...Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
Karen could crush Tsubasa's cat like a worm.
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Enough is enough
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08-21-2015, 11:42 AMGalgarion
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08-21-2015, 11:59 AMPraesulI'm not saying that PLD DPS should be buffed, because all that would happen is we'd go back to WAR + PLD comps. To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure what CAN be done to balance the 3 tanks so any tank combination (outside of doubles of 1 job, which I argue should be suboptimal anyway outside of weird edge cases). My point is that it's silly that many people argue that the balance is fine currently, and that anything can be cleared with any tank combination (even if that's true).Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
My opinion is that the game should strive to always be better balanced no matter what. Even if things are "okay" and "doable"...Doesn't sit well with me, and I don't understand why people are satisfied with their jobs being less than what they could be. Just because PLD or DRK think that some changes need to be made, doesn't mean that it's useless whining, or that we think other jobs should be nerfed. Because despite what some people think, I don't want WAR to be nerfed. I think that WAR is a good example of how tank balance SHOULD be. It brings really great raid utility, does very good damage, fits the MT and OT role equally well, and has no resource problems. ALL tanks should have something along those lines, PLD or DRK are lacking in some departments here.
Also from what I understand, the way the buffs are calculated, is that storm's path reduces damage dealt by the target while defensive buffs reduce damage taken so that they stack additively rather than multiplicatively. I know defensive buffs stack multiplicatively because it's % increases working with each other, but I don't think storm's path works the same way. Don't quote me on that though, I just remember reading that somewhere but I've not tested it myself. -
08-21-2015, 12:00 PMPhoeniciaLeave my Hanekawaneko-chama alone! nya~Quote:
Originally Posted by Galgarion
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08-21-2015, 12:10 PMGalgarionFeel the POWAH!Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
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08-21-2015, 12:21 PMPhoeniciaBecause the debuff is done on the boss and the buffs on you, that's more the reason they would stack multiplicatively not additively. Take the following example:Quote:
Originally Posted by Praesul
Boss does 10,000 damage:
You have Storm Path up: So instead, it does 9,000.
You pop Inner Beast, you reduce the 9,000 by 20% to get hit for 7,200.
So from the original damage of 10,000, Inner Beast reduced 18% (1,800) instead of 20%. Due to the inverse trait of multiplication, we can also say IB reduced by 20% but the total effect of SP is 8%. Potaeto potato. They stack multiplicatively.
Regardless, the effective increase of effective HP per ability/CD is still the same. SP increases everyone's eHP by 11.1111%, IB increases eHP by 25% and SP + IB is a total increase of ~38% (too lazy to get the exact decimal).
The Monogatari series is the best!Quote:
Originally Posted by Galgarion
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08-21-2015, 12:24 PMGalgarionIt seriously is. Four episodes a year is not nearly enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
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08-21-2015, 01:17 PMWizhardYeah it sure does not help with incredibly high damage aoes in A3S.What ability a paladin can use that is better than SP for mitigating all 6 cascades/splashes/protean waves on the last phase of a3s for the whole party. Enlighten me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
Now i actually would be fine with pld not getting a dps increase, what i am not fine with is drk/pld combo being inferior compared to x/war. And i hope to god you wont try and reason that it is not. -
08-21-2015, 02:03 PMPhoeniciaMy entire post is about how that should be fixed. I don't know where it was that you saw me saying, or even implying, otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizhard
I see you quoted SP. As I said, it's "great" and "nothing to laugh at".. But it is not the holy grail of all utility. It is actually the 1 utility WAR has. And the 6 cascades/splashes/protean waves aren't all happening at the exact time and can be healed through. And I bet you anything that your WAR is probably not keeping Storm path up in that phase, lol. Specially when he is the one with aggro. As a matter of fact, RoH + DK(Delerium) probably do more than Storm Path in that phase as keeping those two buffs is usually "mandatory" in your rotation.
Also as I said, Storm Path stacks multiplicatively with other damage reducing buffs, so having RoH/Delirium/DK up, popping CDs, adding Sacred Soil, etc, just makes SP less and less beneficial. People assume that it is a flat 10% damage reduction added on top of whatever else, but it isn't. While Divine Veil and Succor add flat layers of HP that stack additively. I am willing to bet you that Divine Veil probably shaves off more damage than SP in the last phase. 10% of PLD's HP is usually 15% of the DPS' HP. As long as the AoEs manage to "break the shield", Divine Veil would've reduced more damage on those AoEs than what SP would have. -
08-21-2015, 10:47 PMIpkonfigYou are completely incorrect, first no PLD in Sword Oath was out DPSing a WAR OT unless the WAR just wasn't good, and we're talking BiS left side and full crafted/melded accessories. On pre-echo Twintania WAR OT could get very close to a mid tier DPS I still ended up going MNK instead of WAR when we switched to single tank for Dragon Kick and MNK was the highest DPS at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Praesul
I feel bad groups if they had WAR MTs in brand new content, i.e. less than optimal gear levels. PLD is more forgiving so if you don't know the mechanics well you can still clear while WAR requires a perfect cool down rotation because Inner Beast is on the global and buff delay. If you're even a second off on getting it up it won't effect the incoming tank buster. Pretty much if Inner Beast isn't up before the cast gets to half then it won't effect the damage. Also that "fluff" damage is pretty detrimental in new content since your healers are also under-geared so any means of reducing that is welcomed. Plenty of top tier groups had their PLDs meld DEX into fending accessories for even more "fluff" mitigation when they were pushing world firsts.
I challenge you to show concrete proof of a world first clear that used a WAR MT, pre-Heavensward. Even the first 5 clears will have PLD MT.
On top of PLDs dominating the MT slot in world firsts, there were also very few fights that actually required two tanks, and PLD was the optimal choice for a single tank since they have far more "Oh S@#$!" buttons. -
08-22-2015, 12:27 AMPraesulThis has been tested many times in the past Check the comments for further clarification on the rotation and stats. The gap became even bigger the lower the delay on the PLD's sword, because it gains even bigger benefits from Sword Oath.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ipkonfig
As for world first groups clearing with PLD MT? Yeah no duh. When it's a competition, stability and consistency is more important because you get to see more phases of a fight, giving you more insight on the encounter. Sacrifices are made in bleeding edge content, like using melded accessories with vit on DPS and healers just to be able to survive things despite the option of accessories with more damage stats being there. Of course they're going to have the PLD MT, because their goal is to clear before others do, and healing a WAR requires more effort. -
08-22-2015, 07:56 AMPhoeniciaThat analysis was based on WAR rotation SE/SP, not SE/BB. Also WAR juggling Defiance to use Unchained+IB then dropping Defiance did more DPS than not popping defiance at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Praesul
Anyways, it's awash, my WAR used to do 450 DPS in 130 gear while my PLD mate used to do 430~440.
The DPS difference between WAR OT and PLD OT hasn't been solidly proven. But the WAR MT / PLD OT definitely proved to do more DPS than the opposite. -
08-22-2015, 08:01 AMSpookyGhost
Also any time that PLD needed to go into ShO, they lost a lot more damage than a WAR going into Defiance. Still true now. The ideal min/max DPS setup was PLD MT in SwO + WAR OT but that only came around after content was overgeared and ready to be sold.
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08-22-2015, 08:14 AMFaytte1. With 2 exceptions (Iron Will, Bulwark)Other tanks all have the same cds as a Paladin (or more). Cova, Awareness are both cross class; all paladin has is traits for them (and the only good one is frankly awareness. Cova's extra 10% results in almost entirely over healing in my experience. You have 20% cd 90 sec, a 40% at 180 seconds, bulwark is also 180 seconds for only 15 seconds of uptime. The only cooldown that Paladins get thats actually 'better' than other tanks is Hallowed Ground.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miggiwoo
2. You dont understand math. Warriors get extra healing and extra health. The effect is they are the same as paladins. If both of you have 10K health and a warrior is in stance, and you both take a set of damage (say, 2K) and then get healed, you will both be at the same % of health.
3. They dont. They parse the heck out of Sword Oath--its ok, it just isnt at the same level as other tanks. This is however FINE if the extra utility a paladin brought into raids meant a damn. Clemency is too slow to be of any importance, and most damage worth noting now adays is magical; so rage of halone and cover are pretty irrelevant.
4. I dont disagree.
5. Warriors arnt over powered; Paladins are under powered at this point. They dont need --the same damage-- but the Paladin niche of better damage absorption is mostly a myth; you can tank auto attacks better via your shield, but with the loss of physical busters, bulwark/shelltron are kind of negated, they only reduce the damage your healers had no problem healing anyways. -
08-22-2015, 08:36 AMCrystel_Leah
English/ Children's forum
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08-22-2015, 09:35 AMPhoeniciaWelcome back Faytte. Havne't seen you posting lately, been away?Quote:
Originally Posted by Faytte
I don't agree that PLD is under powered. PLD just suffers from being "unfavored" to the current content. But I agree something needs to be done. If you have 3 options, none of them should be left out. Even if in the end you have a worst/best option. -
08-23-2015, 05:28 PMAniCelestineIt's the only tank done right for the current content*Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
Current content is based on dps checks, that wasn't the case when pld was relatively close to warrior dps in tank stance in 2.xx (when you could really have both tank's in tank stance even if it was a mt/OT and still beat the dps checks quite easily) but with the ease of changing stances as warrior and the incoming dmg coming to tanks not requiring being 100% on tank stance.(my group's warrior sits in defiance till 30% on faust as opposed to the 50% most use, sure its a bit riskier but dps dps and dps.) The dmg output difference gets too high with the way pld vs warrior is(dps and stance dancingwise), and since drk has better magical defense (and dk replacer) drk wins over pld for the current content (alongside with their dps still being a bit better) pld just doesn't fit into the current content because of how paladin is designed; physical damage wall. -
08-23-2015, 06:40 PMPhoeniciaWAR is done right, period. It had a complete tanking set since 2.1 and that hasn't changed. It only got better. WAR in Defiance did double the DPS of Shield Oath PLD pre-HW.Quote:
Originally Posted by AniCelestine
WAR has all the tools to do a perfect job as MT. WAR has all the tools to do a perfect job as OT. It can switch on the fly. And it provides support that doesn't conflict with other classes. WAR's toolkit as a whole is very cohesive and synergistic with itself as opposed to DRK's self-conflicting and PLD's overly situational toolkits. Put WAR with any other tank, and that tank performs better! WAR is also the only tank that provides another DPS class a DPS benefit.
This is where things went bad, DRK skill set has conflicts but it's not breaking the class. But DRK doesn't offer synergy with any other class (as in doesn't provide buffs that make others perform better). Only reason DRK has a place in raids is its DPS. And the magical tank busters don't hurt DRK as much as physical ones. Had the raids had physical tank busters, DRKs would be the unwanted black sheep.
PLD on the other hand does provide great defensive utility... The problem? It's not needed. At least, not as much as DPS is. So that's why PLD "doesn't fit". There is no "need" for what the PLD has to offer. PLD is a great class as it is, but it doesn't offer what is needed for this DPS-check heavy environment. -
08-23-2015, 11:38 PMSir-Meliodas
If Warrior is what a tank should be, then Pld and Drk are underpowered. Pld needs a damage increasing buff from a combo like warrior. Also, both Pld and Drk need extra effects from their combos being added as warrior has 4 effects (enmity, self healing, target damage output reduction, and slashing resistance debuff) while Pld has 2 (enmity and strength down) and drk has 3 (enmity, int down, and self heal). In the current system the Pld is the training wheels tank, the Drk is the Bike tank, and the Warrior is the Motorcycle tank. It is all about going up the ladder to a more powerful tank. It kinda dampens the play what you want element of the game.
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08-24-2015, 12:35 AMPhoeniciaThe only time you'll give PLD self heals is if you give the other two tanks block and fix the disparity on WAR's received healing (Defiance is 20% heal increase, not 25%, and only affects spells, not abilities like Assize and Lustrate). WAR self healing is a compensatory thing as it receives less effective healing and has no passive mitigation from a shield. DRK has self healing also to cover the lack of shield, but to a lesser level than WAR because DRK receives the same effective healing as PLD. As far as self healing is concerned, it's quite balanced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir-Meliodas
In my post, I was pointing out that WAR has all it needs to tank and all it needs to DPS and all it needs to switch between. Not only that, it has great synergy with other classes (other tanks and NIN). WAR doesn't care what the damage type is, it can mitigate it.
On the other hand, PLD has most of what it needs to tank (most power defensive CDs in the game) but suffers from aggro issues. It also has some of what it needs to DPS (Sword Oath is the most potent offensive stance), but has major TP issues and does not provide its own damage type resistance down (slashing debuff). It also has to deal with lots of "clunk" when it needs to switch between due to unnecessary MP costs on stances and them being on GCD. PLD also has the lowest aggro of the three tanks. As a matter of fact, PLD DPS potential suffers because of its aggro issues, having to use more Rage of Halone (weakest potency combo of all three classes) to compensate. PLD's "synergy" is with the healers but not to a noticeable extent. PLD has no particular synergy with the other tanks or DPS. PLD also has a whole set of "situational" CDs that may or may not see use.
DRK is a whole different can of worms. Its tanking suffers from self-conflicting tools. Evasion and Blind (while they reduce more damage than parry) conflict with DRK's parry as it has a lot of "procs" from it. Evasion and Blind also conflict with the MP regen of Blood Price. DRK has no reliable way of mitigating physical damage. And if tank busters are physical and frequent, DRK will incorporate LD into its CD rotation (Like how PLD uses HG), which is fine... but it puts additional stress on healers and forces ANOTHER "oh crap" button.
Now that we see how DRK has an "inconsistent" tanking set, let's look at its DPS tools. DRK has no "DPS stance" unlike Deliverance and Sword Oath. But it has a buff like Maim in the form of Darkside. Which is fine and dandy. DRK, like PLD, does not provide its own damage type resistance down either. DRK, even more so than PLD, suffer SERIOUS TP issues. DRK, to a lesser degree than PLD, also suffers "clunk" when it comes to stance switching.
DRK has absolutely no synergy with ANY other class. It actually has disynergy (if that's a word) with other classes (MNK just doesn't work with DRK). But then again, the class has no synergy with itself lol.
So yes, warrior, right now, is "how a tank should be". The other tanks should be raised to WAR's level, and not to take WAR down to PLD or DRK levels. To fix this, you don't have to slap what is on WAR to the other two tanks (self heals, SE/SP), homogenizing them in the process, but to have a broader look at their toolkits and what they offer the raid as a whole.
While you talked about the difficulty "ladder" of the three classes in comparison to "bikes", balancing a class based on difficulty is not always a good thing. Because people end up taking the most skilled players in the best performing class. Even though a high risk - high reward design is fun to have and gives incentive to have people try to master the harder classes. Basically, unless it is really difficult to get the perfect performance where the harder class performs much better than the easier one, where you are guaranteed that even the most skilled players will make mistakes, it is unhealthy to have performance tied to difficulty. Due to this game's nature, balance based on difficulty is really unhealthy. It was bad enough when MNK sat as the top DPS class for over a year and a half because SE considered it the most difficult class, even though many MNK players would tell you the rotation sinks into muscle memory VERY quickly and that "optimal performance" is commonly achievable. But this is not a post arguing/discussing MNK's difficulty. :p
A good example on difficulty ladder performance would be TERA. TERA had two tanking classes. They had varying difficulty and optimal performance. Lancer on average outperformed the warrior, but warrior "optimally" leaves a lancer in the dust.
The pure "shield" tank, the Lancer, and the "evasion" DPS hybrid, the warrior. A lancer is much easier to tank with as it has better aggro and defensive tools (A skill set dedicated to tanking). A good lancer will take minimal damage but because it is restricted to blocking attacks, they end up taking damage as some of the damage can go through the block threshold.
On the other hand, a warrior has a myriad of offensive and defensive skills (since it's a hybrid), resulting in more tank DPS, and if played perfectly, 0 damage taken as the warrior will block with "Cross-parry" most week attacks and completely evade any big hitters that may pass through the "block" threshold.
However, performance varies a lot based on player's reaction rather than a set scripted dance like FFXIV. Bosses in TERA, unlike this game, had no set "rotations" but had certain CDs on their abilities. The boss may throw any ability at you at any time, but once it is used, that ability won't be used again for a while (Minimum is the "CD", but can take longer). Bosses also "reacted" to players. For example if you have aggro but end up behind the boss somehow the boss will do a tail swipe. If you stun a boss AoE attack, it will do a breath attack instead. Or if an aggro switch happens, boss reacts with a spinning AoE attack. So the game was "less predictable" than FFXIV.
However, because there are no "set boss rotations" and there are many other elements like human error and resource management (block and dodge used an "Endurance" resource), it was almost impossible for warriors to reach that point where they deal more damage than lancer and still take 0 damage in return. In the end, even though warrior is a "better tank" in theory, it was never considered a better tank and, given the option, lancer was always taken over warrior for the tank spot. -
08-24-2015, 01:00 AMNFaelivrinThe fact that people think this is the problem is hilarious, it doesn't even actually merit this response because its the absolutely most banal and stupid way you can look at tank balance and frankly it contributes so little that the greatest favor you could do us all would be to take this nonsense out of our collective sight. I'll give you a few hints since you seem to be so thick: The general complaints are that PLD is considered a suboptimal choice in any tank role for the majority of Alexander Savage, suboptimal, as in, you're better off not taking a PLD at all, as in "don't play PLD in Savage unless you want to be a burden to your team". "Special snowflake", please, PLD was never the mandatory MT even in 2.XX except in the mind of people who never looked objectively at WAR's tanking toolkit after 2.1, and even if PLD had been the "mandatory main tank" before, that's not what people want, what people want is for the class to not be dead weight in the current raid environment. Does that make sense to you? Or do I need to put it in simpler words?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lone-wolfe-02
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08-24-2015, 01:18 AMSir-Meliodas
But in FFXIV that is what is going on, there is a ladder system that rewards you for going with more difficult tanks.
The idea of the Dark Knight is that you have to use abilities in such a way to optimize your tanking ability. (You have to strike an equilibrium with the conflicting abilities (that was probably how the dark knight was designed)).
Living Dead is not optimal but it can work ( benediction and the fact that you can still take damage in LD as you only need healing equivalent to your max hp and not to be fully healed ).
When no monk is present delirium is good and reprisal works well enough so drk has some synergy.