screen or game box that choosing a male character will be disadvantageous to the player later on when they find their gear options more limited, it's ridiculous to see the same pattern with 'female' and 'unisex' versions of new outfits repeated over and over. The person who observed that the 'male' versions are being opened up to women just because someone on the design team thinks girls in suits look cute is absolutely right.

Don't compare fetishes to things like marriage OP, that's extremely stupid.

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Originally Posted by Seryne

What's wrong with us FemRoes in dresses?

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I find FemRoes in dress is really have elegant look IMO. :)

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Originally Posted by Ghasto

Don't compare fetishes to things like marriage OP, that's extremely stupid.

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So.... you mean it's more appropriate to discriminate due to gender than due to sexuality? Neither is okay. In my opinion, wanting to wear skirts isn't neccessarily transvestitism, same as wanting to wear trousers as a woman isn't neccessarily transvestitism. It can be a simple matter of liking the aesthetics or (IRL) because it's comfortable, or any other reason you like.
The idea that it's okay for a woman to wear trousers but not okay for a man to wear skirts is based on gender discrimination. Stemming from the notion that 'female' is weaker than 'male' and that the male is something to strive for, of course, but still gender discrimination.

(And yes, I know you didn't say that, but it's what can be read from what you said ^^; )

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Originally Posted by Seryne

What's wrong with us FemRoes in dresses?

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*cough* Nothing as such, but... I have a FemRoe alt, and when I tried on the Valentoine top... she looks like a bad crossdresser O.o I'll see if I can remember to get a screenshot and post it. (Of course, that I chose to give her 100 muscle tone and lower-than-50 bust size due to realism doesn't really help...)

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Originally Posted by Noxifer

*cough* Nothing as such, but... I have a FemRoe alt, and when I tried on the Valentoine top... she looks like a bad crossdresser O.o I'll see if I can remember to get a screenshot and post it. (Of course, that I chose to give her 100 muscle tone and lower-than-50 bust size due to realism doesn't really help...)

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You mean this dress?
http://i.imgur.com/k2RlSTz.jpg

I don't think it looks too bad. Mind you I'm max muscle, bust, and height. The only dress I think looks bad on FemRoes is the bridesmaid one. The thing is though I think that bridesmaid dress looks horrible on everyone.

Let Rhonda Rousy fight a man, the equality will come soon after.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I find it funny that I find a post like this in every thread basically. Its like everything's been discussed and the world is just jaded, huh? lol

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But just look at how much he/she was contributing the the conversation! GOSH! /s

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Originally Posted by Colorful

Because males crossdressing isn't the standard in real life, nor is it going to be a thing anytime soon. It's heavily looked down upon in a lot of places. It's considered to be a joke, like one would dare their friend to go out in public wearing a dress to embarrass them and take photos. That's likely why.

Also what does this have to do with a social disorder?

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1word, kabuki

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Stemming from the notion that 'female' is weaker than 'male' and that the male is something to strive for, of course, but still gender discrimination.

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Stemming from the notion that men need to be strictly reigned in (very little freedom of expression) or they are worthless as humans, while women can be free and still have worth. This doesn't imply male superiority.

Edit: I really don't get how people can say that women having more options for clothing is actual oppression of women, or a sign society is on the side of men. Only in bizarro world.

The way I always view it, clothing is not sex locked, in any way of life. As I recall even high heels were worn by men years ago which has lately shifted in social acceptance to just women. Some articles carry that but that doesn't mean it should stop you from wearing it. If you want to wear a dress, you should feel free to but just know society considers that ill to the normal standard and will gaze. If you wanna run around in a dress in this game, I say we should be allowed. It is about having fun and besides if your worried about gender or other such issues, well....the same sex marriage (which I applaud) you kinda ruined yourself there.

Male characters have male only outfits as well, ones that can't really be allowed for females because they involve being shirtless.

This seems like a tumblr post almost..

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Originally Posted by Wobble

1word, kabuki

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Eh..Kabuki is a play/drama, and done during the play..people don't walk around like that, go to school or work like that (I mean as in, someones job who isn't a Kabuki actor) unless I am wrong and Japanese business men go to the office in full Kabuki attire?

That is like saying just because something is done in the movies it's accepted by most people everywhere and is a norm.

Personally I have no problem with anyone wearing whatever they want, it's their life...their body. Doesn't bother me in the slightest.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Male characters have male only outfits as well, ones that can't really be allowed for females because they involve being shirtless.

This seems like a tumblr post almost..

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I think the point people are trying to make is that, if you sum up all the individual articles of clothing that have "♀ only" on them and sum up all the individual articles of clothing that have "♂ only" on them, you'll find the results highly skewed towards the female gender.

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Originally Posted by Wobble

1word, kabuki

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Because woman's kabuki got banned in year 1629. It was seen as too erotic.

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The shogunate was never partial to kabuki and all the mischief it brought, particularly the variety of the social classes which mixed at kabuki performances. Women’s kabuki, called onna-kabuki, was banned in 1629 for being too erotic.[5] Following onna-kabuki, young boys performed in wakashū-kabuki, but since they too were eligible for prostitution, the shogun government soon banned wakashū-kabuki as well.[5] Kabuki switched to adult male actors, called yaro-kabuki, in the mid-1600s.[6] Male actors played both female and male characters. The theatre remained popular, and remained a focus of urban lifestyle until modern times. Although kabuki was performed all over ukiyo and other portions for the country, the Nakamura-za, Ichimura-za and Kawarazaki-za theatres became the top theatres in ukiyo, where some of the most successful kabuki performances were and still are held.[3]

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabuki

If they made a few adjustments for the lack of boobs on the character models, guys could wear whatever they want.
I mean like, girls wearing the guys clothes is easier to program to the character models. They just stretch the shirt model over the girl wireframe. I imagine this is easier than doing the opposite to the guys wireframe.

I kind of think that since the guy's character models don't have boobs, it makes it harder to "fit" the dress on them.
I'm sure it could be done, but yea, probably the programmers just looking to save time. It's easier to fit the guys clothing on the girls cause it can just stretch.

So, probably no prejudice going on here. Just them trying to save time so they can focus on other stuff. If people wanted them to do it a lot, they probably would.

If someone knows more about programming and wants to add more or even tell me if I'm wrong, please do.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...86b630c951.jpg

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

I have no problem with letting male characters wear whatever they want, but one has to consider XIV's home market. What the Japanese view on gender identities is and how hard a stance they take on the subject. That's pretty much the long and short of it.

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actually we are experiencing some serious Gender identity disorder
we used to be Patrilineality hierarchy
but the 90s and 2000 generation starting to show something different
Herbivore men becoming an increasing trend
and 男の娘(sorry english not my first language) has become so much a hit now in our nation


but i would love to see male dressing female outfit:p
http://www.crazysunshine.com/ffxiv/2...ust/hildi1.png

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Originally Posted by SchalaZeal

Stemming from the notion that men need to be strictly reigned in (very little freedom of expression) or they are worthless as humans, while women can be free and still have worth. This doesn't imply male superiority.

Edit: I really don't get how people can say that women having more options for clothing is actual oppression of women, or a sign society is on the side of men. Only in bizarro world.

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According to certain parts of the internet and a small, yet loud, amount of nutcases, yes!

Shame on me for being born with a certain set of genitals!

Excuse me while I go oppress women by hitting on other men.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Male characters have male only outfits as well, ones that can't really be allowed for females because they involve being shirtless.

This seems like a tumblr post almost..

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Tumblr eventually gets into any online public forum. There's really no vaccination for it or preventive measures just yet.

me I like to play my gender but i also like the look of gear on the female form so...
my solution to this is my character is male and my retainers are all female

https://igcdn-photos-a-a.akamaihd.ne...07745577_n.jpg

mind you it does kinda suck that all the female gear (not that i would want to wear it) is all locked to gender but all the male gear is unisex (barring the starter gear).
I mean if you are going to gender lock the female set of gear they could at least to the same to the male set too.

If guys want to dress like girls on the internet be my guest. Just don't get mad when I think you're just as 12 year old kid who thinks he's the funniest shit since "Rick Roll" was a thing.

Also, anyone else miss the good old days when "Fantasy" games had nothing to do with real life drama all the time? Use to be I'd play games to get away from this kind of stuff, now I can't even do that without people losing it over every little damn thing. /sigh

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Originally Posted by AdventZero

If guys want to dress like girls on the internet be my guest. Just don't get mad when I think you're just as 12 year old kid who thinks he's the funniest shit since "Rick Roll" was a thing.

Also, anyone else miss the good old days when "Fantasy" games had nothing to do with real life drama all the time? Use to be I'd play games to get away from this kind of stuff, now I can't even do that without people losing it over every little damn thing. /sigh

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Agreed lol

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Originally Posted by AdventZero

If guys want to dress like girls on the internet be my guest. Just don't get mad when I think you're just as 12 year old kid who thinks he's the funniest shit since "Rick Roll" was a thing.

Also, anyone else miss the good old days when "Fantasy" games had nothing to do with real life drama all the time? Use to be I'd play games to get away from this kind of stuff, now I can't even do that without people losing it over every little damn thing. /sigh

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It started with cartoons before it inevitably crept its way into video games, especially when gaming was no longer a thing for nerds.

Not much you can do about it really because some people aren't quite willing to leave the real world behind and are compelled to bring it with them into the virtual world.

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Originally Posted by AdventZero

If guys want to dress like girls on the internet be my guest. Just don't get mad when I think you're just as 12 year old kid who thinks he's the funniest shit since "Rick Roll" was a thing.

Also, anyone else miss the good old days when "Fantasy" games had nothing to do with real life drama all the time? Use to be I'd play games to get away from this kind of stuff, now I can't even do that without people losing it over every little damn thing. /sigh

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Yep..you're not alone in that one. I really miss the old days...

It really does seem worse in the games now..LOL sad, if you think about it..really.

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Originally Posted by Enthy

They should make male versions of gear that is currently female gender locked. Like how Coatee sets look different based on weather a male or female equips it. Wedding gowns and spring dresses could look more like frilly trench coats on men, then they could equip a long skirt making it into a dress.

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This has to be one of the best suggestions I've seen to-date in threads like this (which I have wasted too much time on thanks to insensitive, brash, and *phobic jerks).

They already do this with "unisex" armor. Coats that bare a little chest for male characters bare a LOT more when breasts are involved, and thus have to have some kind of skimpy covering because "nipples are bad mmkay"? Why not do this for female-locked armor, just the opposite direction. Turn thigh-highs into slacks, or chaps, or something! Anything!

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Originally Posted by Roegadyn_Bear

Not much you can do about it really because some people aren't quite willing to leave the real world behind and are compelled to bring it with them into the virtual world.

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Yeah, what's with people trying to see themselves, their lifestyles, and their ideals represented in a format that largely even ignores their existence? Dragons are ruining everything these days.

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Originally Posted by Serilda

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While I largely agree, I think it'd much be easier to drop the notion of transvestism, as that's probably where the comparison to transgender people comes from.

And lmao, I agree that the "fitting feminine outfits on male models is hard" is likely nonsense, but that's just their main reasoning.

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Originally Posted by SchalaZeal

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Okay, it's a fairly simple concept, Women have the freedom to either conform to gender roles (Which is seen as weak by society) or emulate men (Which are seen by strong by society), men lack this option and are given one option "be men", because a man shouldn't lower himself to more "womanly" things (according to society as is, anyways). This is part of concepts that feminists have pointed out like toxic masculinity (Where men have to be men! If they wear 'women's' clothes they're weak) and the concept that masculinity is seen as desirable, but not femininity (Hence why one is unisex, but not the other)... Now there's plenty of further discussion and talk about the various concepts, but that's a base level description of it. There's a lot to discuss with regards to societal concepts of gender and how they interact with each other.

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Originally Posted by Cherie

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I feel you there, but I don't really get how it'd be harder, I mean, they'd basically just do the same thing but with a "flat" model instead of a "boob" model or whatever. But hey I don't know much about it, but I'm sure it's possible.

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Originally Posted by Roegadyn_Bear

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Try actually reading some of the feminist theories that have been evolving and going on since the 40s (At least in a mainstream sense)... But nah, it's just "nutcases" obviously. You're being incredibly shallow and defensive over a lot of well discussed social theories on gender.

Tumblr has a lot of people, like neo nazis too you know. It's how the social media platform is built, due to the way to refine and essentially ignore anyone you don't feel like interacting with. Trying to use it as a scapegoat when you mean "people talking about feminism" is silly due to the sites' structure.

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Originally Posted by AdventZero

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Originally Posted by Roegadyn_Bear

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Originally Posted by Iromi

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What on earth are you people talking about? Like, lmao, games (and parts of anymedia) have always been used to address real world concepts and "drama". I mean, heck do we need to get into the discussion about the what the heck Tetris brought to the plate in terms of "real life drama"? Plus.. This is FF, it's been talking about religious institutions and other "real life drama" things for a while now. Let's not even talk about "fantasy" as a genre and how it's always dealt with real life issues.

I don't know where these folks get this idea that video games were always apolitical and had nothing to do with the real world. Who do you think makes these games ffs, supranatural beings with no connection to the real world?

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Originally Posted by AdventZero

Also, anyone else miss the good old days when "Fantasy" games had nothing to do with real life drama all the time? Use to be I'd play games to get away from this kind of stuff, now I can't even do that without people losing it over every little damn thing. /sigh

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I do miss the old no which is like living in another dimension doing something purely on imagination

Let guys wear a dress if they want. I've already seen glamours in game out there which are far more 'challanging' than a big guy in a skimpy dress (seriously my FC leader has this Roe Moogle in tiger tripped speedo thing going which is kind of intimidating.)

To be honest, I think the reason women are more incline to wear men's clothing than vice versa in modern society is simply because male clothing is more practical. High Heals and Skirts tend to get in the way a lot more than flat heels and pants. I don't really think its a 'women dressing as men' thing and I've seen plenty of women that can be very feminine in without wearing a dress.

Omg...i want high heels in game, plspls. :3 I swear se said we'd get some...then again they say a lot of things lol.

Probably because fashion in general is mostly geared towards women.

You see plenty of women in men clothes today or variants.

I personally as a man would never wear a dress and the only men you do see wearin them are trans or drag. In which case you could just make a female avatar anyways.

Don't get me wrong it bothers me slightly. I really do hate how men's fashion literally consists of about 5 or 6 clothing types while women have hundreds of different styles.

Really the only option for men, which SE has done is adding hyper sexualized clothing as they have done in previous FF titles for males. Crop tops, shirtless suspenders, tight pants and short shorts. Even then the male fashion world is underwhelming as it is most often for slim body types and any sexualized clothing on men is generally considered "gay" even if the opposit sex appreciated it. (Solely due to ones own homoerotic tendencies in seeing another man dressed as such)

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Originally Posted by Cherie

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The only argument I have to this is lalafells are flat chested and still allowed to wear generally skimpy attire, so I might have some trouble believing its the chest that's the problem, but that's just my perception.

I really do die a little inside every time I go clothes shopping as the only option for men is this: Poorly fitted sagging ass jeans. skinny jeans. Beer/cartoon/MMA t shirts. Golf T shirts. Long sleeve T shirts. Suits. Trench coats. Silk shirts.

women: Pantyhose,Leggings,Knee highs, yoga pants, jeans, short shorts, waist high shorts, skirts, sarouls, mini skirts, garters, corsets, t shirts, baby doll t shirts, long sleeve t shirts, skinny jeans, crop tops, gown dresses, mini dress, v cut, of shoulder, shawl, blouse, tank top, strap tanks, one pieces,

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

The only argument I have to this is lalafells are flat chested and still allowed to wear generally skimpy attire, so I might have some trouble believing its the chest that's the problem, but that's just my perception.

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I'm 100% sure it's due to them not wanting to put the exact same set on males, but changing it to fit something more appropriate for their gender, which is why it would take more development. Whereas for females, if it shows the chest they add a bra and call it a day.

I wouldn't disagree with that line of thinking, as that is probably what the designers are thinking when they make the unisex attire, and to be honest I would be glad to find that more effort went into male versions of female attire than "Ok it is stretched to fit the model, good day."

I get where everyone is coming from with wanting more glamour options, and support it. My support though extends more toward the glamour system, though, which I think is somewhat limited, what with us only being able to pick glams in certain classes/jobs/gender. Certain gearsets I understand, such as AF (though Warrior gear with a greatsword...mmmm badass oozes from the combo, or MNK with DRG armor cuz spikey punching and kicking, but I digress) and racial gear, but if I want to look like an armored mage why can't I? lol

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I get where everyone is coming from with wanting more glamour options, and support it. My support though extends more toward the glamour system, though, which I think is somewhat limited, what with us only being able to pick glams in certain classes/jobs/gender. Certain gearsets I understand, such as AF (though Warrior gear with a greatsword...mmmm badass oozes from the combo, or MNK with DRG armor cuz spikey punching and kicking, but I digress) and racial gear, but if I want to look like an armored mage why can't I? lol

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I'd love for them to unrestrict it, playing WildStar and I can use any item for glamour purposes, light, medium, heavy, even if it's a higher level than I am! At level 25 I feel as if I have far more options than I do as a level 60 in FFXIV. Oh, and the dye system is far better too with 3 layers on most pieces.