Serious Concern, Need Help; MCH not welcome to Alexander

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Originally Posted by Evangela

I'm not welcoming them anywhere if they don't stop using that knock back ability.

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that is a dps loss to not use Blank in boss fight and The Vault where all the mobs cannot be knock back

I'll be a Machinist most likely this whole expansion. It JUST came out. I'm sure there will be tweaks that will get done.

I'm sure this is gonna get me flamed, but I don't join any Bis ex groups that have MCH in, because all the ones I've seen have been so underwhelming. Please buff them, SE, so I don't have to avoid them like the plague. It's not their fault their class sucks... probably.

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

Why does firing a blank do damage anyway

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Obviously you've never seen damage a blank can do. I have witnessed blanks creating 3 inch diameter holes in targets and heard of actors being killed by blanks they thought were harmless.

The biggest problem with MCH, as well as with DRK and AST, is the vast majority of people who play the job are BAD (many DRK and AST I've played with admit this is their first tank/heal job, so...). I cringe when I get a DRK, AST or MCH in the DF, not because their job is bad but because the players are. While I don't know any good DRK yet (I main WAR, so I don't play with a ton of other tanks in the first place) I do know some good AST and MCH and enjoy playing with them.

Yes, MCH and BRD need a slight buff to them, mostly QoL buffs, but they don't need a buff like what they want. Mobility comes at a cost, and I have seen BRD do top or almost top DPS in Bis EX, and many I've run with are at the middle in Rav EX (haven't run with MCH in the EXs yet, but know they do similar damage as BRD).

MCH (and AST and DRK) have a bad rap mostly because the job is new and the people who play them are bad.

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Originally Posted by Derio

One time I got 2 Machinists in my DR and it was the most painful, longest dungeon run ever. The burn was so bad I asked the WM to stay in cleric stance most of the time.

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As someone leveling a MCH ... I dread being grouped up with another MCH

Good luck getting SE to buff you.

Parsers are against the ToS. They won't know how low they are compared to the others.

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Originally Posted by RamzaRuglia

I agree though there is a lot of "bad" players out there too, but people seem to be focusing on BRD/MCH being the weak link. I've had no problems keeping up with DPS as BRD thus far, and MCH (again, relatively). However, people assume it is BRD/MCH when they fail a DPS check, and not blaming the melee hitting wrong mob with debuff in BisEx for example. We're just the easy scapegoat, especially since BRD at least has been officially acknowledged as under performing.

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Just from watching aggro bars as a tank (and NEVER seeing Quelling used), my experience is its almost always the MCH/BRD/BLM not pulling their weight. Most bad BRD I see just don't keep up their DoTs (which confuses me) or use songs that aren't needed (healer at full MP? Better use Ballad) and while I don't know the MCH debuffs yet, I see a lot of MCH promoting their turrets at random...which is a pretty decent DPS loss in-and-of-itself. I'm not actually sure why most BLM I get in DF are bad...they just are and its absolutely baffling me.
That being said, I do know when a melee or SMN isn't pulling their weight because I know their rotations and what they should be doing, and I have seen some BAD melee and SMN (like this one SMN who barely kept DoTs up and never Baned groups...why???)

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Originally Posted by myahele

As someone leveling a MCH ... I dread being grouped up with another MCH

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I just got my MCH to level 59 today and my longest runs have been with another machinist hands down.
I do everything I can and have 5 HUGE macros in my kit to make it more consistent/easier to pump out damage confidently... and even then I am outdamaged by a bloody dragoon using a level 110 spear spamming his first rotation without doing anything else. OH AND I KNOW THAT ROTIATION CAUSE I LEVELED DRAGOON TO 34 JUST FOR BLOOD FOR BLOOD! I KNOW WHAT I SAW! He did MORE damage than me.

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Originally Posted by IfritReborn

I'm getting tired of this. I fail to see how Alexander will be any different. I see PF groups like this ALL THE TIME! The answer is not and should not be "Get friends."

http://i.imgur.com/5kvKA91.jpg?1

I didn't level this class to be omitted from 40% of the PF groups! I didn't level this class to be ridiculed and made fun of upon even entering a group! I didn't level this class to be kicked from content just for being a MCH! Fix this damn class!

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This is how it is. I've been seeing this for over a week solid of EXCLUSIVE party finder group DPS excluding BRD/MCH.

I am so glad you got this screenie, I should take one next time I log on... it is real and it is RAMPANT.

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

I just got my MCH to level 59 today and my longest runs have been with another machinist hands down.
I do everything I can and have 5 HUGE macros in my kit to make it more consistent/easier to pump out damage confidently... and even then I am outdamaged by a bloody dragoon using a level 110 spear spamming his first rotation without doing anything else. OH AND I KNOW THAT ROTIATION CAUSE I LEVELED DRAGOON TO 34 JUST FOR BLOOD FOR BLOOD! I KNOW WHAT I SAW! He did MORE damage than me.




This is how it is. I've been seeing this for over a week solid of EXCLUSIVE party finder group DPS excluding BRD/MCH.

I am so glad you got this screenie, I should take one next time I log on... it is real and it is RAMPANT.

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Yea that's becasue people are stupid BRD/MCH can do them just Fine hell i've had groups where there was both a BRD and MCH yes they need buffs but those PF groups are just *insert expletive here*.

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

This is how it is. I've been seeing this for over a week solid of EXCLUSIVE party finder group DPS excluding BRD/MCH.

I am so glad you got this screenie, I should take one next time I log on... it is real and it is RAMPANT.

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Happen to me like yesterday, a good 4-5 ravana ex pt up and MCH are not in the list

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Yes, MCH and BRD need a slight buff to them, mostly QoL buffs, but they don't need a buff like what they want. Mobility comes at a cost, and I have seen BRD do top or almost top DPS in Bis EX, and many I've run with are at the middle in Rav EX (haven't run with MCH in the EXs yet, but know they do similar damage as BRD).

MCH (and AST and DRK) have a bad rap mostly because the job is new and the people who play them are bad.

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Oh wow... this is the biggest, most steaming bullshit-post i've come across the last 2 years i've spent on these forums, well done sire!

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Originally Posted by PArcher

The biggest problem with MCH, as well as with DRK and AST, is the vast majority of people who play the job are BAD (many DRK and AST I've played with admit this is their first tank/heal job, so...). I cringe when I get a DRK, AST or MCH in the DF, not because their job is bad but because the players are. While I don't know any good DRK yet (I main WAR, so I don't play with a ton of other tanks in the first place) I do know some good AST and MCH and enjoy playing with them.

Yes, MCH and BRD need a slight buff to them, mostly QoL buffs, but they don't need a buff like what they want. Mobility comes at a cost, and I have seen BRD do top or almost top DPS in Bis EX, and many I've run with are at the middle in Rav EX (haven't run with MCH in the EXs yet, but know they do similar damage as BRD).

MCH (and AST and DRK) have a bad rap mostly because the job is new and the people who play them are bad.

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You're right. Anyone who's not playing those classes are really good at the game. I don't know why I've never seen that before until now.

Sadly though, if your BRD is top DPS, that says more about the other players.

I think one way to improve MCH for endgame is to remove the cooldown on Quick Reload or reduce it to at least 0.5 second cooldown.

they advertise MCH to be a Job that builds on their Ammo to perform decent DPS but limits the Job to how their ammo and made it depend on RNG for most of their DPS.

Quick Reload can become MCH main ammo builder while Reload serves as instant max ammo buff.

This may help MCH for endgame but how much is something I don't know.

I haven't played MCH or DRK yet so I can't say what I think about them. As far as I can tell about AST though, it is pretty straightforward to play. Not sure how it's possible to play bad; yet imo the cards really need some tweaks. The buffs from the cards simply aren't enough to make up for the cooldown times(60 seconds between cards if you royal road) and RNG.

But honestly, whether the new classes are underpowered or not doesn't really matter at this point. Why? Because the general public has already decided that they're underpowered. One way or another, it's because of the way they were designed. Hopefully, if they still have this stigma after more testing, the devs will do something about it.

We shouldn't forget that Flare/Holy got nerfed too. (Flare has reduced damage each time it gets used is what I get from the tooltip) As a BLM I just use FireIII, Fire (until I get firestarter), FireIII (If I get firestarter)/Fire, then Transpose when I run out of MP, BlizIII (even though it's cast time is long it pretty much refills MP almost fully), and then just straight back to FireIII to get Astral Fire III stack. (it's even better when I use FireIII and Firestarter is already in effect)[Yea, I know I have to start utilizing Limit Break when the party calls for it, regardless of my own safety]

...but yea, I also don't have Blank on my main skill rotation on my MCH anymore. (it's clean shot now...and honestly I like that better)[my rotation for MCH at this point, lvl36/37, is Hot Shot>Lead Shot>Split Shot>Slug Shot (if Enhanced Slug Shot is active)>Clean Shot (the last one only if Cleaner Shot is active)>Heartbreak (when it's appropriate)

IMO: I think all the classes that got 'balanced' need to be actually balanced again.

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Originally Posted by Solaria_Luna

We shouldn't forget that Flare/Holy got nerfed too. (Flare has reduced damage each time it gets used is what I get from the tooltip) As a BLM I just use FireIII, Fire (until I get firestarter), FireIII (If I get firestarter)/Fire, then Transpose when I run out of MP, BlizIII (even though it's cast time is long it pretty much refills MP almost fully), and then just straight back to FireIII to get Astral Fire III stack. (it's even better when I use FireIII and Firestarter is already in effect)[Yea, I know I have to start utilizing Limit Break when the party calls for it, regardless of my own safety]

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I need to state that on my SCH spamming a 170 potency broil (and nothing else) I consistently deal more damage than my mch does with DoT, turret and full damage combo. A WHM with Stone 3 even after holy nerfs spamming their 210 potency stone 3 will outdamage a MCH for sure if my broil spam hits more...

>_<

THAt is how bad off mch is.

Hopefully a buff to all 3 new classes are coming soon at the same time as Alexander.

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Originally Posted by Derio

Hopefully a buff to all 3 new classes are coming soon at the same time as Alexander.

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I agree, it would be lovely if they would do it about or at the same time.

I play as MCH as well and I've heard people joke that tanks can do more damage than we can. MCH does need some kinda of buff/balance to it. That said - this always happens with new jobs. They have only tested them, and now we are giving them real experience out there. They have always had to either buff up or decrease the things new jobs can do so I have no doubt that Yoshi and his team will fix this issue and balance these jobs.

After all I have waited 5 years for my gunner class, I'm not going to stop playing it now.

I'm pretty confident that MCH and especially BRDs will get the buff they deserve, but when will that be? Who knows.

I can understand SE observing the community and compiling data to make the necessary changes. It's only been 2+ weeks since the game was released, but it's a shame that they plan on doing so after Alexander.

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Originally Posted by myahele

I can understand SE observing the community and compiling data to make the necessary changes. It's only been 2+ weeks since the game was released, but it's a shame that they plan on doing so after Alexander.

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To be fair, until you put classes into heavily demanding content, it's hard to know exactly where they stand. Dragoons, for instance, were somewhat suddenly shafted when the Final Coil of Bahamut came out because of the huge proportion of Magic vs Physical damage in those fights and the fact their gear literally made some stuff unsurviveable for them. The exact conditions of how a class performs in content are difficult to predict.

Regardless, I seriously don't expect normal Alexander to be tuned stupidly tight, and they may be intending to do balance changes along with the implementation of Alexander (Savage) based on Normal performance, as that's the point at which it'll really start to matter.

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Originally Posted by Lilyanna

Pretty much what Garlyle said. Ninja's were so OP when they come out and EVERYONE changed classes and spent the new poetics on them, the few DRG's that were left kept at their class and when ninja's were nerfed and dragoon's were buffed, you could instantly tell the players that only played the class because it was OP, not because they were good at it.

I have a BRD in my party and would not refuse a MCH either in the same spot. People that are kicking the new classes because they see 1 or 2 bad apples are only hurting themselves. I've seen MNK's do 200 DPS constant in Neverreap or BLM's that do lower dps then the tanks. All in all, bad players will be bad and the good ones will rise above all the challenges to break the expectations set by those that do not understand the class.

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Your comment is spot on. Reminds me of FFXI's pre-Ranger buff; everyone was all over that class and disregarded anyone as lazy and selfish for not leveling it up due to its OP-ness, but once the nerf came around, they abandoned it fast and started labeling it as worthless.

Bear in mind, though people like burning down shit faster because the dungeons and raids get so mind-numbingly boring as fuck that I think just "get it over with" mentality creeps in despite best intentions.

To be honest, I just wanted to point out your sig......ah ma gawd....

http://i.imgur.com/hSwAeaW.gif

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Originally Posted by Tyrn

Job karma for all the Blank knockbacks

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So the kicker there? I asked a MCH once if that ability was like super good dps #1 or something because he just wouldn't stop using it (I'm a NIN >.<). He sort of shrugged.

I go and finally start working on my own MCH... I look at Blank... 100 potency.

It's an auto attack. With a knockback on it.

WHY?!

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Originally Posted by Callinon

So the kicker there? I asked a MCH once if that ability was like super good dps #1 or something because he just wouldn't stop using it (I'm a NIN >.<). He sort of shrugged.

I go and finally start working on my own MCH... I look at Blank... 100 potency.

It's an auto attack. With a knockback on it.

WHY?!

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Cause MCH damage is so horrifically craptastic that that extra auto attack every minute matters.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

So the kicker there? I asked a MCH once if that ability was like super good dps #1 or something because he just wouldn't stop using it (I'm a NIN >.<). He sort of shrugged.

I go and finally start working on my own MCH... I look at Blank... 100 potency.

It's an auto attack. With a knockback on it.

WHY?!

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The same reason Some ninjas use the stun on Jugulate for 80 potency
Also still love how people think Ninja was super OP sure they were top damage but the nerfs didn't really affect them was less then 1% of a dps change for them was more to shut people up and make them happy. They were far from being OP Op would be massively ahead of people in damage which they weren't

I've said it about 3 times in this thread there is no reason to exclude them from things they're not that bad off. Yes they need buffs but people need to stop being Tools and not block them from Primal groups

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Originally Posted by Evangela

I'm not welcoming them anywhere if they don't stop using that knock back ability.

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I see the talking points from Reddit weren't e-mailed out during the July 4th weekend, but that doesn't justify using such old canards.

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Originally Posted by PrimeEvilPanda

To be honest, I just wanted to point out your sig......ah ma gawd....

http://i.imgur.com/hSwAeaW.gif

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Best. Photo. Ever! OMG XD

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

The same reason Some ninjas use the stun on Jugulate for 80 potency

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No decent NIN will do that to something that legitimately needs to be stunned (or they'll switch to silence on Jug instead). And in any event, a stun/silence is not a knockback. Jugulate doesn't launch my target to the stupid moon in the middle of my combo.

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Originally Posted by lawlHT

Fixing machinist and bard are going to take time, both to identify where the problem truly lies and to come up with a solution that balances the classes without overpowering them. Not to mention, actually implementing the changes takes a while as well. Expecting SE to just have a solution ready within two weeks is pretty shortsighted

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This!

Its more realistic to assume that both classes wont be fixed untill 3.1/3.2. I think(not sure) warrior took 6 months to be fixed and summoner did not get any love untill this expansion. So my advice is to bench the Machinist and play another class untill they get fixed. They might be fixed this month or after 6 months, best to move on for now.

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

memes

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that wasnt the biggest issue, it was just that it made drg completely useless as it provided the entire raid with bonus damage, had vastly superior damage to mnk and drg, and was arguably the easiest to maximize (outside of ping) because of a lack of positionals
and no it wasnt 1% lol

I wish the mch will stop doing that knockback skill. They do it on mobs that are with 85% HP. Why do u want your tank to break its rotation and follow that one monster. I usually don't and cuz I don't follow they change aggro cuz mch will just attack that single one monster. I am sorry but I don't feel bad if they die cuz of that. I would understand if the monster is close to die, but when is still in 3/4 HP it is just annoying. You are pushing the mob away from the tank and the other DPs that is close ranged melee ._.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

No decent NIN will do that to something that legitimately needs to be stunned (or they'll switch to silence on Jug instead). And in any event, a stun/silence is not a knockback. Jugulate doesn't launch my target to the stupid moon in the middle of my combo.

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No doubt just like any good machinist won't use the knockback in stupid situations lol

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Originally Posted by nekuxdesu

that wasnt the biggest issue, it was just that it made drg completely useless as it provided the entire raid with bonus damage, had vastly superior damage to mnk and drg, and was arguably the easiest to maximize (outside of ping) because of a lack of positionals
and no it wasnt 1% lol

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Can't find the old posts on the forums but pre echo it was a 1% dps loss with the echo it ended up being a 3% loss(that's if you could use Raiton without gcd clipping.) with echo go ask the ninja superthread if you want all the math
secondly with or without ninja the stupid drg problems would of been there and it would of always been double monk being the standard.(Had alot more in the post but lost it in an edit and just don't care to have a long winded post when people are ignorant about math)

Things will get fixed people need to be patient and stop making hundreds of these stupid threads BRD and MCH will still be wanted for savage Alexander

let me tell you something though I'm sure BRD/MCH would feel worse to be OP and then nerfed down. Just like BRD were nerfed soon after release and there was an uproar there.

I'm a bard, I feel for these guys haha. Not as bad but still

They need to see how it plays in the raid. 2 endgame fights Bismark Ex and Ravana Ex is not going to give a good sense on overall how the job preforms. Which is probably why they waiting till its out before making adjustments.

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

I just got my MCH to level 59 today and my longest runs have been with another machinist hands down.
I do everything I can and have 5 HUGE macros in my kit to make it more consistent/easier to pump out damage confidently... and even then I am outdamaged by a bloody dragoon using a level 110 spear spamming his first rotation without doing anything else. OH AND I KNOW THAT ROTIATION CAUSE I LEVELED DRAGOON TO 34 JUST FOR BLOOD FOR BLOOD! I KNOW WHAT I SAW! He did MORE damage than me.




This is how it is. I've been seeing this for over a week solid of EXCLUSIVE party finder group DPS excluding BRD/MCH.

I am so glad you got this screenie, I should take one next time I log on... it is real and it is RAMPANT.

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macroing your rotation is a straight DPS loss.

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Originally Posted by Higashikata

macroing your rotation is a straight DPS loss.

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Rotation in it's entirety? Yes, whichis what I am not doing.
Rotation in some split divisions no.

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

Rotation in it's entirety? Yes, whichis what I am not doing.
Rotation in some split divisions no.

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Macroing weaponskills, even in small chunks, loses you the DPS that you would have otherwise gained through skill queueing.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

I'm not welcoming them anywhere if they don't stop using that knock back ability.

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You'd welcome me then? I never use the knockbacks, mostly because it's annoying, but the other reason is that you need to be at point blank range. I'm shooting mobs, not hitting them with the barrel, so why would I want to be infront of the boss?

*deep breath* Find a static. It's that simple.

Is MCH 'under performing', somewhat yes. Is it a hindrance in the hands of a skill player? Not even slightly. No, it doesn't do the same damage as Melee or Casters, but that's how it's always been for BRD as well.

I've cleared Rav Ex with 2 MCH and a BRD in the group and encountered zero issues. People did the mechanics, saved their burst for "Attack Configuration" and he went down easily.

Unless things change DRASTICALLY for Alexander, and by that I mean severely tightening the dps checks then there is literally zero reason to not bring a MCH.