Gear Progression Continues to Make Little Sense

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaedan

They do, it's called Alex Normal. I mean really, try to complete A1 or A4 with a group of nothing but casuals and yourself sometime... it's not going to work out well, even after you explain it.

---

Alex normal I feel is stupid easy. I feel Alex normal should be called Alex for dummies or for that matter Alex for beginners. It poses no challenge to me. So imo no they don't have a raid for intermediates. They only have Alex for beginners aka Alex normal and Alex for statics and HC aka Alex savage. I think they really need a raid that is in between the two.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kogasan

Alex normal I feel is stupid easy. I feel Alex normal should be called Alex for dummies or for that matter Alex for beginners. It poses no challenge to me. So imo no they don't have a raid for intermediates. They only have Alex for beginners aka Alex normal and Alex for statics and HC aka Alex savage. I think they really need a raid that is in between the two.

---

Twelve forfend, its the missing link argument, applied to raid content again.

It is named what it is, there's no need to try and mock players with it.

Standard MMO gearing have never made sense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ditto

Alexander normal gear helps gearing alts, and acts as filler gear, or an alternative in general depending on your stat priority, to the esoteric gear.

You can get more alex normal gear than you can get Esoteric gear within a week. It's not meant to be equal.

---

That may be how some people choose to distribute the equipment, but there is nothing indicating such behavior is an intended consequence of the content design. Alex gear can be acquired slightly faster, to a point. The main body from Alexander takes a month to save up for, which is more than even the esoteric weapon. The end game isn't made with the multiple job system in mind. If anything, it resembles the gearing systems of games that have only a single job per character.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ladon

Why? This is the dumbest thing ever. Why are specific gearsets being created purely for secondary jobs? Again I question the logic in this as it makes no sense.



Absolutely. This is another glaring issue. Locking class specific gear behind higher requirements and weekly caps again makes no sense especially with three new jobs added.

---

Originally story mode (Alexander Hard mode) was set without gear, but good guy yoshi and his band of marry men added gear as a bonus for more people to run Alexander to allow players to still progress through the raid without waiting too long.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ladon

Why? This is the dumbest thing ever. Why are specific gearsets being created purely for secondary jobs? Again I question the logic in this as it makes no sense.

---

Because people cry and complain that "oh no, i play every class in the game, and you mean to tell me i have to wait to get esoterics for all of them????"

No, this adds a way for you to gear them, and then run them through some stuff to get better gear.

You are NOT AT ALL meant to get the best gear for each class at the same time, NEVER should this be possible. It would be a horrible game design and would cause even more players to just run some stuff for a couple weeks then drop sub. The gear grind, is what keeps the majority of players PLAYING between content patches. Once you understand this, you will understand the answer to your original question.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fendred

That may be how some people choose to distribute the equipment, but there is nothing indicating such behavior is an intended consequence of the content design. Alex gear can be acquired slightly faster, to a point. The main body from Alexander takes a month to save up for, which is more than even the esoteric weapon. The end game isn't made with the multiple job system in mind. If anything, it resembles the gearing systems of games that have only a single job per character.

---

It take 5 weeks to fully gear a role (Tank, Healer, Caster, Ranged, Dragoon, Monk, Nin) in i190 using the optimal collection pattern. It take 13.3 weeks to fully gear 1 class in i200.

You can gear up 8 classes to i190 through Alex NM in roughly the time it takes to gear one class to i200 with Esoterics.

We also do not know what ilevel the 3.1 24 man will give. It could be i190 or i200.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

It take 5 weeks to fully gear a role (Tank, Healer, Caster, Ranged, Dragoon, Monk, Nin) in i190 using the optimal collection pattern. It take 13.3 weeks to fully gear 1 class in i200.

You can gear up 8 classes to i190 through Alex NM in roughly the time it takes to gear one class to i200 with Esoterics.

We also do not know what ilevel the 3.1 24 man will give. It could be i190 or i200.

---

It shares the same general methodology for gearing up as any other Themepark MMORPG, and those don't have the option to raise multiple jobs on the same character. If they were going to release so many dungeons that you could equally gear up multiple jobs despite lockouts, they would just remove lockouts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fendred

It shares the same general methodology for gearing up as any other Themepark MMORPG, and those don't have the option to raise multiple jobs on the same character. If they were going to release so many dungeons that you could equally gear up multiple jobs despite lockouts, they would just remove lockouts.

---

No, they are doing things this way to extend subscriptions and the amount of weekly play. Currently the best gear for both your Main class and your Alts is behind a weekly lock.

It currently takes just over a month to gear an Alt role to near max when previously you could have geared every class to near max in a couple weeks with uncapped tomes. This will extend play/subscription time during each 2 patch cycle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kogasan

Alex normal I feel is stupid easy. I feel Alex normal should be called Alex for dummies or for that matter Alex for beginners. It poses no challenge to me. So imo no they don't have a raid for intermediates. They only have Alex for beginners aka Alex normal and Alex for statics and HC aka Alex savage. I think they really need a raid that is in between the two.

---

Do you even bother to read?

As I said, take 7 other casuals with you and go do A1 and A4. I actually agree with you that Alex.N is easy, but it's only easy if you know the mechanics. Very casual players are usually not going to know them. That's why it's intermediate content... it takes some practice and knowledge, unlike Dungeons.

The inability of a portion of the playerbase to use basic knowledge of job and fight mechanics should never be a factor in creating content. If you can clear said content, bring like players with you and clear it. Leave the mouth breathers to spam dungeons for 180 gear while you nab your 190. Or is the problem that said mouth breathers would be on the same level as yourself in gaining tokens for esoterics gear? Well, I suppose take solace in the fact that you are better geared with 190 AND 200s and capable of clearing current content while they farm Neverreap ad nauseum in 180.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rafaelhades

The inability of a portion of the playerbase to use basic knowledge of job and fight mechanics should never be a factor in creating content. If you can clear said content, bring like players with you and clear it. Leave the mouth breathers to spam dungeons for 180 gear while you nab your 190. Or is the problem that said mouth breathers would be on the same level as yourself in gaining tokens for esoterics gear? Well, I suppose take solace in the fact that you are better geared with 190 AND 200s and capable of clearing current content while they farm Neverreap ad nauseum in 180.

---

You're whole stance here seems to be the misconception that this is some plea to keep better gear out of the hands of crappy players. It really wasn't ever suggested in any way.

Again it's very simple. Objectively, difficulty of content is rated by the required iLevel to participate in the content.

Alexander Hard is rated at 170.
The 60 dungeons are rated at 145.

The 145 dungeons have i200 rewards where the 170 content rewards i190 gear. This is nonsensical, broken gear progression that needlessly invalidates a set of gear that many people were already working on with zero knowledge of what the new gear would be like.

I have seen it suggested that this i190 gear was meant to gear out additional jobs and I have to call total BS on this. Nobody knew what the ilevel of Esoterics gear was going to be when they released Alexander Hard. It could have easily been i190 and upgradable to i200 fitting in with the ilevel requirement progression. To tell me in hindsight that we were supposed to be aware that this gear was meant to be gearing up an alt is just silly and a poor attempt at justifying a broken system. Suggesting that Alex hard gear either be boosted to ilevel 200 or Estoterics gear be dropped down to ilevel 190 is a completely valid suggestion that properly obeys the very system the game designers put in place to begin with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ladon

The 145 dungeons have i200 rewards where the 170 content rewards i190 gear. This is nonsensical, broken gear progression that needlessly invalidates a set of gear that many people were already working on with zero knowledge of what the new gear would be like..

---

Alexander HM also gives Esoterics and the i145 Expert Dungeons', Neverreap and Fractal Continuum, actual rewards (i.e. those things you get from chests) are i160. Esoterics are a currency that you collect for doing level 60 content not a direct reward.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ladon

snip

---

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you aren't just trolling. You seem to not understand the way gear progression works. It's not running i145 dungeons for i200 gear like you are stating, what actually happens is you are running i145 content for i160 gear and currency for i170 gear(that can be upgraded to i180) as well as i200 currency . This gear is used to do content that drops i190 gear as well as i170 and i200 currency. That gear is used to do content that drops i210 gear, i210 tokens, i200 currency (as well as upgrade items for the gear bought by the currency) and some extra i170 currency.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheMax1087

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you aren't just trolling. You seem to not understand the way gear progression works. It's not running i145 dungeons for i200 gear like you are stating, what actually happens is you are running i145 content for i160 gear and currency for i170 gear(that can be upgraded to i180) as well as i200 currency . This gear is used to do content that drops i190 gear as well as i170 and i200 currency. That gear is used to do content that drops i210 gear, i210 tokens, i200 currency (as well as upgrade items for the gear bought by the currency) and some extra i170 currency.

---

No this isn't how gear progression works. It is not valid to be collecting i200 gear to run an i170 dungeon to get i190 gear and call this a progression.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ladon

No this isn't how gear progression works. It is not valid to be collecting i200 gear to run an i170 dungeon to get i190 gear and call this a progression.

---

Damn you for crushing the little faith I had that you weren't trolling.

What annoys me is that we come into an expansion with 5 gear "jumps" all at once. 160/170/180/190/200. I started off getting 160 and just needed a few pieces of 170 to begin alex normal and the two ex primals. Well, now I got all of that on farm with 170 gear so why should I even bother with the other gear sets besides what I'm guaranteed just by doing daily roulettes for 200. From an alt standpoint, all the alex normal mode gear and law tomes from roulettes are just going to my alts while I count the days until I get a full esoteric set for my main. My point is, I'm simply going from 160 to partial 170 then skipping to 200 with no reason for anything in between on my main. It just makes me feel "blah" and question, "why bother?"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kuikui

What annoys me is that we come into an expansion with 5 gear "jumps" all at once. 160/170/180/190/200. I started off getting 160 and just needed a few pieces of 170 to begin alex normal and the two ex primals. Well, now I got all of that on farm with 170 gear so why should I even bother with the other gear sets besides what I'm guaranteed just by doing daily roulettes for 200. From an alt standpoint, all the alex normal mode gear and law tomes from roulettes are just going to my alts while I count the days until I get a full esoteric set for my main. My point is, I'm simply going from 160 to partial 170 then skipping to 200 with no reason for anything in between on my main. It just makes me feel "blah" and question, "why bother?"

---

Because 3.5 months (14 weeks) is a long time to wait to max out your main?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kuikui

What annoys me is that we come into an expansion with 5 gear "jumps" all at once. 160/170/180/190/200. I started off getting 160 and just needed a few pieces of 170 to begin alex normal and the two ex primals. Well, now I got all of that on farm with 170 gear so why should I even bother with the other gear sets besides what I'm guaranteed just by doing daily roulettes for 200. From an alt standpoint, all the alex normal mode gear and law tomes from roulettes are just going to my alts while I count the days until I get a full esoteric set for my main. My point is, I'm simply going from 160 to partial 170 then skipping to 200 with no reason for anything in between on my main. It just makes me feel "blah" and question, "why bother?"

---

This is exactly like it was with Myth tokens. Darklight (Law) >> Crystal Tower (Alex Normal) >> Myth (Esoterics) >> Coil (Alex Savage)

The only difference is they are allowing us to upgrade Law and Eso gear from the get-go instead of having to wait a few patches for them to implement the upgrade/augment system.

Law is gear for Alex Normal. Eso is gear for Savage/Vanity/generally making things easier. A.Normal is for filling in the gaps between the Eso and Law and for Vanity. Every gear has a purpose. You can't just "skip" to Eso because it has a weekly limit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaedan

This is exactly like it was with Myth tokens. Darklight (Law) >> Crystal Tower (Alex Normal) >> Myth (Esoterics) >> Coil (Alex Savage)

The only difference is they are allowing us to upgrade Law and Eso gear from the get-go instead of having to wait a few patches for them to implement the upgrade/augment system.

Law is gear for Alex Normal. Eso is gear for Savage/Vanity/generally making things easier. A.Normal is for filling in the gaps between the Eso and Law and for Vanity. Every gear has a purpose. You can't just "skip" to Eso because it has a weekly limit.

---

No it isn't. Most people had at least one job, maybe two well maxed out on gear from Myth and Coil before Crystal Tower even hit there was a 4 month gap between 2.0 and Crystal Tower.

And even then, just because that is how it was then, doesn't make it acceptable now. They sure didn't maintain this in subsequent releases either, largely adhering to ilevel requirements and ilevel reward progression.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ladon

No it isn't. Most people had at least one job, maybe two well maxed out on gear from Myth and Coil before Crystal Tower even hit there was a 4 month gap between 2.0 and Crystal Tower.

---

And? What's your point? That they made it more convenient to fill out in-between gear by releasing it sooner? That's a positive, not a negative. And I'm fairly certain you're wrong about the timeframe. LotA was released when people were still gearing Myth and Coil. Maybe you're thinking the later floors?

Had CT released on time, Kaedan is right. It is the same exact progression. CT being delayed made the whole 2.0 progression clunky, with lower ilvl patch occuring after a higher ilvl patch. This is what 2.0 progression would have looked like if CT released at launch alongside Coil.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rafaelhades

Had CT released on time, Kaedan is right. It is the same exact progression. CT being delayed made the whole 2.0 progression clunky, with lower ilvl patch occuring after a higher ilvl patch. This is what 2.0 progression would have looked like if CT released at launch alongside Coil.

---

I bet you anything the new 24-man in 3.1 is still going to be a catch up patch, and drop an item level lower than savage.
So in the end, it'll still be like 2.0 with the new 24-man dropping 200 ilvl or so.

They said they didn't mind the CT delay because it let people catch up to Coil's difficulty without removing the mythology cap.
Between Alex normal and Savage, there's still a 20 ilvl difference in drops. Just like there was between Darklight and Coil.
24-mans are casual by design and we have one coming in 3.1 confirmed.

I think it's really likely we'll see it drop lower item level than our current Savage, unless the next Floors come out with 3.1 as well (which would surprise me).
I think they were fine with the catch up design of releasing harder content and then some casual content later that gives catch up gear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Allyrion

I bet you anything the new 24-man in 3.1 is still going to be a catch up patch, and drop an item level lower than savage.
So in the end, it'll still be like 2.0 with the new 24-man dropping 200 ilvl or so.

They said they didn't mind the CT delay because it let people catch up to Coil's difficulty without removing the mythology cap.
Between Alex normal and Savage, there's still a 20 ilvl difference in drops. Just like there was between Darklight and Coil.
24-mans are casual by design and we have one coming in 3.1 confirmed.

I think it's really likely we'll see it drop lower item level than our current Savage, unless the next Floors come out with 3.1 as well (which would surprise me).
I think they were fine with the catch up design of releasing harder content and then some casual content later that gives catch up gear.

---

There are always people complaining that there's no horizontal gear progression in the game and that there's not enough "variety"... so I see no problem if the 24 man drops ilvl 200.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ladon

No it isn't. Most people had at least one job, maybe two well maxed out on gear from Myth and Coil before Crystal Tower even hit there was a 4 month gap between 2.0 and Crystal Tower.

---

Are you aware that CT was delayed by a patch (it was originally planned to be in 2.0) and Coil was pushed up from 2.1 to a 2.0 release (One of the main reasons it was buggy)?

The original plan for 2.0 was:

WP/AK - i55
Philosophy/Darklight - i70
CT - i80
Mythology/AF1.5 - i90

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaedan

There are always people complaining that there's no horizontal gear progression in the game and that there's not enough "variety"... so I see no problem if the 24 man drops ilvl 200.

---

Oh I agree. I was fine with that design as well.
The more gear sources the better. All have lockouts, but the separated lockouts give various levels of progression which make it more interesting.
It's like a Diagonal Progression. Lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rafaelhades

Had CT released on time, Kaedan is right. It is the same exact progression. CT being delayed made the whole 2.0 progression clunky, with lower ilvl patch occuring after a higher ilvl patch. This is what 2.0 progression would have looked like if CT released at launch alongside Coil.

---

This is a big assumption being made that the timely release of CT would have resulted in the same iLevels. But sure I'll give this to you. That's because if I recall correctly, people absolutely hated that the CT gear was a lower iLevel than what they could just get from tomestomes.

So what did they do? They created a gear upgrade system for tomestone gear and then equalized the ilevels for CT and tomestone gear. Wow why does this sound so familiar? It's almost like someone suggested that we follow this exact gear progression that has been in place since 2.1.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ladon

This is a big assumption being made that the timely release of CT would have resulted in the same iLevels. But sure I'll give this to you. That's because if I recall correctly, people absolutely hated that the CT gear was a lower iLevel than what they could just get from tomestomes.

So what did they do? They created a gear upgrade system for tomestone gear and then equalized the ilevels for CT and tomestone gear. Wow why does this sound so familiar? It's almost like someone suggested that we follow this exact gear progression that has been in place since 2.1.

---

No they shifted their original plan around.

2.2 and 2.3 were likely going to be this:

2.2 Experts - i70
2.3 Experts/CT1 - i80
Myth/CoB - i90
CT2 - i100
Soldiery/SCoB - i110

and 2.4 and 2.5 were likely to be like this:

2.4 Experts - i90
2.5 Experts/CT2 - i100
Soldiery/SCoB - i110
CT3 - i120
Poetics/FCoB - i130

To fix several imbalances (the missing armor set between tomestone sets that was supposed to come from the now delayed CT) and problems (one of which was "Why do Coil when you can get the same ilevel gear with Myth tomes and a Relic?") caused by the shift in content release pattern, the i100 "weathered" set was added and Soldiery upgrade tokens were introduced to SCoB and the Relic upgrade system was modified.

3.0 is the first patch where they could fully implement a modified and expanded version of their originally intended upgrade path. Alex HM is taking the place of CT in the upgrade path and they are including upgradeable tomestone gear from the start.

See, this seems to me a really...biased opinion. As someone who never has time to find a static and do coil I rather enjoy that I can get i200 gear just for showing up and finding time to do my expert roulette 6/7 days a week. I only have a few hours of play time every week, as I have a job and other obligations in my life. I am basically your definition of a "casual" :)
My point is that I only have 1 level 60 at this point, and I cannot even enter Alexander. My ilevel is only 163, a mere 7 points shy of "current" content. Now instead of me having to wait even longer to get into it, I now will be able to obtain i200 gear alongside my i170 law gear, thus helping me get into the current content sooner.
Let's say you are good, and getting one piece of esoteric gear each week. That is still 11 weeks! It's not like we are getting all pieces in one week so it seems like SE is simply trying to allow players like myself to see all aspects of the game, without major grind time required.

Edit; Clarity. :p

Problem is penny, there are no really decent sources for eso tomes, and besides the cap makes it impossible to gear up. The weapon alone takes 3 weeks.

But speaking of esoterics: where they really necessary? We had law tomes for what, 4 weeks? YOu can get tome gear that's 30 item levels higher. Alexander gear? Two weeks and now you can obtain something better from roulette. Know what I mean? Most of the endgame stuff is already obsolete.

It seesm fairly logical to me. The upgraded ESO gear and Alex savage will be mixed and matched to make your bis sets. ESO gear was gated by tome limits to ease the savage progression. Law tomes were used to get you from 60 dungeon gear to the point of being able to fight Alex normal and ex primals. Alex normal gear is the only new part in all this and ilvl wise it essentially takes the place of the old ct gear progression spot while the new 24 man raid will likely put out 200 gear that can't be upgraded.

I can't really see more gear as anything but a good thing and allowing people to level by other means besides amassing tomes is always nice.

Law gear isn't obsolete. It is progression gear for new lvl 60 players. It's purpose is to allow people to fill the gaps as they level their character and it serves that purpose well.