I think parsers are unreliable and I do not trust them. I was running ravana ex with some ls mates and one was parsing and told the monk that they did the most dps. I main smn and at the time I was barely i190 whereas the monk was at least i200. Ofc they gonna out dps me. Plus they knew the fight better and stayed attacking ravana til the last possible second they had to move. Also, group parsers can and do ruin the party teamwork cause everyone is competing for top numbers instead of actually doing the content together and working as a team. If they do implement a parser in-game, make it optional and personal only so no one can see the party numbers, only personal.
parse for ps4 users !
Printable View
-
10-12-2015, 03:22 PMBigRed5392
-
10-12-2015, 03:29 PMWhiteroomCan you explain how the parser was unreliable in that situation? The MNK was told he did the most dps, and apparently he did. Not really an ofc hes gonna out dps you thing though, if you both know what you are on about yes, but he knew nothing...Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRed5392
I definitely want to see the numbers of other players. When I run across someone in the same class, with similar gear, and they are way out dpsing me by a good amount is where I can thrive and learn the most. -
10-12-2015, 03:44 PMBigRed5392
@Whiteroom
Parsers don't take gear differences into account was the main point of that little story. And as for an example of how parsers can be unreliable, I was looking up stat weights for the jobs I want to gear since HW launched and found a reddit thread and the first reply stated that someone is looking for the damage formulas and "We've only just managed to get the ACTUAL damage formula, and this discovery shows that the old 2.0 Crit Formula was severely off" (https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...t_weights_yet/) I am sure that parsers use the damage formulas somewhat to calculate the dps so if the formulas are wrong, the parser info will be wrong -
10-12-2015, 03:48 PMAzazua_azuraSorry this comes off as rude, but do you really need that explained. Its part of the list of inconsistency people don't factor when it comes to content. On paper people would lable the smn as bad if the monk was out dpsing him/her. This is due to smn have alot of skills/dots/pet that add into their dps, and monk relies on positionals (which can be hit or miss depending on the tank).Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom
And also the gear and player skill inconsistency of a person fresh to content and one who pretty much ran it so much they are pitch perfect in when to fight and when to back off. Which again on paper wou;d seem the fresh player is bad vs the player who know the content extremely well.
Also you don't really need to see numbers to improve, if you would like to there is a chat box filter for party member damage, or simply watch what the other person does and ask for tips. (which none of those require a parser)
And nym was echoing what i said about player behavior cuz he played DCUO as well (not with me) And saw what ingame parser did with the community
@ the quoyted person due to daily limit
eh i take it to difference in servers then but it new to me lol, again this is 4 man content not raids.
but with what you said as unreliable, they are try to run 4 different parser atr once and in a few cases each will gove you a different numbers. I consider that unreliable.
as for dcuo was this the pc or ps3 version? when i played when parser was added everyone (and yes this wasn't an exaggeration) would run group dungeons as straigh dps it was very rare you see a sanctioned healer or tank. abd everyone would run off to be the first to attack. or attack different groups dying. just to try and be number 1 dps.
also just to nitpick there are power tools that use-themselves at the push of a button. (i couldn't resist)
I honestly have all my numbered info off as to me numbers in a video game are arbirtrary. I improve by seeing how much dmg each hit/combo i do takes from the bosses hp. I know when im doing ok, and in know when I'm im sucking. I also take fault as well if groups wipe as everyone is as fault.
which again people rely too much on parse data to play which is not needed, i feel that the greatest of players improve w/o paerser data holding them into account. Cuz they know when they do well and not well be how they feel in that content and they ALWAYS are open to tips to constently improve -
10-12-2015, 03:51 PMseekifiedI don't see how a better-geared melee out-DPSing a summoner in a single-target situation is a sign of parsers being unreliable.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRed5392
-
10-12-2015, 03:58 PMAzazua_azuraI've been playing since launch and 1.0 prior.... thats a big NO. most tanks i saw in 2.0 and on was vit geared in 4 man content. once as3 was out every tank i saw was str based in 4 man content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom
first off me and red know about parser what they do etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs
we played an mmo that had a built in parser system. I also have been playing mmo for 10+ years and been around this parser mantality.
people rely too much on parrse numbers to pick apart who is doing good and who is doing bad (as per whatr people mostly use them for) In most statics i seen, been apart of, or heard complants about people gripe on if a person has low dps or not. People use it as a scale to see if they are playing well or not.
what me and red are saying is dmg numbers are unreliable scource to judhe if a person is playing well or not. Niether of us nor has anyone ever stated irs meant to hand hold content.
What people do debate is the communities over all mind or understanding with the info given by parser which by that thread, could be completely wrong. Or the patser a person is using is poorly coded.
What i was trying to state is parser numbers are inconsistent, how do you know what is a good parse number vs bad. What if a person you parsed as a judgment call was an absolute fluke, how can you judge numbers between two players who are geared different play differentm have different internet and live in different areas. Or have different levels of understanding content.
which again why me and red stated their are unreliable.
And again i do know what parser do, again dcuo has one built in. And nymbers are never the samec person to person, or content to content. -
10-12-2015, 04:02 PMAriaEnia
Met a tank last night in Alex 1 normal to get my bolt and he shouted that one healer didn't do any dps (a whm), and kept harassing that healer until we kill the oppressors, "can you at least throw some stone 3 cant you, lazy ass" etc etc
He even harassed a ninja because my DPS (a smn) was higher than the ninja when we were doing single target. The ninja left but we still managed to finish it. The tank said "good riddance"
My second time I've seen this happen in Alex 1.
/shrug -
10-12-2015, 04:05 PMWhiteroomThats because parsers just give you the number info, which was totally reliable in that "little story". Afaik, they gather the info from the battle log, which can be iffy in the event of dots. I read a bit on the dots point at one time, but am a little tired to find it right now. Gear differences are for the player to spot. The parser just gives you numerical info. It is not there to hold your hand through content, and you are sorely mistaken to view it that way. That you need to know how to read a parser to make the most out of it is just common sense. However, you do not need to be able to make perfect sense of it to gain from it.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRed5392
Parsers paint part of a larger picture. It is up to you to put the other, simple pieces together with it.
That's too bad. Did you report him?Quote:
Originally Posted by AriaEnia
Did he say he was using a parser? You don't really need one to see if a healer is doing damage. Not that they need to in there.
Which is at odds with most of the tanks I healed through 2.0. Can you remind me of the cost of running a crafted acc tank at that time, I remember it costing a pretty penny because of the demand. Which made all those tanks more in straight STR gear all the more noticeable to me healing them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azazua_azura
For your first bit, read above. There was nothing unreliable about the numbers. What is unreliable is your expectations of the parser. It is up to the players to make use of the tools. The hammer doesn't bang the nails itself, you have to do a little work. What does gear and new player skill have to do with a parser being unreliable? As above, a parser gives you a number.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azazua_azura
Also, it was you who said the player was bad. He didn't say he was bad, or that people called him bad. He said someone told the top performing dps, that they were the top performing dps. That they appeared to have the trial down the the point where they could execute it perfectly and were higher geared only confirms the accuracy of it.
Also, you can use those things you listed as a very rough guide. But here you think people aren't capable of reading the simple print on a parser, but are recommending something far more convoluted for less of a potential gain.
I too, came from DCUO and did not see the same effect from the parser, what I saw over there was the Devs making terrible and greedy decisions that made a lot of people in the game bitter and annoyed.
One add on: that you can use a parser to see the differences in pieces of gear is a function and benefit of a parser, not a demerit. -
10-12-2015, 04:06 PMBigRed5392and this kind of story is the precise reason I do not want a in-game parser that shows party dps. individual dps, sure, but party numbers, noQuote:
Originally Posted by AriaEnia
-
10-12-2015, 04:09 PMOPneedNerfs
FFXIV: People who haven't used parsers explaining why parsers are bad for doing what they think parsers do.
-
10-12-2015, 04:38 PMChif
If you want to be 1st on all world with out parse sry you can't if ppl don't use parse no 1 will kill Alexander Savage on time and if ppl don't know how to play this is not my problem helping ppl good I help all ppl that asking me to help but I need to help my self 1st parse helping me to improve my self yah for new ppl they don't want parse because they don't know about dps check they just doing dungeon after leaving game if all pc users don't use it yah we can say let us wait and give some time but the problem is 95٪ from pc users use it from 1.0 and I'm waiting , asking them to parse me if some 1 say some thing about parse pls tell us did you beat some thing 1st of all world !
watch YouTube all 1st ppl have kill have it use it with "allot of options" not only parse, parse is must for clear the game on time . -
10-12-2015, 04:47 PMBoss_Koivula
It's funny how there is always this small group of players who seem to witness someone using parser and abusing others because of low numbers everywhere no matter the content. By looking at this thread many who are against it are totally clueless how they even work.
Oh and i'm also a PS4 player and want a parser. I don't want a training dummy since hitting it doesnt tell me shit. I want to know how I fare in actual content when im trying to find an optimal way to use buffs etc. Especially when SE is so keen on designing hard DPS checks like in A3/4S. -
10-12-2015, 05:10 PMsirDartsGo run some DF Bismarck HM, once you wipe 6 times to the snake DPS check because others have no idea how bad they are, tell me again that there is no need for a parser.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gralna
Question for all the people against parsers:
Why are Tanks and Healers required to do 120% of their job capabilities (= their job + DPS), yet DPS players are babied and can get away with doing less than 50%? Why? -
10-12-2015, 05:38 PMTaikaI've seen DDs telling other DDs they suck and kick them for "low DPS" while the kicker themself has been the lowest DPS in the party. I've personally seen this happen twice. With an official parser those situations would have been prevented.Quote:
Originally Posted by WinterLuna
-
10-12-2015, 06:04 PMSapphicAnd with a parser that DRG would be able to see. With a parser would be able to see if they are pulling close to expected avg numbers for their gear, or just a 3rd of that. If one DPS is pulling 1300 DPS and the other is pulling 300 then anyone who is pulling the second with a little common sense will think "Hmmm, I should be doing more." I would happily give advice to the second DPS to help them improve. Plus they would have instant confirmation that they have improved.Quote:
Originally Posted by WinterLuna
If a parser was added for the PC and PS4 it would not stop you being able to report others, like now, for harrasment.
You are wasting your time asking that, it has been asked numerous times in other parser topics and all the anti-parser crowds seem to have a blind spot to that question. Only argument they have is, "because harrasment" based on anecdotal "evidence". Personally I found a more obnoxious form of harrasment over someone saying that your numbers are low is the one who puts in zero effort to the success of the party.Quote:
Originally Posted by sirDarts
Been MMOing since EQ1 with parsers and without, only time get called up on numbers when I decided to switch to a DPS role. You know what? After looking at the numbers, they were right. So I made an effort and improved. I got into the habit of practicing rotations until I felt comfortable with them, then I would join party content with the confidence that I would be able to contribute adequatly to the success of the run.
There are numerous players, myself included, who are always willing to help players to self improve. There are numerous guides written by players that some insultingly call elitist/hardcore. (pro-tip it is not "casuals" that write all the extensive guides available on the internet).
Theres no I in party and that player putting out 250 DPS when the other DPS is doing 1250 is not a team player. The rest of the team has every right to replace that 250 DPS player, just like the rest of the party has every right to replace a tank who cannot hold aggro or a healer that doesnt heal. Just with a parser that 250 DPS player will know exactly why and then is able to improve until they are no longer getting kicked from parties. -
10-12-2015, 06:06 PMChif
So all ppl have it exept ps4 users ,so that's why i want it cuz all ppl have it !!
-
10-12-2015, 06:10 PMMisutoraru
Same go for the argument the good of this out weight the bad it did
We are all making assumptions which cannot be proven till officially introduced -
10-12-2015, 06:18 PMMisutoraru
Does it help improve dps?it does
Does it induces harassment? It does
Then do the good out weight the bad or the bad out weight the good? No one knows
It is never introduce officially in FFXIV, no one can tell how it happen in FFXIV community -
10-12-2015, 06:44 PMrandysquirrelPlot twist: that tank was not running a parser, but neither was no-one else, He shouted out those remarks about people not pulling their weight, and because no-one else was running a parser, no-one could disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by AriaEnia
My point: Very rarely on these posts (god knows there are enough of them about parsers) do people consider that harassment MIGHT decline if we all had a parser. I play on PS4... in any content I'm in, someone can say I'm pulling great/abysmal dps and I have absolutely no idea if they are right or whatever, I must just accept what they say on blind faith, because I have no parser. If we all had equal access to parse, sure their might be some that use it to harass (but then we currently do anyway, as per your anecdote), but there might be less people calling others out when we can see THEIR numbers too -
10-12-2015, 07:00 PMYshnal
I'll quote myself, as it seems that some people think about parsers in a void, thus only seeing their benefits:
You just need to see the behavior of these players here and in every other MMO that has allowed or implemented open parsers (or here, even with the "don't talk about it" policy). It's not just a small number of people noticing this, otherwise we wouldn't have this discussion in every MMO out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yshnal
-
10-12-2015, 07:04 PMYeldirSavage content cannot be completed without parsers. I challenge you to try and find a static or free company actually clearing the various encounters in savage Alexander who do not use parsers. This content was designed and balanced with the expectation the players tackling it would be using parsers. That is, in its own way, kind of an unofficial official confirmation that parsers are sanctioned, even if SE doesn't feel like developing parsers themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Misutoraru
-
10-12-2015, 07:17 PMsirDartsI still don't understand that "argument" of yours. What do you mean by people not knowing how to use and read a parser?Quote:
Originally Posted by Yshnal
-
10-12-2015, 07:21 PMMentheusDreyarThe good definitely outweighs the bad, a-holes will be a-holes with or without an official parser. Without any incentive to improve people won't, and the problem will continue. We can draw on the vast amount of research and statistics from every other MMO. There is NO correlation between parsers and increased harrassment. This has been proven over and over again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Misutoraru
The real harassment in the game is the players who expect to put in no effort and get away with it or have no desire to learn to actually play properly.
As of right now i have a whole Linkshell of players who no longer want to put up with the incredible amount of bad players out there. And we're starting a second one in addition to our LS with our neighbor FC's, and guess what, the majority of those are tank mains or tank alts. Tanks that could otherwise be using DF and increasing queue speeds and otherwise helping players aren't because its not worth the hassle or abuse from these bad random players. Why waste 40+ mins when we can all get it done in 15-20+min with barely any effort because we are all contributing. And none of this is counting our friend lists which are slowly approaching the limit.
We're seeing it now and its only going to get worse until players get better, but eventually all the good players will get sick and tired of it and group together, leaving all the "bads" and new players together getting no content done.
If people don't want to contribute and perform in parties or otherwise hold any kind of responsibility in their role be it Tank, Healer or DPS they need to stop playing with other people. Period. They should have learned to play properly by lv 50 at the latest there is absolutely no reason to be performing on a sub 50 level after that. -
10-12-2015, 07:21 PMMisutoraruActually my standing point is about the same as SEQuote:
Originally Posted by Yeldir
I m not against anyone use it as third party tool if feel the need of it
If PS4 player can't use third party tool
And needed officially add into game
Leave it in raid only, the raider will be happy and those who don't like it can stay with 4-ppl dungeon
Like I say in other thread, i m not fully against it not fully accept it -
10-12-2015, 07:28 PMsirDartsI used to be a supporter of "only for 8-man raids and EX primals"-parsers. But with the amount of DPS check fails in incredibly easy content like Bismarck HM, parsers are needed elsewhere as well. DPS players, being babied for 50+ levels, never having to put in any effort, are suddenly required to put more than 50% of their capabilities, and they are unable to do so... Something is very wrong...Quote:
Originally Posted by Misutoraru
@People who are against parsers:
Imagine a tank putting in less than 50% of their capabilities in basically any content above (including) Hauke. EVERYONE would die.
Imagine a healer putting in less than 50% of their capabilities in basically any content. Once again, EVERYONE would die.
Yet DPS are allowed to do so without any sort of repercussion. -
10-12-2015, 07:39 PMMisutoraruActually I have experienced the bad out weight the good more than the other way roundQuote:
Originally Posted by MentheusDreyar
I have seen it become a norm in community the number become speaking power
I have actually seen healer being bashed by a tank becoz the healer don't do enough dps as the tank want
Would the FFXIV community become one of these kind of jackass, no one know what would happen
You can assure me you won't turn jerk, but at the end you are u, I can't get everyone to promise not to turn
It is a gamble I wouldn't risk
I would say it again, if the raid design need it, leave it in binding coil and Alex -
10-12-2015, 07:54 PMChif
I would say it again, if the raid design need it, leave it in binding coil and Alex[/QUOTE]
If you don't doing raid why you talking about parse ? you just have to talk about how to take screenshots and share it .
So parse not lligle SE have to band all ppl who use it that's mean raid ppl who clear 1st 2nd 3ed coil and AS that's mean all player on YouTube and 1st on server since 1.0 . -
10-12-2015, 08:05 PMMisutoraruIf you don't doing raid why you talking [/QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by Chif
Wow wow wow
First I say leave it in raid, so I will be a function in raid only
I don't care if it is official as long as I don't touch normal dungeon
And when do I say anything about ban? -
10-12-2015, 08:07 PMArchaell
How to introduce official parser without hurting anybody's feelings? Make it individual choice.
In solo content give players option to turn it on/off.
In open world group content give party leader option to turn it on/off.
In duty finder content - Split queues. Right next to the "in progress" put an option "join party with parser" and "join party without parser". This option should be also active for roulettes.
Give players choice if they want to play with similarly minded players. -
10-12-2015, 08:09 PMYshnalThey just see dps numbers and don't take into account AoE damage, mobility, mechanics, etc. Sometimes you might not be doing proper dps because you had to do something else, as another player didn't do what they had to do. In that situation these players would blame you for the lack of dps instead of being aware that it wasn't actually your fault at all. That's what I mean with few people knowing how to use that tool, and you will agree that if a parser is so much needed because there's so many people that don't know how to use their job, they won't be able to use a parser properly either outside of using it to check their own raw dps. And in that case they will have enough (and it will be easier for them) with what SE is going to implement to "train" players.Quote:
Originally Posted by sirDarts
A parser won't magically make people learn how to use their job. It can even be counterproductive if they don't understand the information that they're getting from it. That's why I'm more inclined to do something like what SE is trying to do, instead of just giving a parser to everyone and hope for the best. -
10-12-2015, 08:10 PMMentheusDreyarIt sucks that you have experienced more of the negativity yourself, but what no one anti parser is thinking about is the overall experience throughout the entire player base. Statistically people will still experience the toxicity from the a-holes unless everyone suddenly becomes a saint. That is a plain fact, it will never be fully removed. But for every single report of harassment, there will be many less reports because either people will realize they cant play sub-par anymore and improve, reducing the overall level of harassment or they wont improve and continue to be removed and continue to complain. If you don't give them a legitimate reason to remove you then they won't, and if they kick you for none legitimate reasons there is still the ability to report those players, it's not like its being removed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Misutoraru
Players without feedback won't improve. The game relies ALOT on DPS checks because the majority can't handle even simple mechanics competently, having no way to measure a groups performance in these situations is a huge mistake and it leads to all sorts of harassment, which you are trying to avoid. And it's not just raids that have DPS checks quite of few dungeons have them too, they aren't even remotely hard and yet people still fail them, further fueling the fire of toxicity.
The fact people are actively avoiding DF should clearly tell you the general level of play is not good enough. -
10-12-2015, 08:11 PMSapphicYet it is just the same, small number of players who are vehemently against parsers. Maybe those getting called out when parsers are used should look at themselves instead of the tool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yshnal
Use you anecdotal evidence to answer this if you can, Why is it ok for a DPS to underperform and not be held acountable whereas a tank underperforming or a healer underperforming is? By refusing to answer it makes your points moot.
It is easy to spot a Tank or healer that is underperforming to the standard required to clear content. How do you know then if required DPS is 1000 per DPS and one is pulling 1000 DPS and the second is pulling 900? All situations lead to not completing the content. Or one DPS is pushing 1000 and the other is pushing 300 but believes vehemently that they are doing good? -
10-12-2015, 08:14 PMMentheusDreyarTime for the daily "Because harassment" comeback :p they can't answer it because there have no legitimate answer to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapphic
-
10-12-2015, 08:14 PMYshnalRead my last post, please.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapphic
-
10-12-2015, 08:15 PMMisutoraruIf you don't doing raid why you talking [/QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by Chif
Wow wow wow
First I say leave it in raid, so I will be a function in raid only
I don't care if it is official as long as I don't touch normal dungeon
And when do I say anything about ban?
I am not against it implements for raiding
But not in normal dungeon
That's the biggest gamble I could agree with -
10-12-2015, 08:20 PMMisutoraruIf you don't doing raid why you talking [/QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by Chif
Wow wow wow
First I say leave it in raid, so I will be a function in raid only
I don't care if it is official as long as I don't touch normal dungeon
And when do I say anything about ban?
I am not against it implements for raiding
But not in normal dungeon, the only time
That's the biggest gamble I could agree with -
10-12-2015, 08:27 PMMisutoraruWe are making assumptions base on a statistical calculations of our experienceQuote:
Originally Posted by MentheusDreyar
It seem we are not likely to get to an agreement
I have seen how the tool being miss use and become a common tool to bashing ppl
You have seen the effort it help to improve the overall performance
At the end it is a tool, but how the person use it
Sometimes there aren't really a border between good and evil -
10-12-2015, 08:31 PMChif
People need parse to improve skills to doing dungeon, raid , choosing good ppl to make staitic give tips for each other many things .
If all ppl use that's mean it's official with out saying . What imeant about ban that's parse is lligle.
So you want to tell me let ppl waste my time in dungeon and my monthly payments?? -
10-12-2015, 08:45 PMSapphicCan't see where you answer my question, just personal anecdotal "evidence".Quote:
Originally Posted by Yshnal
So, enlighten me, where DO you answer that DPS don't need to be as accountable as tanks and healers in regards to performance in a team setting? -
10-12-2015, 08:46 PMYeldirThis is the best idea yet. It would lead to everyone using parsers in remarkably short order. The two boxes are basically "pass the dps check" and "don't pass the dps check". A few nights of option #2 and that queue is dead forever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaell