Monk 3.0 CHAKRA UNLEASHED

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Originally Posted by Mugetsu13

snip.

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I would have to agree with the others in regards to using meditation while there is no down time or during a normal rotation. You just lose that much time using meditation when in fact the down times are rather long enough for you to form shift + mash meditation button and still be able to continue dpsing like normal OR if down time is short, you can save your gl rather than use meditation.

The only thing I would consider doing this is when
1. AF2 and I'm out TP and no one to give me TP regen.
2. Invigorate is on cd and will take a while to come back up and have no choice but to stack meditate and use purification.

even then I would probably use 1-2 meditate per rotation because thats how much time you are allowed to stack per rotation without losing GL. (remember if you have to demo you lose 2secs already in gl) Including, you have to move away from boss due to mechanics.

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Originally Posted by monchkinz

even then I would probably use 1-2 meditate per rotation because thats how much time you are allowed to stack per rotation without losing GL. (remember if you have to demo you lose 2secs already in gl) Including, you have to move away from boss due to mechanics.

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You can get 3 stacks of chakra in a rotation after both Demolish/Snap Punch with about a second to spare before having to reapply GL3.


If I'm under 100-150 TP and invig isn't off cooldown soon I just build 5 stacks in the next 2 rotations, no point in waiting before you're completely dry and waste time+dps because you're not able to queue skills properly.

Oh yeh forgot its 1.5sec per med. So yes you can stack 3 per sp and maybe 2 if you just demo.. never happend to me so i never had done it.

I think I'm doing something horribly wrong.

I went from being my statics top DPS to being almost consistently last now.

My ilvl is 180 without a Ravana weapon and in A1 I was only pulling 666 on our last kill.

The opening I use is the one in the topic and pretty much was already using all the tips for A1 stated.

I'm just confused because it's not like I'm doing anything inherently wrong but to pull such low DPS I must be =\

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Originally Posted by Ryan2EZ

I think I'm doing something horribly wrong.

I went from being my statics top DPS to being almost consistently last now.

My ilvl is 180 without a Ravana weapon and in A1 I was only pulling 666 on our last kill.

The opening I use is the one in the topic and pretty much was already using all the tips for A1 stated.

I'm just confused because it's not like I'm doing anything inherently wrong but to pull such low DPS I must be =\

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you just need to learn the fight, i lied, hahaha so i thought you meant ravana, GG but yeah a1 is fairly fun, after the missle explodes you have 2~3 globals before you need to tornado kick or else you will lose the chance to also save your elixir field or at least howling fist for when the adds spawn that way you get to hit 3x things with a howling first or elixir field

A1, like many 3.0 fights, is extremely group based, if your group cant put out mad deeps, then your not gonna be looking so top tier either, that said, you havent exactly given us a lot of info to go on, so its a little hard to tell

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Originally Posted by MiruWest

Did he say this recently or you speaking about interviews from months ago?

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i dont remember when exactly, but it was quite some time ago, some time in early patch 2.5 i think

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Originally Posted by Zamii

A1, like many 3.0 fights, is extremely group based, if your group cant put out mad deeps, then your not gonna be looking so top tier either, that said, you havent exactly given us a lot of info to go on, so its a little hard to tell

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Yeah I wasn't the one parsing so It's not like I can export but or group make up was DRK, DRk, Blm, Blm, Drg, Mnk, Whm, Ast.

The Blms were always around 200-300 dps above me somehow.

My rotation is tight and I know I'm doing it right but I somehow just can't push out the dps.

Like I said pre-hw I was top DPS and had my rotation down to a t but something seems to have just changed where I can't go as nuts anymore.

I'm going to try tomorrow on a training dummy and post some results.

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Originally Posted by Ryan2EZ

Yeah I wasn't the one parsing so It's not like I can export but or group make up was DRK, DRk, Blm, Blm, Drg, Mnk, Whm, Ast.

The Blms were always around 200-300 dps above me somehow.

My rotation is tight and I know I'm doing it right but I somehow just can't push out the dps.

Like I said pre-hw I was top DPS and had my rotation down to a t but something seems to have just changed where I can't go as nuts anymore.

I'm going to try tomorrow on a training dummy and post some results.

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my best guess is, you maybe stood on one of the puddles left by the adds, they reduce your damage by a LOT, that or they give you to many stacks (i think its 5?), if that wasnt the case then im out of ideas.

I can't think of anything else to help you but the more times the boss flies up the lower your overall dps will be. Down time is just hard on monks even with all our down time skills... Other thing i did not mention is use pb when available to kick start up your dps when boss drops down

Just hit 996 in A1 last night... Bummed I didn't hit quad digits at the end. Gotta tighten it up more. Any other monks doing much more in there?

i can do around 1050~1100 playing perfectly no pot or food

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Originally Posted by ncx24

i can do around 1050~1100 playing perfectly no pot or food

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Good to know. I'm i182 with ravex wep and free Alex slaying ring and I usually parse the highest in most any grp im in, but I know I can do more if I really focus or have a'perfect run' like you mentioned. This is all without food or pots as well.

I can't stand Tornado kick.

It's animation is too long to make it viable as a finisher since you also have to factor the party's DPS speed before the enemy leaves/dies since the attack takes forever to register.

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Originally Posted by Phireblast

I can't stand Tornado kick.

It's animation is too long to make it viable as a finisher since you also have to factor the party's DPS speed before the enemy leaves/dies since the attack takes forever to register.

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Which boss are you having trouble with? I do agree about the animation and the "delayed" hit

@daega
I average about 1000-1100 in AF1 last night. No pot no food as well.

Update 16/7: AF1 TK timings/saving gl

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Originally Posted by monchkinz

Which boss are you having trouble with? I do agree about the animation and the "delayed" hit

Update 16/7: AF1 TK timings/saving gl

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It's more of an "in general" thing. Though to be honest, I still haven't learned the percentages of all the 3.0 boss mechanic shift moments.

just took a closer look at the guide, and you personally dont seem to understand how the fracture in rotation works, it shouldn't be used as it falls like other dots, it could just be im miss interpreting your post, but if thats the case it probably needs clarifying anyway..

anyway, i find it easiest to use fracture in rotation right before dragon kick, if the DK debuff will last at least 1 more GCD, ie 3 seconds minimum

How much of a dps increase are you guys who use fracture seeing?

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Originally Posted by MiruWest

How much of a dps increase are you guys who use fracture seeing?

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due to the timing on our buffs and such, i think i worked it out to be roughly ~30-40 dps increase when i looked at it over not using it, the skill itself is usually in the realm of 80 dps iirc

i know a lot of people are hesitant to use fracture now (myself included), but the extra tick on demolish makes a huge difference for fracture vs non fracture.

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Originally Posted by Zamii

due to the timing on our buffs and such, i think i worked it out to be roughly ~30-40 dps increase when i looked at it over not using it, the skill itself is usually in the realm of 80 dps iirc

i know a lot of people are hesitant to use fracture now (myself included), but the extra tick on demolish makes a huge difference for fracture vs non fracture.

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Are you actually using Fracture in your raid rotation? If so how is it on TP even with Purification? Do you find you keep it up easily with everything going on?

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Originally Posted by Tila

Kinda obvious why Monk would be highest DPS. They offer the least utility of any other melee DPS. If they don't have the highest dps then they are pointless to take unless you dont have a DRK. Is any other class invalidated entirely by the inclusion of another class?

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That's how DRGs felt, especially when NIN released. The only buff we had to another party member was for the BRD. Lowest damage melee, positional issues, MDEF deaths that couldn't be avoided...And then the buffs happened, bringing us a bit more in line with the other melees. Then 3.0 happened. I am of the impression that MNK will get a little more oopmh at some point. But remember, other classes have felt your pain.

Although I main DRG, I did play MNK quite a bit throughout all of 2.0, and I'm a bit surprised that DRG edges out now. Still, I believe that there will be minor tweaks that will happen to even the scales a bit more. That said, I don't really think MNK is in a BAD position. We'll see what Alex Savage brings, I guess...

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Originally Posted by MiruWest

Are you actually using Fracture in your raid rotation? If so how is it on TP even with Purification? Do you find you keep it up easily with everything going on?

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i come really, REALLY close to TP starve without song on A1, thats with forbidden chakra tho, A2 i dont use fracture, A3 theres enough downtime that i can still use fracture without any worry, A4 will depend how much i get sucked into solitude, if im not sucked in then i'll usually need a TP song, thats still using forbidden tho.

edit: i should probably note my base gcd with my current gear is 2.39s, far to much skill speed for my liking, i'de personally prefer non at all

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Originally Posted by Zamii

just took a closer look at the guide, and you personally dont seem to understand how the fracture in rotation works, it shouldn't be used as it falls like other dots, it could just be im miss interpreting your post, but if thats the case it probably needs clarifying anyway..

anyway, i find it easiest to use fracture in rotation right before dragon kick, if the DK debuff will last at least 1 more GCD, ie 3 seconds minimum

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if you are talking about the opener i did mention its up to you whether you want to use it at that time or not. I did mention dk will fall off if you do. But the bonus of using fracture at that point is bfb is still up so it will get the buff from it.

I also mentioned in between rotations you can use fracture when demo still has 4-5secs left and you can use it as a filler skill before reapply demo again.

If it needs clarification i will clarify it later when i get home :)

Happy to report the problem with my dps or rotation.

Things were just wonky and wasn't accurately showing DPS.

Pulled 1150 on a target dummy earlier.

With DRGs though you have to consider that they now also have a crucial buff to juggle. I haven't played the job beyond 50, but from what I gather it's even harder to optimise than GL3 - especially since we got Form Shift. They have to decide to extend or consume the timer and unless you never have to leave the enemy I imagine it's quite difficult to maintain. So it kind of makes sense that they'd be rewarded as one of the best dps for pulling it off.

When it comes to utility though, Battle Litany does kind of dwarf every other dps utility not named Trick Attack. With Manta and DK, monks are kind of the "safety" melee - and that's about all they offer utility wise. DK is still a great debuff, but DRKs now also get an int-down debuff which - having leveled one myself - they will be using very often. I don't mind MNKs getting mostly situational stuff - Form Shift and Meditation are skills I love - but it's a shame at least one of them couldn't have more utility.

Purify has proven more useful than I initially thought since Alexander was released, but perhaps they should've modified it to maybe be an AOE TP restore too. Like give you the 300, and maybe 200 or so to people in a radius around you. Tanks especially would love this - and it kind of synergises with the old fact that MNKs were kings of extended fights with little downtime. The only problem is it may limit Paeon / Rook turret's usefulness. Just throwing an idea out :)

Regardless of the DPS, I agree that Monks should have another skill make them useful in Raid. Like already said, DRK can now replace the Dragon Kick and other physical DPS can do Mantra (even if not as strong) as cross-class skill. Even if EF is very powerfull for such a short CD, I don't think Monks are that much superior to other Melee in AoE Burst (for adds for example). So, if nothing is done, other Melee will be prefered in Raid groups.

Like I said in another thread, if FC could be launched anytime from 1 to 5 chakras where the stacks would multiply the potency, this skill could be used far more often in Raid. Of course, base potency would have to be reduced.
Or even better, give us another alternative to gain Chakra stacks. For example make Meditation Procs in certain conditions (off-GCD procs). That way we would at least compete with our DPS.
I don't really know what would be best without overpowering Monks. Just throwing ideas out too ;P

Put TK back to 500 potency and make its damage apply at the start of the animation and not end. Granted it's 500 potency but would we REALLY use it on cd if so? 500 potency worth the drop in GL3?

If Hak Matic says that Monks can't touch Dragoons, or that his Monk can't touch his Dragoon then I'm inclined to believe him.

I've seen Hak Matic's monk in 2.X, seen his parses and I personally think he's probably the top MNK I've seen second to maybe Lucrezia's Monk and maybe one or two others. If he says MNK is underpowered then I'm inclined to believe him.

That said, I do think Monk is strong enough to bring into a raid environment. If there were any changes I'd like for the class they would be.

1. Outside of Combat Meditation automatically gives 5 Stacks for QoL purposes.

2. Either increase the potency of Shoulder Tackle to 130 Potency, or change its CD time to 20 Seconds to match Leg Sweep.

3. Increase Duration of Internal Release to 20 or 25 Seconds

4. Some change to both Arms of Destroyer and One Ilm Punch, (Put One Ilm Punch oGCD, I mean everything about it is like an oGCD skill, Low Potency and some sort of extra debuff effect).

OR

5. Make Drk a Blunt damage dealer and modify Delirium to include Blunt resistance down.

That said, I don't think any of our new skills need a buff.

Maybe a reduction in Tornado Kick's Time (I would personally like to see it on the GCD) and some sort of way to make it so FC doesn't clip the GCD.

One Ilm Punch lol... the one skill that hasn't been on my hotbars for pretty much all of my MNK career.

Thanks for the love Ossom! I agree Monk is not in a bad spot, they just arent in a good spot. All we needed was mch to be blunt damage... :(. With that being said they are viable and DK will be good for progression. But what happens after progression, especially for top tier raid teams. They go for raid dps, speed runs, etc. Guess who is not going be brought? Your monks. Why you ask? Because their damage and utility are outmatched by the other melee. Only A2 have I beat my Drg in dps, and even then its not by much lol. Monk just needs a little love, along with a little AoE love for my ninjas. Dragoon is in a solid spot. Either way I will continue to play both mnk and drg. I enjoy both classes very much, but with that lies the problem, not everyone will or can play dragoon to a high level. Some people just like monk and wanna play monk, and for those people it really sucks because they are essentially holding their team back from alot of raid dps because of playing monk, and no one likes holding their team back. This is why I think monk needs a minor buff, nothing major along with a small aoe buff for nins.

Honestly, I'd say if they buff mnks ST damage, they would probably have to buff ninjas ST damage as well if nin and mnk are running about the same. I think mnk parses a bit higher in damage on a dummy.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

Honestly, I'd say if they buff mnks ST damage, they would probably have to buff ninjas ST damage as well if nin and mnk are running about the same. I think mnk parses a bit higher in damage on a dummy.

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Yes you are correct until you go inside of raid and there is a warrior in there putting up the slashing buff for nin's then its a slightly different story, Im also not so sure if nin need a straight up damage boost to single target when comparing to monk a Ninja.
Ninja still brings alot to the table utility wise Goad trick attack even their new aggro reducing skills but monk however brings Nothing to the table to help synergy of the raid group dps wise unless you wanna be old school and run double monk but even then that cannot compete with Ninja / Dragoon i do agree with Hak though Ninja could do with healthier aoe move set monk just blows them out of the water as it stands aoe wise, like hak i play both to high level though i slightly prefer Monk i do feel Dragoon feel can be very rewarding now when you keep Botd and pull off your 4th's

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Originally Posted by Leonus

Honestly, I'd say if they buff mnks ST damage, they would probably have to buff ninjas ST damage as well if nin and mnk are running about the same. I think mnk parses a bit higher in damage on a dummy.

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Well if we're only factoring in ST then you also have to consider that monk has the largest penalty for solo damage as well as long breaks causing stacks to fall. I think that's a decent trade off on ninja being able to fire back so quickly. However, overall raid utility should never be discounted. Balancing between solo and party/raid is a tricky thing. I think if the choice has to be made overall party/raid balance is most important.

I normally don't like getting in the middle of X class is behind and needs adjustments, but since monk is all I do I feel I have to say something. If we just compare single target I feel the 3 DPS are pretty well balanced, but once you factor in raid benefits I think monk is just a little behind. I'm sure there's a number of adjustments that can be made, and I'm sure we'll see something in 3.05. DK and Mantra are great and all, but people do factor in heavily on raid DPS benefits which we provide none while both dragoon and ninja do. If monk had something that benefited raid damage I think most would be fine with the overall state. Right now I think it's in a tricky position, and I'm not really sure what I'd say I think the best route is between increasing monk damage next to giving utility or changing some of our existing utility.

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Originally Posted by Ossom

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I've seen Hak Matic's monk in 2.X, seen his parses and I personally think he's probably the top MNK I've seen second to maybe Lucrezia's Monk and maybe one or two others. If he says MNK is underpowered then I'm inclined to believe him.

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lucrezia's monk actually... well kinda sucks, at least from a top tier progression standpoint, DnT (now elysium) monks are far better, but can still improve slightly, that being said, even if i was world #1 highest dps monk, i would still try to push myself further, its that mentality that keeps the top tier monks at the top tier

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Originally Posted by Zamii

lucrezia's monk actually... well kinda sucks, at least from a top tier progression standpoint, DnT (now elysium) monks are far better, but can still improve slightly, that being said, even if i was world #1 highest dps monk, i would still try to push myself further, its that mentality that keeps the top tier monks at the top tier

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Damn, I always thought those guys were pretty good, but you can only get so good. We're all still human after all . But the drive to strive for a perfect dps run... is what makes good dps a great one.

Can mantra just give 5% healing and 5% damage to the raid every 3 minutes instead of 20% healing :D? Please and thanks!

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Originally Posted by Hakmatic

Can mantra just give 5% healing and 5% damage to the raid every 3 minutes instead of 20% healing :D? Please and thanks!

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That would be neat, don't play a Monk any more but the 20% healing is pretty situational although very useful on certain progression bosses. If there was a small damage boost component it would at least be used regularly.

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Originally Posted by Hakmatic

Can mantra just give 5% healing and 5% damage to the raid every 3 minutes instead of 20% healing :D? Please and thanks!

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Why not 10% healing, 10% damage for like...10-15 seconds. Or something like that? On a 3 minute CD.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

Why not 10% healing, 10% damage for like...10-15 seconds. Or something like that? On a 3 minute CD.

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Idk man, I'm high and 10% sounded OP lol Never going happen though unless the people that cross class it doesnt get the + damage.

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Originally Posted by Hakmatic

Idk man, I'm high and 10% sounded OP lol

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Can be increase crit like litany? Or increase attack/spell speed. I'd like to say increase det as well but det has been nerfed and i doubt 5% increase det will be as good as 5% damage xD