WHM dps VS. SCH dps

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Originally Posted by Raminax

Either latency, or the timing isn't as strict as the post is claiming.

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Latency has nothing to do with server ticks, if you pop shroud/LA right before a server tick you'll only get 4 ticks instead of 5. But yea you really need to screw up badly to get 4 ticks instead of 5 but its always something to watch out for.

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Originally Posted by Rewind

Sorry, I must have been a misread the CD as I was using a website to get the potency calculation, The 5th tick is legitimate in combat. Please see https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...nt_for_whm_in/

No need to be insulting ^_^



Then WHM wins both AoE and Single Target (infinite MP pool). Though that will never happen >.<

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Haha, no doubt

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Originally Posted by Rewind

Sorry, I must have been a misread the CD as I was using a website to get the potency calculation

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To be fair about this statement - there's actually fairy large misconception that Shroud of Saints is 180s when in actuality it's only 120s. When I asked a few posters about this in a different thread they replied that it was listed at 180s on a variety of websites and I did what I could to edit that number on most wiki's (though there was one I couldn't access the edit button to, sadly). Therefore you aren't the first person to think Shrouds is 180s and certainly won't be the last - it's apparently a very common misconception. If I were to take a guess, I think Shroud was a 180s cooldown back in 1.0? That would be my one and only guess for this misinformation across a variety of sources.

I'm beginning to encourage most people to use Garland Tools Database for all their FFXV tooltips because s/he seems to keep the site regularly updated and accurate.

Sch has 5 dots (aero/b/b2/m/sf) with more uptime for broil/ruin spam since 18 secs shortest dot refresh time- which results in more dps even on single target when you account for food/pots/bv/foes. Normally in most cases casting shadowflare pre-pull (and swiftcast will be up for every shadowflare) to add up more uptime on broil is extra dps + the 6 AF stacks opener (not counting dissipation). Whm will also be lower on dps in most aoe situations because bane+miasma2+shadowflare+blizzard2 are that good if the targets are rich on their HP pool. Whm will only do burst damage on opener but even then when a scholar goes all out on deeps they can even beat a warrior's op burst. (it's not that often though)

to answer your question sch is better single and aoe on any situation whether multiple targets (2+ targets) or single. This is from my own experience in instances.

Edit: foes/bv capturing all 5 dots is nice too

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Originally Posted by mp-please

Rawr.

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I'll acknowledge it, but it does feel like a bit of an exaggeration to say that one will get '4 ticks in general'. Especially considering how hard I had to try to get 4 ticks (I did get one Luminiferous Aether disappointing me in the end). :p Had a try where my Shroud expired, but then I got the 707 MP tick a split second later, lol.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Rawr!

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I did see 399 MP costs for Cure III pop up occasionally when it was quite clearly 505 back then. Perhaps I'm just a hopeless nerd who remembers these things. :p

Either way, burn ze databases with fire! And let them be reborn as a glorious phoenix!

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I'm beginning to encourage most people to use Garland Tools Database for all their FFXV tooltips because s/he seems to keep the site regularly updated and accurate.

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Thanks! I'll be honest and say that I don't really consider how long my shroud CD is for fights, I use it rather at a particular % and every point after or at a time where I know I'll need to drop emnity fast. It's become so automatic I just never consider the site to be incorrect.

Just to identify the incorrect site http://www.ffxivinfo.com/class/conjurer.php // http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Conjurer

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Originally Posted by Anze-chan

Sch has 5 dots (aero/b/b2/m/sf) with more uptime for broil/ruin spam since 18 secs shortest dot refresh time- which results in more dps even on single target when you account for food/pots/bv/foes. Normally in most cases casting shadowflare pre-pull (and swiftcast will be up for every shadowflare) to add up more uptime on broil is extra dps + the 6 AF stacks opener (not counting dissipation). Whm will also be lower on dps in most aoe situations because bane+miasma2+shadowflare+blizzard2 are that good if the targets are rich on their HP pool. Whm will only do burst damage on opener but even then when a scholar goes all out on deeps they can even beat a warrior's op burst. (it's not that often though)

to answer your question sch is better single and aoe on any situation whether multiple targets (2+ targets) or single. This is from my own experience in instances.

Edit: foes/bv capturing all 5 dots is nice too

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Nope.

I play with an i210 weapon SCH, he can't touch WAR's burst or sustained. Just not in the cards. In fact, WHM's raw damage is too high on a single target, even with misses a WHM DPSing will beat out an equally geared SCH while they're both DPSing. The difference in real fights, why SCH will usually come out ahead in boss fights, is just because a WHM's role of applying HoTs to both the tanks and the party constantly, something it has to stop DPSing to do, and most groups have WHM pick up near death people while it's doing so. This leads to the same dynamic we had in ARR where SCH is the off-healer, WHM is the main healer, just now the main healer is a DPS machine with more damage and more safety nets to DPS from.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Nope.

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But I've already seen a 1.4k scholar opener burst and he was on top of the warrior's dps, to be honest I think it was even higher than 1.4k. The reason why scholars are dpsing more often is not because of how busy the whm is, it's more like how good are they when micro managing their pet while on cleric. I have seen a lot of scholars have their pet on auto with barely any management and it forces them to switch back from cleric to be able to heal. Unlike what most people think scholars do run out of MP when perfectly played in savage due to multiple targets and broil spam. Also their ability to aoe immediately unlike single targeting dots on whm. If you took a whm and a sch to any savage turn and asked them to ignore healing completely -given that mp is infinite and equal skill cap- I highly doubt a whm can beat a sch.

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Originally Posted by Anze-chan

But I've already seen a 1.4k scholar opener burst and he was on top of the warrior's dps, to be honest I think it was even higher than 1.4k.

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SCH has a great opener with being able to weave Energy Drains. It's ridiculous when you begin with 3 stacks, Aetherflow off of CD, and Dissipation ready.

All of that doesn't mean that what others are saying isn't true, however. Burst is nice, but it isn't the whole picture by a long shot.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

All of that doesn't mean that what others are saying isn't true, however. Burst is nice, but it isn't the whole picture by a long shot.

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What else is missing though? I mean, scholars branch from a dps class, it has the tools to dps better than whm naturally. As generic as that may sound it kind of is true, and for a scholar to reach it's full dps potential takes more effort than a whm doing so.

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Originally Posted by Anze-chan

What else is missing though? I mean, scholars branch from a dps class, it has the tools to dps better than whm naturally. As generic as that may sound it kind of is true, and for a scholar to reach it's full dps potential takes more effort than a whm doing so.

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weaving energy drain with broil isn't more effort...

because energy drain and broil is all there is....

and done

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...rTsdX8/pubhtml

Considering I didn't consider miasma II as it's known to be a complete waste of mp on single target, didn't consider selene haste buff due the simple fact selene might be taking a break for eos (and the buff is so tiny i was lazy to calculate) and ignored server side ticks like for example, some dots can only tick 7 times instead of 8 depending on the time they're used.
It can be concluded that both scholar and white mage are the exact same thing, with scholar losing ground to white mage with as many aether stacks are used on anything other than energy drain. However this advantage is easily balanced by the simple fact white mage has to drop cleric to refresh HoTs/tetra while scholar can depend on a roused fairy most of the time with lustrates being only used when a tank drops too low.

So yea, both classes are the same when it comes to single target with scholar losing to white mage on aoe. The main difference lies on the amount of mp each class uses to deal said dps with scholar managing to keep up their dps for more time while white mage goes oom in roughly 3 mins worth of single target dps, even faster if it has to heal. But that's what bards are for ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°).

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Originally Posted by mp-please

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...TsdX8/pubhtml#
(note: scholar "rotation" might not be the ideal)

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I like the presentation of your spread sheet. Here are a few things you'll need to correct to make it more accurate though:

1. Bio and Aero aren't oGCDs. They're GCD abilities that are instantly cast so they will still enable the 2.4s Recast you're using in your spreadsheet.
2. Animation delays on oGCDs like Fluid Aura and Energy Drain still account for a 1s delay in the player, which can adjust when you will be casting specific abilities
3. Stone III is actually more potency in a single GCD than Aero. You should only be really using Aero on WHM if you weave an oGCD ability like Fluid Aura or Assize while the Recast timer is ticking down.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I like the presentation of your spread sheet. Here are a few things you'll need to correct to make it more accurate though:

1. Bio and Aero aren't oGCDs. They're GCD abilities that are instantly cast so they will still enable the 2.4s Recast you're using in your spreadsheet.
2. Animation delays on oGCDs like Fluid Aura and Energy Drain still account for a 1s delay in the player, which can adjust when you will be casting specific abilities
3. Stone III is actually more potency in a single GCD than Aero. You should only be really using Aero on WHM if you weave an oGCD ability like Fluid Aura or Assize while the Recast timer is ticking down.

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Fixed. Bio and aero instant casts always got me fooled. Also removed the aero II during PoM cast since it's a dps loss.

About animation delays, i think the timer sort of takes it into consideration since each box counts for 1.2secs, i guess just take it with a grain of salt.

@mp-please, the only thing i hate about whm aoe is the sheer mp cost of holy. Aero 3 and assize were awesome additions but hily is still an mp sucker where bane doesn't hurt mp at all still ><. Thats kinda why i like sch aoe

with multiple targets like how it is in alex savage, sch wouldn't be running on a rotation of energy drain spam. Although it would be very amusing to see a whm beat a sch on heavy trash mob pulls because I think it's:

assize/aero3/holy(with or without pom) vs bane/miasma2/shadowflare/blizzard2

The example in a2 follows with vuln up stacks which supports sch aoe dps more than whm in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Slib

@mp-please, the only thing i hate about whm aoe is the sheer mp cost of holy. Aero 3 and assize were awesome additions but hily is still an mp sucker where bane doesn't hurt mp at all still ><. Thats kinda why i like sch aoe

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Personally, i never had issues with holy and it's mp consumption, in dungeons at least. It's a whole different story with raid scenario where i really don't recommend spamming it till oom due the heavier healing requirement and no stops to recover mp.

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Originally Posted by Anze-chan

with multiple targets like how it is in alex savage, sch wouldn't be running on a rotation of energy drain spam. Although it would be very amusing to see a whm beat a sch on heavy trash mob pulls because I think it's:

assize/aero3/holy(with or without pom) vs bane/miasma2/shadowflare/blizzard2

The example in a2 follows with vuln up stacks which supports sch aoe dps more than whm in my opinion.

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On savage, is totally possible for a scholar to beat whm on aoe. I wouldn't dare to spam holy on a raid situation where i have to heal and dps for more than 5 mins, my party bard would kill me.

In a nutshell,
short term single/aoe dps(1-3 min): WHM > SCH
long term single/aoe dps (3min+): SCH > WHM

sounds about right