So, I hate to open up this can of worms again, but....

I am for personal parsers.
Keep party-wide parsers as far away as possible though

I would love to have a full team DPS parser. I'd accept personal parsers, but I think that will cause more problems than having a team one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaurie

I would love to have a full team DPS parser. I'd accept personal parsers, but I think that will cause more problems than having a team one.

---

How would it cause problems, may I ask? A personal one could simply be used to evaluate and improve yourself

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zari

How would it cause problems, may I ask? A personal one could simply be used to evaluate and improve yourself

---

And a team parser could simply be used to evaluate and improve your team. See what I did there?

It's all well and good in theory, but theory and practice don't always match. Case in point:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FrejyaAthenes

Except when parties kick you for not sharing your parse numbers. Or when people lie about their numbers to avoid "harassment." Or when people just look at their parse numbers without any context or comparrison and just keep doing what they're doing thinking they're doing okay.

I'm just saying, if we're only gonna assume the worst for group parsers, we should do the same for personal ones. Only fair.

---

Yeah, we kind of need parsers. They've gone overboard with enrage mechanics, but part of the reason enrage mechanics evolved to become as tight as they are today was due to the presence of parser addons. These are extremely tight DD checks, yet we have no parsers by which to fine tune dps. I've been in groups that beat bosses more complex than the stuff in Savage Coil (not easily mind you), yet people who I can tell are just as skilled as my previous companions can't make the checks. We can learn to coordinate with one another and adjust strategy, but our brains make poor calculators.

Personal parser plus an option to share your parsing data with the group. This would help serious groups trying to progress. And make it the individual's discretion to share that data.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zari

How would it cause problems, may I ask? A personal one could simply be used to evaluate and improve yourself

---

People would come up with party rules, like ask everyone to post their result in chat.
Low result: you're kicked.
Refuse to answer, because it's meant to be a "personal" parser: you're kicked.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aezelas

People would come up with party rules, like ask everyone to post their result in chat.
Low result: you're kicked.
Refuse to answer, because it's meant to be a "personal" parser: you're kicked.

---

For every bad team that uses it as an excuse to kick people there will be ten that will use it to help their friend get better. The development team can't copy paste the good of WoW without the bad. If they want challenging enrage mechanics, they need parsers.

Parsers in general are a bad idea and lead to harassment. I know I've done it in other games in my more jerkish past, you're getting frustrated so you kick the people not pulling their weight, it can cause strain on guilds and in game friendships too. There has to be a better way to teach people how to dps, and gauge your performance without a parser. I don't pretend to have an answer but I'm sure someone more savvy in this stuff does.. it's bad enough this game is now making me worry about my own dps and I'm a freaking tank. This is the only game I've had this as a legit concern... not liking it.

yes absolutely +1.

Only idiots say otherwise.

faust savage ( the QQ topic of the day for reditards ) is a piece of piss, soo easy. But it has a stiff requirement: You must play your job optimally. People NEED to be able to gauge their performance. We all have been there when we 1st downloaded act "gosh my damage sux" *scratches head* and then begins the process of self improvement and frankly I find it terribly unfair that players do not have this ability to check their OWN dps and performance, particularly ps players who don't have access to act.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zari

How would it cause problems, may I ask? A personal one could simply be used to evaluate and improve yourself

---

Pretty much what Frejya said.

I can see parse numbers to be demanded to be told when a DPS check fails. Any negative behavior that would happen with the group parser would happen then too.

Conversely, the benefit of a group parser is someone can compare their DPS to others in neutral settings (i.e. Expert Roulette). Maybe you've been fairly happy with your damage output all along, and then get partnered up with someone else of the same job. Looks like you have better gear, you should own them right!? Wait, your DPS is only half of what they have. What?? That can't be?! OK, time to accept it and figure out what they're doing that you can emulate to improve.

With the personal parser only, this would never happen and the only time comparative data would come would be in the negative situations. Many positive comparisons would be lost.

AND if you had a personal parser only and did the ex roulette, if afterward you asked what the other DPS was doing - you'd inadvertently sound like an elitist. Even though all you want is to compare your numbers to see how you're doing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sessurea

yes absolutely +1.

Only idiots say otherwise.

faust savage ( the QQ topic of the day for reditards ) is a piece of piss, soo easy. But it has a stiff requirement: You must play your job optimally. People NEED to be able to gauge their performance. We all have been there when we 1st downloaded act "gosh my damage sux" *scratches head* and then begins the process of self improvement and frankly I find it terribly unfair that players do not have this ability to check their OWN dps and performance, particularly ps players who don't have access to act.

---

It's called combat log paper and pencil.. crazy idea right?
There's zero reason for an in game parser. Unless you're lazy.

Every time I've been kicked from a group, I count it as a blessing I didn't have to eat a 30 min penalty to keep grouping with that horrible team. But I've only been kicked once. It was for "low dps". If there was a built in Parser I'd be happy to have shown them that kicking their #2 dps wasn't going to help them... But well thank goodness there wasn't a parser guys! (Saved me trouble of sticking with the group though)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaurie

I can see parse numbers to be demanded to be told when a DPS check fails.

---

Is that really such a bad thing?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Malevicton

Is that really such a bad thing?

---

not always, but in most cases, yes.

I think people against parsers are toxic as hell. What they want goes AGAINST the spirit of a GAME---> self improvement. And for what? Their own selfish ego's fear of someone out there parsing more than themselves. I mean, are these people even serious players? Should their opinions even matter?

Se want to avoid naming and shaming with the aid of parses in df and pf. That's fine. But to not give the players a private and personal tool to help them improve is beyond belief.

It's no joke every raider uses act, hell ppl even include it in their youtube vids, nobody cares anymore, not even se. But it's unfair to ps players ( and no, im not a ps player )

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blackheart

not always, but in most cases, yes.

---

in most cases of a dps check failing, it's bad to know how much dps everyone did? Really guys?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Malevicton

in most cases of a dps check failing, it's bad to know how much dps everyone did? Really guys?

---

well, it's abit of a double edged sword. Some people will ask, see where the problem is, and try to correct it, and for those instances having parsers would be great in the moment people are willing to help out and improve upon one another. Then you have those who think it's too much of a hassle and would rather kick/remove the problem rather then trying to communicate or help, and that is where parsers are a horrid idea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Malevicton

Is that really such a bad thing?

---

You erased the rest of the post.

It would be like me quoting you and only including "Bad thing". It just makes no sense without the rest of the post. Context is everything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blackheart

well, it's abit of a double edged sword. Some people will ask, see where the problem is, and try to correct it, and for those instances having parsers would be great in the moment people are willing to help out and improve upon one another. Then you have those who think it's too much of a hassle and would rather kick/remove the problem rather then trying to communicate or help, and that is where parsers are a horrid idea.

---

The other option is ignorance. Also not sure if kicking people who can't meet dps checks is all that "horrid." Sure, it'd be better if people helped out, but by the time people are capped and doing endgame, there's a reasonable expectation for people to attempt to learn their role. If they can't do what they signed up to do, then helping them or kicking them are both viable options, one's just more polite. And it goes back to the double-standard of the other roles; if a healer isn't able to meet a heal check it's immediately obvious. Why is it okay for dps to get a pass if they wipe the group? If you have 3 dps at 800+ and one dps at 400 and fail a dps check, it's blamed on all 4 dps. That's not cool.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaurie

You erased the rest of the post.

It would be like me quoting you and only including "Bad thing". It just makes no sense without the rest of the post. Context is everything.

---

The post was pretty long to quote the whole thing, so I parsed for a thesis statement (heheh). Sorry to misrepresent you, though, it's true that I kinda did.

No problem, I think we mostly agree on the main point anyway. Which is that a DPS parser would be more useful than harmful.

A parser is a very useful toll and it is completely fair. The whole people will get booted for poor performance excuse is a joke. Healers get booted when they can't keep people alive. Tanks get booted when they continually can't hold enmity. Those roles' performance is easily measured by the eye test and they get held accountable for it. DPS gets a free pass, they are not accountable, that is what isn't fair, not the inclusion of meters. Call me elitist or any other name you want. The reason there is such a loud and vocal opposition to meters is because bad or apathetic players know they can hide as DPS, so most of them choose that role. They don't want you know how truly bad they are. Is what it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Malevicton

The other option is ignorance. Also not sure if kicking people who can't meet dps checks is all that "horrid." Sure, it'd be better if people helped out, but by the time people are capped and doing endgame, there's a reasonable expectation for people to attempt to learn their role. If they can't do what they signed up to do, then helping them or kicking them are both viable options, one's just more polite. And it goes back to the double-standard of the other roles; if a healer isn't able to meet a heal check it's immediately obvious. Why is it okay for dps to get a pass if they wipe the group? If you have 3 dps at 800+ and one dps at 400 and fail a dps check, it's blamed on all 4 dps. That's not cool.

---

oh don't misunderstand, i don't disagree with you, i'm neither for or against parsers personally. In some cases i can see them being very handy in finding out problems, but on the other hand it CAN cause alot of drama/stress for other players both early on and endgame. The major issue isn't the parser itself, but the community and how they'll handle them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nague

why should we not be able to see everyones dps and kick the low dps when low dps is making the whole group fail?


If a healer doesnt heal, you can kick them and if a tank doesnt get mobs under control and have them running around, you kikc them as well, so i want to kick dps that dont do their job.

---

If someones dps is so low it's causing dps check to not be met, you don't really need a parser to see it, at least in DF. For bleeding edge statics, they have their own tools, and help each other improve to meet dps checks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cylla

A healer not healing and a tank not tanking is one thing, kicking a dps because they aren't doing the dps YOU want is abuse. There are people who will abuse parsing to the point where if someone even slightly doing 50 less then the rest of the group, "Your a scrub" and there the kick. That is abuse in my books. Someone doing slightly less and kicking them is retarded, someone doing a WHOLE lot less then the rest isn't. But since people can't treat a parser the right way it should only be given to see your own dps, not others.

---

See i don't get this at all.
People keep trowing the whole "you will be harassed" reason yet i played games that had it either build ingame or addons for that and that almost never happened.

Why not just allow it, let people do their thing and report the harassers.

Quote:

---

For bleeding edge statics, they have their own tools, and help each other improve to meet dps checks.

---

Yeah. They are called parsers.

If people are going to primarily use parsers to kick people and wreck df parties, then i'd rather they not be included.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kallera

If people are going to primarily use parsers to kick people and wreck df parties, then i'd rather they not be included.

---

But they are not.
All this is a big illusion made out of some weird paranoia.

Look at other games, there is proof this happens way less then some people seem to think.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Asierid

Yeah. They are called parsers.

---

Parser is just one of many tools they use, Blue Garter themselves even said the tool they use that helps them most, is recording their fights and watching them afterwards to see where they can do better, voip is also used amongst them for faster communication of tactics. I'd say by now that most bleeding edge statics hardly bother with parsers, since most of them know their jobs inside and out, and how to optimize dps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cylla

A healer not healing and a tank not tanking is one thing, kicking a dps because they aren't doing the dps YOU want is abuse. There are people who will abuse parsing to the point where if someone even slightly doing 50 less then the rest of the group, "Your a scrub" and there the kick. That is abuse in my books. Someone doing slightly less and kicking them is retarded, someone doing a WHOLE lot less then the rest isn't. But since people can't treat a parser the right way it should only be given to see your own dps, not others.

---

I won't argue about people abusing others with information provided by parsers... it happens.

However, you are very wrong about kicking a DPS for not putting out enough damage being abuse. It's no different than any other role not performing their job satisfactorily. A DPS not putting out enough damage is the exact same thing as a tank losing threat or a healer not healing well enough. If the DPS check requires all 4 DPS to put out 1k+... then that's the requirement, plain and simple. If you can't meet that requirement and it's causing the team to fail, then you are the problem and kicking is a perfectly valid result (from Party Finder).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cylla

A healer not healing and a tank not tanking is one thing, kicking a dps because they aren't doing the dps YOU want is abuse. There are people who will abuse parsing to the point where if someone even slightly doing 50 less then the rest of the group, "Your a scrub" and there the kick. That is abuse in my books. Someone doing slightly less and kicking them is retarded, someone doing a WHOLE lot less then the rest isn't. But since people can't treat a parser the right way it should only be given to see your own dps, not others.

---

LOL, have you seen the recent content for this game, its not what I want, its what the content designer wants.

dps not doing 1.2k dps? Nope, you wont get into alex savage, bye.
Bismarck also is just a dps check and nothing more, since we speak about erecent content.




a dps not meeting thje average dps requirement is exactly the same as a healer not healing more than the enemy does damage or the tasnk not producing more emnity than required.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Assirra

See i don't get this at all.
People keep trowing the whole "you will be harassed" reason yet i played games that had it either build ingame or addons for that and that almost never happened.

Why not just allow it, let people do their thing and report the harassers.

---

Maybe you just got lucky but I've seen it enough. Maybe not here in XIV, but I have seen it a lot in games like World of Warcraft or Guild Wars 2. Heck, I've seen it happen in XI towards the end which was just sicking to see. And that why I'm against people seeing others dps. Parsers should be allowed on a personal level, so that you, yourself, can check your own dps. Not others. Far be it to me, it just seems like people can't use their brains anymore and fall back on an app to tell them who is under performing and that may not even be the case. Just because someone doing less dps, doesn't mean they aren't performing. One person can pull out a crap load of dps and die, while the person who doing slightly under may be doing a hole hell of a lot better. See what I'm saying?

But in the end, what does this all matter anyway? We all know that someone already built a parser for this game. We already know people are using it, abusing it, etc. Again, rarely are they used for what they should be and again, you just got lucky I suppose.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cylla

snippity

---

That puts you in a minority then. Most people don't have problems with harassment and parsing. When they do is far more rare than when they don't.

Also, we dont need a parser because we have a parser is a lame excuse for obvious reasons

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cylla

Maybe you just got lucky but I've seen it enough. Maybe not here in XIV, but I have seen it a lot in games like World of Warcraft or Guild Wars 2. Heck, I've seen it happen in XI towards the end which was just sicking to see. And that why I'm against people seeing others dps. Parsers should be allowed on a personal level, so that you, yourself, can check your own dps. Not others. Far be it to me, it just seems like people can't use their brains anymore and fall back on an app to tell them who is under performing and that may not even be the case. Just because someone doing less dps, doesn't mean they aren't performing. One person can pull out a crap load of dps and die, while the person who doing slightly under may be doing a hole hell of a lot better. See what I'm saying?


But in the end, what does this all matter anyway? We all know that someone already built a parser for this game. We already know people are using it, abusing it, etc. Again, rarely are they used for what they should be and again, you just got lucky I suppose.

---

Oh boy, this is the new excuse now?
I got lucky? I got over a decade in mmo's and i got lucky?
You are so far overreacting it's no longer funny.
I take my leave here, a wall is a better communication partner, at least that one doesn't try to turn facts into "luck".

Yes it does need to be added. A personal parser should have been added a long time ago. Also as someone who dpsed a long time in a mmo that did show personal dps to others, issues were less than people fear but im fine with it just being personal too.

I'll say what I said in another thread on the note of parsers:

The world and social network in this game isn't going to suddenly come crashing down because of the addition of a damage meter. People will be jerks regardless and I think the impact people think it will have on the community is a bit overblown. You're already beholden to a standard without parsers (ilvl and experience), the only thing this will add is that you will have numbers to back up your standing or not, because let's face it, people can get higher ilvl and still have lots of room for improvement, to put it kindly.

Getting mechanics down via practice is good and all, but you should optimize your DPS along with it and not having a meter really leaves it up in the air of how well you are performing and how consistent it is. It's a matter of better telling you what direction to go in terms of where you can improve. In the end, mods don't kill game communities, and this type of harassment isn't as prevalent in games that have a meter available as people claim.

Be it personal or not, having one in game would be advantageous to any player.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Assirra

Oh boy, this is the new excuse now?
I got lucky? I got over a decade in mmo's and i got lucky?
You are so far overreacting it's no longer funny.
I take my leave here, a wall is a better communication partner, at least that one doesn't try to turn facts into "luck".

---

Shh. It's ok. How dare we judge the individual when it comes to completing the task as a group and fail to dps checks...numerous times. How dare we say a person must carry their weight, just like everyone else. What is this nonsense?

/s

The people on both sides will never see eye to eye on this. One side wants everyone to be accountable for their performance while participating in group content. The other side only wants some people(healers & tanks) to be held accountable while participating in group content. The crazy thing about this is that the people who don't want everyone treated equally have taken the position that those those that want it equal are mean and elitist. If more than half of the people in your group want to wait for someone to replace you because they think your performance is so poor they cannot complete the encounter with you, how is that wrong? If you are under-performing and don't understand why, you could post a parse and ask for some help. I know some tool might insult you, so what. Plenty of good people would fall over themselves trying to give you quality advice on how to improve. How can people help you if they don't know what you are doing and when.

When I ran cutting edge raiding guilds, I took moms who had never played MMOs and turned them into top performers after seeing just once parse from an entire raid. It was either gear, rotation or situational awareness. I could tell them why they were dying, where the rotation was wrong ect. They were very grateful and were able to play with enormous confidence afterwards. I don't understand why anyone deny themselves such a useful tool. Wait here is answer that makes sense. They have no interested in putting in any effort to improve themselves and without meters no one has proof.

People get kicked more often for failing mechanics than for low DPS. In the situation where I do find somebody performing poorly I usually try to help. If they are polite and accept said help I have no issue. When they act like tools and refuse they usually get kicked.

An official parser is not needed. The actual parser is tolerated if you use it for your static or yourself. Just don't use it for blame other people.