Don't misslead people about what their job does, please

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Originally Posted by Atoli

The issue came up in a troll thread that was locked, but the problem is real and deserves to be talked about in a troll-free place:

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It seems your intent has not been met, if it keeps on going the way it is, this one will be locked too. People wonder why the DF has alot of toxicity in it, just read some of these replies that'll give you an idea.

The very first Guild Hest teaches some of the basics of class roles IIRC.

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Originally Posted by DragonFlyy

The very first Guild Hest teaches some of the basics of class roles IIRC.

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Didn't even do a guild hest until the MSQ that forced you into it, well past the start of the MSQ.

People keep saying that "the class quests have you protect NPCs"... And yes, they do. But other classes also have instanced quests with NPCs that mustn't die or you fail it. Conjurer quests are one thing (keep the party alive by healing them), but... What about pure-dps classes? Are Black Mages tanks or healers because they have quests that require NPCs not to die?

I personally never had a problem with it. Then again, I'm the kind of person who actually reads quest dialogue. I also read the flavour texts in some dungeons (whether it's books, notes tacked onto walls, etc) and watch cutscenes the first time I see them. But somehow, a lot of people don't do that and even frown on those who do that or want to do that. I have an FC member who hadn't watched a single cutscene until HW (when we convinced him to try it), who just clicks through the quest dialogue because the quest list tooltip tells you what to do anyway.

That kind of player wouldn't really be helped by those quests, because they wouldn't really be able to tell the difference between Gladiator's "failed because NPC died", Conjurer's "failed because NPC died" and Black Mage's "failed because NPC died".
(And I'm using Black Mage because the level 45 quest was so frustrating to me that I remember it even now XD)


But yes, having a small note next to the class selection in the beginning with "Role: Tank" or "Role: Damage Dealer" or "Role: Healer" wouldn't be that difficult and wouldn't be intrusive to those not needing it, but it would probably help a lot of people who just pick 'the guy with a sword' or 'the guy with that huge axe'. Of course, they'd need to make some sort of system that'd accommodate Arcanist being DPS -> DPS/Healer, but... I dunno.

I completely agree with the OP.

When I started playing a couple of months ago, I chose the Marauder class because I like to play melee but prefer an axe or sword to a lance. Little did I know that a Marauder is only a tank class. I was able to transition to a Lancer, and did so before I ran my first dungeons for the MSQ. I do NOT want to tank (and definitely won't tank in content and a game that's totally new to me), and wasn't thrilled to figure out that I'd unknowingly chosen a tank class. There was no hint at all as to the role of the class during the character selection process.

I think a lot of people pick up this game because it is a final fantasy game more than an mmo, at least I was one of those person. When I started this game I had absolutely no idea that there were roles, what a tank or aggro meant and was even a thing.
'Luckily' the sword and axe play weren't my thing so I started the game by being a pugilist, which mean less responsibilities... but oh boy I was that awful DPS everyone hate in their party that does every stupid thing possible. I remember someone trying to explain to me that we had to all focus the mobs in an order given, but I wouldn't understand because I knew I could take up group of mobs by myself... outside of instances (at least now I'm a bit more patient with new players...)

This game is supposed to be pretty noob friendly (?) but just a small tutorial asking if we are new to mmo and giving us a quick description about what role are should be a thing.

I really really don't understand why there isn't unanimousl agreement to to add a SINGLE extra statement to class class descriptions.

This class is a tank, and and is Defense and control oriented"


That is literally all the OP is proposing, just to alleviate any confusion for a minority if people that might not get it. Why are people arguing against this?

I see so many people missing what OP is saying. I think SE should add a little line saying this class is a tank/healer/dps. Most people are saying "oh but the quest teaches you" yes we know but during character creation they don't tell you which the OP is trying to tell you which they should change. I remember entering a dungeon and a marauder didnt even know he is tank.

Agreed, I started playing with a group of friends recently, they've all played MMOs before. The two guys who prefer melee dps both picked tank classes by accident and have since switched. A short note explaining the roles would be helpful.

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Originally Posted by reillyblair

its not just tanks though, dont get me wrong i like to pick on them almost as much as everyone else, but there are dps that are confused as to their role and even healers to some extent ill put what my ideas are please correct if you think i am wrong

tank role = getting the heavy hitters mainly to hit them only and grabbing any ads they can

dps role = killing ads being mindful not to attack the wrong one thus generating hate and getting yourself killed and laughed at by your team lol

healer role= above all healing the tank if tank is fine topping up melee then long range dps whilst keeping in mind heals generate hate sometimes more so then dps can get from hitting the wrong add

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The problem is that a "DPS" that doesn't know what they are doing, can be carried and honestly, they can roll right through all the storyline bits without knowing how to do their job. Just press 1-2-3-4 on the keyboard... with your face, eventually something will land.

A Tank or a Healer can not do this, so those are the only Roles that the player actually needs to know, and to the point, the TANK also needs to know how the boss mechanics work, and the general layout of the dungeons.

A new player who starts the game and goes "oh cool dark knight" not realizing it's a tanking role is in for a rude surprise.

I agree with the op. I talked a friend into doing the trial thing and he picked the gladiator. He was talking about the damage he was doing and I pointed out he'd be expected to tank in groups on that class. He seemed unaware it was a tanking class.

Dont see why it wouldnt help to make it a bit more obvious I guess. Im sure there is some explanation to it somewhere between lvls 1-15 so I wouldnt say its. Not sure if its been mentioned yet but I know in one of the class quests for GLD you have tank or your healer dies and you fail the duty. Not sure how much they emphasize the point since I dont remember too much of the dialogue. I think I remember a similar one for CNJ too but im a little foggy on that.

I dont see this as a big issue for anyone thats played an MMO before, they should know whats up as soon at they get a High Enmity attack or a Heal. More for the fresh newbies which this game seems to have a lot of.

EDIT:
Maybe instead of having us go outside to kill overgrown rodents and insects they could give those classes a high enmity attack or heal and take through to a quick instanced training session. Dont really see an issue with allowing GLD or CNJ to start out with 2 abilities instead of 1 attack. Then again, then there is the problem of what to train Arcanists as. DPS and then another training one once they get Scholar? /shrug

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Originally Posted by Fyrebrand

I wonder if people are coming in from WoW, where even after you've chosen a class there is still some wiggle room

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Not just wow but just about every mmo say what the intended role of that class is at the creation screen.
Knowing how the classes and jobs work now I can say it doesn't bother me but when I first started I was surprised to find out that a marauder had no dps option when I q'd the first time.

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Originally Posted by Voltyblast

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Most of the 1.0 classes got their roles changed while the job system got added. The classes existed already since 1.0 beta and to make the job system fit to it 1 year after some changes needed to happen.

Original class roles:
GLA: was always the tank, but was also capable of doing damage if equiped skills from other classes
MRD: Tank/DpS with AoE skills.
PGL: fast attacks DPS type, low range (have to be very near the enemy to hit)
LNC: melee DPS with the highest range as a melee
ARC: ranged DPS
CNJ: elementar mage (fire, ice, wind, wate, earth, lightning spells) with heal skill and buffs like potect, shell. AoE type: circle
THM: DoT mage with astral spells and umbral spells, heal that cost the THM a bit from his own HP (Sacrifice) and counter spells that reflect a bit of the damage back to the enemy. AoE type: cone

After Yoshida announced the job system there was a big debatte who from CNJ and THM get the WHM job and the BLM job. i was for giving the WHM job to THM, because he was the best healer and the guild is a temple and all that.

old skill lists:
http://www.final-fantasy-14.org/abil...&submit=Filter

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Originally Posted by Ymal

I think a lot of people pick up this game because it is a final fantasy game more than an mmo

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I don't understand. FF has had the trinity since FF3?

I'm fairly certain that the reason the character creation screen is like the way it is is to accomodate arcanists. Originally, many and more classes were supposed to be able to branch out into different jobs.
If you have already labeled the roles at creation it would be quite awkward for a new player if and when the system was implemented. Unfortunately, after the colossal failure that was arcanist they have most iikely dropped the class-job system and instead will focus more on jobs themselves. So, that's ust what I assume is the reasoning for not labeling the classes, since maybe, just maybe, they may bring back split classes. And I really hope they don't.

Many people keep bringing up class quests. It is VERY easy for a first time player to miss class quests entirely and end up in Satasha after only a couple hours of leveling. There a lots of quests, and while you are shown your guild through MSQ, there isn't much indication that it is where you NEED to be every 5 levels, at least at first. I did my quests, guildmasters quest icon went red, and I wandered off.

We are not asking for a total revamp of the systems or anything. Just an added line on the creation screen, or hell, an added WORD. (Tank/Heal/DPS/Damn it, an Arcanist, we ruined it!)

It sucks to get into the game, get MSQ up to Dungeons, and find you aren't in the role you wanted.

AT LEAST GET RID OF THE LIES ABOUT GLD BEING ABLE TO SINGLE SWORD IT. We have NO swords that support that idea. If you are a GLD without a shield, you are losing out, and the higher you level, the bigger that gap becomes.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

And we still wonder why so many clueless GLAs turn up who are shocked to find out they are gonna be a turtle and not a mantis?

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To the ones who don't go anything past what they see and want to jump in head first experiencing the game, I can see how the title of those who originally selected Gladiator thinking they could do damage, you get some cushion on not knowing your job, but no by level 15 and above. Past that it is just laziness or people who aren't looking into their class.

I am trying to take this into account as a brand new player but it's very difficult. Who doesn't at least look up a description of the game before you buy? I'm looking it up on google now. I am at GameConsoles and the description maybe different than what it is now but on there it's pretty clear, maybe they need to bring that back. But taking that to the side, looking at your first set of abilities up until level 5 you see "Increased Enmity" I am use to hearing the word Hate, this meant nothing to me so I asked what in the world is Enmity (I'm don't have a large MMO history) they said "it attracts monsters to you for you to hold" and from there you find out you're a tank.

This is only level 5, how can you get to 20 and not question a single aspect of the game? How are you not doing Hests and figuring out mechanics of the game? Why are you starting in Uldah and see "Gladiators Guild" but not wonder "wtf is in there?" I really didn't think this topic was a real thing so I came for a laugh, now I have high blood pressure and I have developed diabetes. (I actually have both but blaming it on this now.)

I hope you get your descriptions fixed and worked out. I'm off to Erozea to play my dark knight..that's a DPS right? Yeah..pewpew.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The problem is that a "DPS" that doesn't know what they are doing, can be carried and honestly, they can roll right through all the storyline bits without knowing how to do their job. Just press 1-2-3-4 on the keyboard... with your face, eventually something will land.

A Tank or a Healer can not do this, so those are the only Roles that the player actually needs to know, and to the point, the TANK also needs to know how the boss mechanics work, and the general layout of the dungeons.

A new player who starts the game and goes "oh cool dark knight" not realizing it's a tanking role is in for a rude surprise.

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i totally agree about dps although theres some duties if your dps isnt up to scratch you wipe

a healer doesnt need to know as much as a tank but still a good idea to have a look and see what is coming up

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Originally Posted by Leigaon

To the ones who don't go anything past what they see and want to jump in head first experiencing the game, I can see how the title of those who originally selected Gladiator thinking they could do damage, you get some cushion on not knowing your job, but no by level 15 and above. Past that it is just laziness or people who aren't looking into their class.

I am trying to take this into account as a brand new player but it's very difficult.

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I agree, by the time you are through your first Satasha run, you should have a pretty good idea whats up. Of course, by then, you've burned a fair amount of time (at least 5 hours, I would guess, if you were doing MSQ stuff and exploring and not just blitzing through on an alt), which could be annoying, or even result in trial players saying "screw it".

I realized GLD was a tank. Now I tank. I tank pretty well, too. Not everyone is me.

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Originally Posted by SpecialKK

I don't understand. FF has had the trinity since FF3?

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FF1 :P , u start with a party of 4 and choose from 6 jobs? warrior , whm , blm , rogue , monk , rdm :D

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Originally Posted by SpecialKK

I don't understand. FF has had the trinity since FF3?

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Actually it hasn't.

You need to follow the chain of "RPG" custody:
D&D Pen and Paper RPG's-> Wizardy/Ultima CRPG's ->(FF1 incorporated elements from both Ultima III and Wizardy)
Each subsquent FF game deviated on the class/job structure until FF5 when the "Job" system came back as something flexible. FF6 brought back the ability to piecemeal select skills from anything learned a la Wizardy. But then FF7 and later went in a new direction.
FFXIV brought back the FFI class/job structure, but with the flexibility of FF5's jobs, and FF6's gear.

But at no point in any FF game has it been anything other than DD/Healer. You could change a few of the roles around, but there has never been a defined "tank" class in any FF game except FFXIV. Basically every class that wasn't a healer just had a "gimmick" skill in addition to "attack"

FFI had, by default, Warrior (DPS), Black Mage (DPS), Thief (DPS), and White Mage (Healer)

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Originally Posted by Leigaon

I am trying to take this into account as a brand new player but it's very difficult. Who doesn't at least look up a description of the game before you buy?

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Yeah I don't understand this either. FFXI was my first MMO, and I knew what race and class I was going to play before I even got my hands on the game.

Same when I played wow, iro, gw2. I do it even for offline rpg.

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Originally Posted by MatthiasS

Many people keep bringing up class quests. It is VERY easy for a first time player to miss class quests entirely and end up in Satasha after only a couple hours of leveling. There a lots of quests, and while you are shown your guild through MSQ, there isn't much indication that it is where you NEED to be every 5 levels, at least at first. I did my quests, guildmasters quest icon went red, and I wandered off.

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Uh I took the text that appears saying "The next Gladiator quest will become available at level X." As a bit of a clue that I should come back at level X.

Wow, I'm a bit shocked by the huge response this got :x

Okay, I'll try to clarify some things:
Yes, there are hints to the roles in skill descriptions and class quests, but like many others said already, those are easy to miss. You have to protect NPCs in dps class quests too, it's not something only tanks and healers have to do.
And honestly, even if you notice it at lvl 15, if it's a role you didn't want to play (which is true for many people who wanted to become a dps but accidently chose a tank class) it means you have to pick another class and level up those whole 15 levels again, this time without any, or at least with less quests. And for a beginner, that takes a while. It's frustrating and needlessly kills the joy of playing at a time when there aren't many cool things yet to keep you playing. Even worse, if you got up to Brayflox without knowing your role, even more levels you'll have to grind on a different class.
(and yes, that's different from leveling up additional classes when you have already reached endgame with your first, because to many people, neither combat is a lot of fun in the beginning with only pressing 1, 1, 2, 1, 1 nor has the story progressed a lot yet).

I just don't understand why there is so much opposition to this :(
Many newbies are really overwhelmed by the huge amount of things they can do and should know about in this game, they don't even know where to start reading up, even if they are willing to do it, which is not a given either.
I don't see how it is "catering to stupid" to just tell people what to expect of their class when they pick it instead of several levels later.
As Terribad already pointed out:

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Originally Posted by Terribad

they should read about what they're getting into. When smart people find something new, they read up on it. SE has information on the website about which jobs are which and what they should to in a party.

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It's not like the information isn't existing in any official place. How would it hurt anyone if that information was in the one place every player goes through, instead of hidden away on the homepage somewhere?
All I'm asking for is that SE makes this information available at the class selection screen during the character creation. It doesn't hurt anyone but can help those who get confused by unclear descriptions.

Several people have wondered about the Arcanist.
The answer is actually pretty easy: SE can just write in the class description that Arcanist can either become a even stronger dps or a healer, depending on what the player wants to focus on.
Same with BRD: Call the archer dps, but make it obvious that, as it grows, it gains more and more support abilities too.
If the misleading descriptions for other classes become clearer, Arcanist will be the only class that has information about different job options later. If SE ever decides to add additional jobs to other classes, they can just adapt the class description to that.

In general, FFXIV is a very beginnerfriendly game, especially to those who haven't played MMORPGs before. So why purposely confuse new players with information that is not true, only to expect them to NOT believe what the game just told them in the character creation (like GLA dropping the shield for a sword) and expect them to purposely ignore that official information to wander off to wiki or guide sites that are NOT an official source and read up on their class there? It just doesn't make any sense :/

I didn\\\\'t play 7 and don\\\\'t remember 6. I do remember 3, 4, 10, 11, 12, 13. While some games don\\\\'t hit you in the head with tank/heal/dps...the roles always exist in some fashion.

There\\\\'s always a guy that takes punishments the best. There\\\\'s always a guy that does tons of dmg (sometimes it\\\\'s split to magical vs physical). And then I need someone to heal. In almost every ff game I recall, my party composition always included characters that fills those roles.

So if you have experience in FF like the poster I quoted claimed, then the concept of the trinity should already exist in your head. ..even if you may not realize what the community calls it, the role should be clear

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Originally Posted by Atoli

Wow, I'm a bit shocked by the huge response this got :x

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I don't necessarily disagree that this can be a QOL change that can be helpful. But I also dont have this problem. Perhaps because I'm a long time rpg fan. ROLE playing.

As such, I do my research before I choose my class. It only makes sense to me that I know my ROLE in a ROLE playing game before I create my character

I got tricked into playing a support role when I chose hunter originally. I quit the game soon after it forced me to become a bard a couple years back. That's kind of a separate issue though that you are forced to take on the pre-determine advanced class.

I'd really rather not even be a ninja, but I can live with that one at least. If only I could be a rogue and not be gimped to hell.

This sounds like a job for Clippy.

http://i.imgur.com/iScC5pL.png

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Originally Posted by SpecialKK

I don't necessarily disagree that this can be a QOL change that can be helpful. But I also dont have this problem. Perhaps because I'm a long time rpg fan. ROLE playing.

As such, I do my research before I choose my class. It only makes sense to me that I know my ROLE in a ROLE playing game before I create my character

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Not every role playing game is class or party based.

Fallout 3 is a role playing game.
The witcher series are role playing games.
Harry Potter and the chamber of secrets the video game is a role playing game.

Mmo or group based conventions are not synonymous or consistent through huge variety of games that fall into the roleplaying genre
Edit: Besides are you really suggesting that people need to do research outside of the game just to figure out the General purpose of a class? Something that could be cleared up in one sentence?

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

But at no point in any FF game has it been anything other than DD/Healer.

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FF XIII - Sentinel = tank

In boss fights you gave one of the party members the Sentinel paradigm role, to drew the boss attacks to him/her

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Sentinel is a paradigm role in Final Fantasy XIII whose main function is to shield allies from enemy attacks with enhanced defense. They can counterattack after taking on enemy attacks, making them similar to a Viking. The role is symbolized with the initials SEN and the color yellow.

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And the Vikings in FF III

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"Vikings have the ability to lure enemies into attacking them instead of other members of the party, but it's gonna hurt!"
—In-game description

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Originally Posted by Raikki

This sounds like a job for Clippy.

http://i.imgur.com/iScC5pL.png

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Hey Clips, you goin' to tell me why the WHM keeps DPSing and not healing and gets me killed after popping every cooldown
I had as a PLD?

Seriously, if you aren't going to do your job, then be a different job. A lot of these WHM's forget what they're doing these days.

ff1 warrior = tank

Heavy armor/shield/less damage delt than the others.
Took up the top slot to be the primary soak.

Try and put your healer in that spot and see how much harder it is to progress. The monsters hit around, but the upper slots got hit more than the lower ones.

Honestly, coming to this game with no prior experience, the descriptions are vague. I read all the info on mdr before I picked it, and nowhere did it say "your job is to make sure everything is hitting you all the time". It's not like I didn't read the skill notes either. "Increased emnity" doesn't mean anything at all if you don't understand how emnity works in the game (I understand what emnity means when used in a sentence, but in regards to the game I had no idea). It started to click around level 20 (forums are super helpful), and I finally got a handle on it. If someone clearly isn't getting it, don't be an @$$. Just explain what's going on and what's expected of them. If they still don't get it: Vote Kick <--- that will teach them eventually.

Yeah, I kinda agree that if one of your first abilities is called CURE and you still don't realise you're supposed to be a healer, even with the aid of a colour-coded DF menu with big letters saying HEALER - then there is no hope for you. But then again I never understood people that don't do any research. When I hit 15, I googled "FFXIV Sastasha" and tons of information came up. Why would you not do this? This is an MMO. You are playing with other real life people. I don't know. If a game tells me YOU ARE GOING TO GROUP WITH OTHER PEOPLE NOW, I would at least want to be somewhat prepared so as not to ruin anyone else's game time out of ignorance. All I get from people who want to "experience the game, not read about it" is Me, Me, Me, screw you other 3 (7) people.

IMO the first class quests are abundantly clear about what your role is.

Add the guildhests that spell it out for you and the color coding of the classes, and it is quite hard to miss.

If you can't realize your role by level 15 when you get the first dungeon, I'm sorry, but it is a personal problem by this point. Nothing the game can do to make it easier for you.

Actually, when I first started playing, I had this issue with one single job. Archanist. You get a healing spell and some attack spells, and a pet that heals and attacks. I thought I was a healer job until my first dungeon and then I was like o.O wtf?

As for myself, I am still trying to learn my roles in a party because I have a unique situation in that I avoided partying and soloed every possible thing I could until I had no choice if I wanted to advance in the main scenario.

Finally dinged my first 50 this month. :|

The Guildhests are the most helpful thing I have found as far as actual real time tutorials on roles.

The next thing that is helping me other than kind players just telling me when I ask for help, is just good old fashioned, repetitive, real time practice in a party.

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Originally Posted by Jican

Actually, when I first started playing, I had this issue with one single job. Archanist. You get a healing spell and some attack spells, and a pet that heals and attacks. I thought I was a healer job until my first dungeon and then I was like o.O wtf?

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Yea it is confusing to a beginner especially having access to Resurrection.

In my limited experience in partying, even though the party role says "DPS", and I understood it to be DPS from the beginning,
I have found myself sometimes needing to support the healer in a pinch but I have to pop a Mind potion to do anything helpful.

If the healer dies or is busy, I am next in line to raise people.

Having soloed so much, it is also difficult to not default heal myself when I need it and instead just rely on the healer so I can focus on Dps.

I started my first character as a gladiator, expecting to be a damage dealer. I'm someone who does pay attention to what the game's telling me, so by the time I entered my first dungeon I knew I was supposed to tank, but even so, that would have been pretty late to find out if I hadn't planned on doing everything at some point anyway.

For somebody who didn't want to tank, getting 15 levels in and only then finding out that the class they'd been leveling that whole time isn't even the role they wanted would be quite a blow. (Those of us at 50 or 60 now may not think of the first 15 levels as amounting to much, but to a new player who's only gotten that far they are. Many people feel very invested into their characters within just the first few levels, and when it's the entirety of what you've played so far, it's a lot.)

It's all the more important to be clear about roles in a game that's moving to a different genre than the majority of its franchise. I think XIII is the only one of the single-player FFs to even have a tank role, and some don't have a dedicated healer either. The notion of group roles as they exist here is more of an MMO thing.

So let me get this, you guys want to make it clearer what classes do?

You do know your class icon colors denotes to what you are expected to do. Blue for tanks, Red for DPS, Green for Healers.

Oh and wait for it, your low level class quests pretty much hand hold you and tell you what exactly to do.

Lastly in this day in age, Google is your best friend, if you cant even use resources available to you, people need to start rethinking how they view things.