Mac client needs to be reborn..? :(

It really is disappointing that FFXIV doesn't work even as well as it works in Parallels.

I don't play WoW, but I love how Diablo 3 works great out of the box on both Mac and Windows!!

I wonder whether Transgaming pulled a fast one on Square Enix and then nobody at the mothership ever heard of WINE or actually tested it out to discover how embarrassingly awful the "product" actually is.

p.s. Windows trolls and idiots: nothing to see here, move along. We get that it works in Windows, and that it also works fine on a Mac when you run Windows using Boot Camp. We might even own Windows PCs as well. We still like OS X and hardware like the MacBook Pro, and we would like a real version of FFXIV that actually works well, kind of like what Blizzard delivers for their games. Unfortunately the current FFXIV client is nowhere near SE's usual standards of quality or performance.

please forgive me if this sounds condescending but the standard laptop settings is not the lowest you can go and some of the settings are just unnecessary shinies
just to be sure you should try the below settings and see if it improves anything

make sure disable rendering of objects when not visible is on
use low details on distant objects is off
make sure FXAA is off
Grass Quality is off
Map Resolution Low(this only matters if you plan to keep the map on the screen all the time)
shadows set to hide on all options
shadow resolution low
cascading off
softening weak
texture detail to bi-linear or tri-linear.
movement physics all off
turn off Naturally darken the edges of the screen and blur the graphics around an object in motion
glare off

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Originally Posted by Avenger

It really is disappointing that FFXIV doesn't work even as well as it works in Parallels.

I don't play WoW, but I love how Diablo 3 works great out of the box on both Mac and Windows!!

I wonder whether Transgaming pulled a fast one on Square Enix and then nobody at the mothership ever heard of WINE or actually tested it out to discover how embarrassingly awful the "product" actually is.

p.s. Windows trolls and idiots: nothing to see here, move along. We get that it works in Windows, and that it also works fine on a Mac when you run Windows using Boot Camp. We might even own Windows PCs as well. We still like OS X and hardware like the MacBook Pro, and we would like a real version of FFXIV that actually works well, kind of like what Blizzard delivers for their games. Unfortunately the current FFXIV client is nowhere near SE's usual standards of quality or performance.

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while I don't use the mac I am still of the firm belief they should have made a fully native client for it. transgaming uses their own custom tweaked build of WINE which while it is supposed to be better and in some cases it is, it is still WINE.
I'm with the people who call out SE to make a fully native client to replace this.

Is no one perturbed that the media hasn't said anything about this? I know... Mac gaming, but still, not one media outlet covered it. Not even Macworld. Everyone is up in arms about the Batman controvery, but FF14, not a peep.

Greetings,

I'm Hideyuki Kasuga, the lead programmer of FFXIV.

Thank you so much for all the feedback on the Mac version of FFXIV.

I’d like to take this time to address the comments about the performance of the Mac version in comparison to the Windows version by explaining the specifics and how we will address them moving forward. This is going to be another one of my long posts since it deals with technical elements, so please bear with me.

To start off, I’d like to explain the reason why the performance of the Mac version on the same machine with the same settings is lower than that of the Windows version.

There are three main factors for this difference in performance.

The first factor is the graphics API set.

For the Windows version of the game, DirectX is used as the graphics API, while OpenGL is used for the Mac version. Though Windows has OpenGL as well, when it comes to the drawing systems for games such as FFXIV, the performance of OpenGL is inferior to that of DirectX. Due to this difference in the graphics API, when using a Mac with the same standards as Windows, it will not be possible to reach the same performance as the Windows version. To put it simply, Windows is equipped with a large amount of elements for creating games while Mac does not have as many, and due to this, differences in fundamental performance arises.

The second factor is system-related.

There are aspects of the thread process scheduling for program parallelization that can be tuned by the Windows version that cannot be tuned by the Mac version. Due to this, situations arise where performance will not be elicited for portions of the game’s parallelization processing and the processing time for frames will be unstable. When comparing this aspect between Windows and Mac, no matter how you look at it there will be areas where performance differences arise.

Finally, the third factor is the system used to create the Mac version.

The Mac version of FFXIV uses the same executable files as the Windows version, and it was created using middleware that allows for functions of Windows to be converted into functions that can be executed on a Mac. This middleware is constantly running for the Mac version, which is an overhead not found in the Windows version. However, this is not a Windows emulator; it is middleware that transposes various types of functions so that they can be properly ran on a Mac. One example where this system is used is for converting the functions of DirectX into OpenGL.

When putting the above three factors together and comparing the Mac version to the Windows version, the Mac version will not reach the same level of performance as the Windows version with the same equipment and settings.

Furthermore, with the graphics and system balance found in Macs, the more characters that are drawn on the game screen then the more severe the drop in performance will be. After checking the recommended specs for the Mac version once more, you can make adjustments to the performance based on your system environment by going to “System Configuration,” clicking on “Other Settings” and then changing the “Character and Object Quantity.” If performance is severely dropping when a large amount of characters are displayed, I recommend trying to adjust this setting and improvements in performance can be expected.

Due to the aforementioned factors, the current Mac version’s performance is not on par with the Windows version. Since there are aspects that are dependent on the Mac OS system, we are unable to make improvements on the FFXIV application side for these. However, the development team will be working to improve the aspects that they can address, and we’ll be continuing to fine tune the Mac version with patches as needed.

Additionally, as one method for improving the capabilities of the Mac version, we think there are aspects that can be improved by using the DirectX 11 version for the Mac version, so we would like to look into releasing a DirectX 11 version that can run on Mac.

One thing I would like to add with is that Apple has announced their next Mac OS, El Capitan, will have features that may largely improve the performance for running various games. We’ll be talking to Apple about this and continue to make performance improvements so that the gaming experience on Macs are even better.

My post was too long, so i will have to break it in 3 parts:
It's good to have an official reply on the subject. I don't play on Mac myself, but my wife has one, and we both have been anxiously expecting the Mac version to play together. As i'm more familiar than her with optimization stuff, i'm the one that has been camping the forums (and reddit).

First of all, again, let me say that i appreciate having an official response on the subject. It is very clear that there will be differences between the Mac and Windows version.

The problem, however, is that similar hardware builds have been showing largely different performances. One just needs to take the time to search the various threads available here and in the reddit subforum. While the "good performance" reports seen to be lower in number, it could be just that those people are not bothering as much in looking for "troubleshooting" threads.

By good performance i mean the range of 30-60 fps, which leaves you with a comfortable performance to play. On the other hand, what the people with "bad performance" are experiencing (my wife included) is a -stable- 10-20 FPS performance. I mean that the performance won't chance regardless of the settings! From what we've experienced, with the graphic setting on either extremely low or extremely high, the performance will just stay around 20 fps. Apparently, it also doesn't matter if there are too many or only a couple of characters and models being displayed.

Furthermore, we've been trying to play the game on a 2013 15" MacBook Pro Retina (top of the line, if i recall correctly). There are reports of people that have been successfuly (45+ FPS) playing the game on a 2011 MBP (no settings specified). It is expected that the newer configuration would have a superior performance.

From all of this, the most simple conclusion that can be taken is that this poor performance is not related to a "Windows vs Mac" problem, the minimum requirements, and much less to an optimization of the settings. It is probably a bug?

I'm glad that SE acknowledges that there is a problem, but it is infuriating to see comments that tend to push the blame to the user (such as "not fulfilling the minimum requirements") when we can CLEARLY see that it's not the case. I guess the above post is more directed at the claims of "bad emulator" and such, but the ACTUAL problem should be discussed more openly, as has been Yoshida's policy since he came around.

I really do appreciate the reply, but as I mentioned earlier (possibly in another thread) I am actually able to achieve superior results running the DirectX 9 version under Parallels, which suffers from all the same factors PLUS the additional overhead of running a full OS PLUS the additional overhead of being a fully-virtualized environment rather than just a translation layer.

This says to me that there is something very wrong with the Mac client beyond the graphics API, system specs, or transposition of system calls.

Since you're the lead programmer, maybe you would like this crash log that seems joystick related, and is causing the game to fail immediately at launch for me (and some others http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ac版】ゲーム開始できません and http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ash-on-startup ) that I have here: http://cl.ly/bmHE

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Originally Posted by Hideyuki_Kasuga

Greetings,

I'm Hideyuki Kasuga, the lead programmer of FFXIV.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hideyuki_Kasuga

One thing I would like to add with is that Apple has announced their next Mac OS, El Capitan, will have features that may largely improve the performance for running various games. We’ll be talking to Apple about this and continue to make performance improvements so that the gaming experience on Macs are even better.

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OpenGL 4.1, is not inferior to Direct3D9. It's pretty much on par with Direct3D11. My 2013 Macbook Pro is more than capable of handling a DX9 game. While I have nothing to say about thread scheduling, the Transgaming Cider middleware you're using is definitely something you could factor out if you did a native port. I know a native port is out of the question, OS X users aren't worth the effort, this would just be a quick easy way to bring FFXIV to Mac users, but really, I would have to preferred to wait A LOT longer for something that was done right than quick and easy. I know I'm beating against a wall with this, but please, consider a native client.

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Originally Posted by Brianmj

OpenGL 4.1, is not inferior to Direct3D9. It's pretty much on par with Direct3D11. My 2013 Macbook Pro is more than capable of handling a DX9 game. While I have nothing to say about thread scheduling, the Transgaming Cider middleware you're using is definitely something you could factor out if you did a native port. I know a native port is out of the question, OS X users aren't worth the effort, this would just be a quick easy way to bring FFXIV to Mac users, but really, I would have to preferred to wait A LOT longer for something that was done right than quick and easy. I know I'm beating against a wall with this, but please, consider a native client.

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Pretty much this.

And if there can't be a client, paying for a wrapper is super ridiculous. A PC license should also be good for Mac, plain and simple.

The response is certainly appreciated, and I'm glad to see they are going to continue working on it. I've gotten it livable at 1600x900 with low settings on a 2015 MacBook w/ Radeon 370, in all areas except the most busy cities. I guess I'll live with that and hope for the best via updates.

Wow, finally an official answer, thats really apreciated, in fact, yesterday as i have reading here, there was a client update, im not so sure, but was there an improvement? i dont know if there was or i just got used to it but i think it worked better than the day before, hope they continue looking for way to improve the Mac "version".

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Originally Posted by Brianmj

... I did say OS X users weren't worth the effort. Those are my feelings. ...

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Of course we're worth the effort, otherwise Square would not have made the investment. It's a business. Blizzard proved that OS X is a profitable platform to market towards, and Square has some Metal experience given their offerings on the App Store.

Why even make a Mac version if it was going to be so inferior.....?
A bad or poorly designed product only angers the consumer, and then that consumer tells all of their friends not to buy it >.>
I think we've been down that road with 1.X have we not....

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Originally Posted by Delily

While this is nothing more than peeing in the wind, but through your purchase of Heavensward and you continued payment of subscriptions, you did pay for the OS X client, and if Square decides to make a native client, you will pay as well. Did you ever consider asking yourself why, if OSX is such a niche, Square would invest in an OSX port? They have a considerable catalog of games, and yet outside of FFXIV, only Deus Ex: Human Revelation is on the Mac. It doesn't seem to make sense, does it? Take a look at this page:

http://www.asymco.com/2015/02/09/app...h-scorecard-4/

This is one of those times where you need to realize your opinions are not based on accurate information.

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Yes and this is exactly why im saying it. I don't want to see my paid money invested in something thats no use to me. You are a Minority. MAC is not designed for Games but for other Stuff. Deal with it and don't whine and bitch so long until Developers give you your candy on the cost of others.

The Money that would flow into a native Client could be used for Server Stability and new Content. Something I and everyone who doesn't uses a subpar OS, which is designed for WORK not GAMES, would profit from oh and you would profit from it too kinda. Why should the mass suffer because of a minority?

Your link is completely outside of the Discussion. Yes Mac is growing so what? It will be mostly used for Work but not to playing Games. If you buy a whole OS designed for work to play Games then i...i just don't know to handle you without using bad Words. I don't want to be Toxic you know...


After rereading i see that im saying the same over and over...darn it.

It needs to be... a client reborn.

I'm glad to see an official response. As for me, I have gotten a refund for the Mac version and I will continue to play in Bootcamp. I will look forward to seeing what happens with the new Metal APIs, a high performance Mac client is a dream and I will happily plunk down $$ to buy it.

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Originally Posted by Brianmj

Blizzard took the time and energy to code a native Mac client. square didn't.

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WoW can run on a piece of shite computer so a Mac client is no big deal for WoW.

I got my refund this morning! See you all in boot camp! :( :)

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

WoW can run on a piece of shite computer so a Mac client is no big deal for WoW.

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WoW has a D3D renderer and an OpenGL renderer. Those things take time to write. It's a big deal for Blizzard.

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For the Windows version of the game, DirectX is used as the graphics API, while OpenGL is used for the Mac version. Though Windows has OpenGL as well, when it comes to the drawing systems for games such as FFXIV, the performance of OpenGL is inferior to that of DirectX.

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Yes! Lay the smack down on those hipster nerds who claim Mac is better. LOL Have fun with your overpriced INFERIOR computer. xD

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Originally Posted by Kerwin

Yes! Lay the smack down on those hipster nerds who claim Mac is better. LOL Have fun with your overpriced INFERIOR computer. xD

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I'm relatively certain that the only ones making the claim that X is better are the PC users. It's like an Android vs. iOS argument, the Android users seem to be the most vocal.

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Originally Posted by Nemna

I got my refund this morning! See you all in boot camp! :( :)

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What was your procedure to request refund? I've had open tickets for a few days now asking for the same. Thanks

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Originally Posted by Delily

I'm relatively certain that the only ones making the claim that X is better are the PC users. It's like an Android vs. iOS argument, the Android users seem to be the most vocal.

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Focusing on the game and not diverting to a completely different comparison, mac users have to simulate (bootcamp) windows in order to run certin programs better. That's laughable in my opinion and inferior as said above.

Thanks so much for the response and commitment to improving the Mac client!! We appreciate your efforts to make a Mac version even though it is not currently up to Square Enix's usual standards of quality and performance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hideyuki_Kasuga

The Mac version of FFXIV uses the same executable files as the Windows version, and it was created using middleware that allows for functions of Windows to be converted into functions that can be executed on a Mac. This middleware is constantly running for the Mac version, which is an overhead not found in the Windows version. However, this is not a Windows emulator; it is middleware that transposes various types of functions so that they can be properly ran on a Mac. One example where this system is used is for converting the functions of DirectX into OpenGL.

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This almost certainly the root cause of the very low performance. As many Mac users have noted with dismay, even Parallels (a full virtual machine monitor) runs the Windows FFXIV client with better performance than the Transgaming/Cider/WINE-based wrapper.

Quote:

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One thing I would like to add with is that Apple has announced their next Mac OS, El Capitan, will have features that may largely improve the performance for running various games. We’ll be talking to Apple about this and continue to make performance improvements so that the gaming experience on Macs are even better.

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It would be absolutely wonderful for the game engine to natively support El Capitan's improved graphics technology! such as Metal. Metal has already greatly improved graphics performance and quality for games that use it on iOS, and it should provide similar benefits for games that use it natively on Mac OS X.

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Originally Posted by Kerwin

Focusing on the game and not diverting to a completely different comparison, mac users have to simulate (bootcamp) windows in order to run certin programs better. That's laughable in my opinion and inferior as said above.

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We don't simulate running Window with Boot Camp, we run it directly. Boot Camp modifies the MBR so BootX (the name for the boot loader) can load Windows as opposed to OS X. Before virtualization, having multiple OSs on single computer was a pretty common thing for most developers and advanced computer users. It's neither inferior nor superior.

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Originally Posted by Delily

We don't simulate running Window with Boot Camp, we run it directly. Boot Camp modifies the MBR so BootX (the name for the boot loader) can load Windows as opposed to OS X. Before virtualization, having multiple OSs on single computer was a pretty common thing for most developers and advanced computer users. It's neither inferior nor superior.

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This is exactly right. The Mac is a PC, and it runs Windows just fine. However, it would be really nice to be able to run FFXIV on Mac OS X without having to reboot into Windows.

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Originally Posted by Wildsprite

please forgive me if this sounds condescending but the standard laptop settings is not the lowest you can go and some of the settings are just unnecessary shinies
just to be sure you should try the below settings and see if it improves anything

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It is definitely much worse if you run at anything more than the lowest resolution with everything turned off, as you suggest.
With everything turned off, you can play at a marginal 15 FPS, whereas with higher settings you may be stuck at 5-10 FPS.

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Originally Posted by Brianmj

WoW has a D3D renderer and an OpenGL renderer. Those things take time to write. It's a big deal for Blizzard.

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It has also definitely paid off with Diablo 3 and StarCraft 2 working well on the Mac. FFXIV is a great game, but Blizzard does a great job supporting the Mac, even having a single package that includes Mac and Windows versions on day 1.

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Originally Posted by Everest

What was your procedure to request refund? I've had open tickets for a few days now asking for the same. Thanks

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Mine were also open for a few days. I sent one in through the FFXIV general support system and another through the Square-Enix store. I'm not sure which one actually accomplished the desired outcome.

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Originally Posted by Hideyuki_Kasuga

There are aspects of the thread process scheduling for program parallelization that can be tuned by the Windows version that cannot be tuned by the Mac version. Due to this, situations arise where performance will not be elicited for portions of the game’s parallelization processing and the processing time for frames will be unstable.

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Having some experience with parallel programming on the Mac as well as other platforms, I'm a bit puzzled by this, since the Mac has nice instruction and data parallel programming support via Grand Central Dispatch and OpenCL. Moreover, thread priority can certainly be adjusted, and real-time scheduling is also supported.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Avenger

Having some experience with parallel programming on the Mac as well as other platforms, I'm a bit puzzled by this, since the Mac has nice parallel programming support via Grand Central Dispatch and OpenCL. Moreover, thread priority can certainly be adjusted, and real-time scheduling is also supported.

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The question is how well Cider translates those calls.

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Originally Posted by Delily

The question is how well Cider translates those calls.

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Yep, Cider is the problem, no doubt. :(

All Blizzard games run better on Windows than they do on the Mac; but the Mac versions are native apps and, therefore, don't run like shit.

Guildwars 2 runs better on Windows than it does on the Mac. The Mac client is labeled as a Beta, it's free for all account owners, it also uses a Cider wrapper and it still doesn't run like shit.

The Elder Scrolls Online runs better on Windows than it does on the Mac. In fact, the Windows version features facial animations that aren't available on the Mac (yet). The Mac client came packaged with the Windows copy. It also uses a Cider wrapper and it still doesn't run like shit.

Final Fantasy 14 runs better on Windows than it does on the Mac. Final Fantasy 14 runs better on Windows (even when that Windows is in a virtual environment) on the Mac than the Mac client itself. The Mac client also uses a Cider wrapper but it runs like shit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Delily

We don't simulate running Window with Boot Camp, we run it directly. Boot Camp modifies the MBR so BootX (the name for the boot loader) can load Windows as opposed to OS X. Before virtualization, having multiple OSs on single computer was a pretty common thing for most developers and advanced computer users. It's neither inferior nor superior.

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Tell me what programs windows can't run that macs can at the same efficiency then.

I just started the Mac FFXIV client up, and in the game start screen when I scrolled between "Configuration" and "Exit" I noticed large red text that would momentarily flash in the middle of the screen. The text read:

ß Version ß Version ß Version


Perhaps this explains why it's not quite ready to be played. :p

I think it would make sense to declare the current Mac client an open Beta version and to stop selling it until performance issues and bugs have been addressed.

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Originally Posted by Kerwin

Tell me what programs windows can't run that macs can at the same efficiency then.

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I'm assuming you're not a developer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Avenger

I just started the Mac FFXIV client up, and in the game start screen when I scrolled between "Configuration" and "Exit" I noticed large red text that would momentarily flash in the middle of the screen. The text read:

ß Version ß Version ß Version


Perhaps this explains why it's not quite ready to be played. :p

I think it would make sense to declare the current Mac client an open Beta version and to stop selling it until performance issues and bugs have been addressed.

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This is really the most groan-worthy part. It was clearly not ready to go, much less be paid for.

I think the best move is to offer it for free alongside a PC License as a beta. I hardly think anyone would object to that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brianmj

OpenGL 4.1, is not inferior to Direct3D9. It's pretty much on par with Direct3D11. My 2013 Macbook Pro is more than capable of handling a DX9 game. While I have nothing to say about thread scheduling, the Transgaming Cider middleware you're using is definitely something you could factor out if you did a native port. I know a native port is out of the question, OS X users aren't worth the effort, this would just be a quick easy way to bring FFXIV to Mac users, but really, I would have to preferred to wait A LOT longer for something that was done right than quick and easy. I know I'm beating against a wall with this, but please, consider a native client.

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This is why I just use wine and get better performance....