WHM Vs AST Healing Comparison at 50

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Originally Posted by Staris

This is a argument that misses any real application.
If the WHM topped off the raid from nearly no life in 1 medica 2 and 2 medica 1s, the Astro would do it in the same amount of casts and cost them less mana and less overhealing, the potency's are nearly identical in application.

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But is that going to happen ?

WHM cap pop Seal and heal for a crap ton and do it in 1-2 heals, while AST could take 3-4 trying to raid heal... In the mean time the tank is getting spiked on for damage.

I guess an AST could just use a card.. and get a random buff and solve it all at just the right time.

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Originally Posted by Staris

This is a argument that misses any real application.
If the WHM topped off the raid from nearly no life in 1 medica 2 and 2 medica 1s, the Astro would do it in the same amount of casts and cost them less mana and less overhealing, the potency's are nearly identical in application.

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The difference is the speed in which they can do it. A Divine Sealed Medica I/II beats anything an AST can pump out in the same amount of time. Think about T13's Megaflare + Towers in phase 2. A WHM can pull off healing that easily, but what can AST offer in return?

I feel like AST's buffs just need to be stronger overall.

If it's going to come down to RNG, it needs to be strong enough to justify all of the times you DIDN'T get the buff you needed.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

I feel like AST's buffs just need to be stronger overall.

If it's going to come down to RNG, it needs to be strong enough to justify all of the times you DIDN'T get the buff you needed.

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I agree with this. They need to be stronger and last longer for some of them

Bole.. yea it can last 15 seconds thats fine..
-20% TP use or -20% mana Use.. that needs to last 30 seconds default to get any real use.

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Originally Posted by Kiaris

I agree with this. They need to be stronger and last longer for some of them

Bole.. yea it can last 15 seconds thats fine..
-20% TP use or -20% mana Use.. that needs to last 30 seconds default to get any real use.

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Or make it mana or TP REGEN and it'd be SERIOUSLY useful...

tbh they should make only 3 cards.

-20% tp and mp consumption into one.

-10% damage taken +10% damage done into one.

-20% cd and +10% haste into one.

This will reduce the randomness, while buffing the cards and make them useful. Especially the TP/MP one. This way you can buff your entire party without most of the buff being useless.

After reading this thread, I'm pretty convinced almost none of you have actually played AST, or if you have, are awful at the class.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

After reading this thread, I'm pretty convinced almost none of you have actually played AST, or if you have, are awful at the class.

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Could you elaborate on why that is?

The problem is that the class' key feature (the card system) lacks the oomph necessary to justify bringing it over a SCH/WHM combo. I've played both SCH and AST to 52 with the same gear and done dungeons with both. The AST has less healing/mitigation overall and that WOULD be okay if the card system really made a huge difference, but I just don't feel like it did.

Never at any point did the buffs feel like they were making any real impact on the fights (even trash pulls) and as such, I just don't see what niche AST is going to fill. If bosses were dying faster or the tank was taking that much less damage, etc., sure, but it ultimately felt like the cards weren't making that much of a difference.

Also, a number of the cards are either questionable or downright worthless.

The Spear is absolutely pointless (no pun intended), and the Ewer and Spire seek to rectify a problem that shouldn't exist to start with (ie the target running out of MP/TP). Also, I can't see how much TP anyone in my party has, and AoEing it ensures that it'll likely be 50% useless as most classes either use MP or TP (with a select few using both).

But really, all of the buffs are kinda limp noodles, and seeing as how we're contending with RNG to determine which one we get, that isn't going to work in the long term.

Again, if you have any insight as to how to play the class differently (especially if you have some level 60 experience with it), I'm sure people will listen.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

After reading this thread, I'm pretty convinced almost none of you have actually played AST, or if you have, are awful at the class.

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I can't say I have leveled AST myself. But as going with a friend and leveling with him with me being the DRK...Even with some randoms as well, I see ASTs struggling to keep people up when crap hits the fan. Big pulls? It's a huge challenge. Constant AoEs(Hi Vault)? It's a challenge. We even went back to T13 to try and get weapons and it was apparent that AST could not do ANYTHING if their counterpart is gone. It's simply too much for them. Megaflares, Spike damage on MT, etc.

The point everyone is making that while the BASE numbers are similar, what they can do EFFECTIVELY in the long run is not anywhere as good as WHM and SCH.

This is me just speculating while leveling....

....but it seems like AST will have mana problems in end-game content. As a WHM I found myself running out of mana somewhat often if my DPS didn't dodge AoEs or my tank missed some CDs, even with SoS. WHM got a second mana-regenning option: Assize, 10% max mana restored every 60s, in addition to Divine Seal which massively upgrades healing:mana ratio so you won't run out of mana as quickly with good usage, on top of Freecure Procs.


AST has less potency for slightly less mana but it should be around the same mana cost not counting the Freecure Procs or Divine Seal in terms of mana spent for healing done. However, their only secondary mana management option is Ewer, which is up to RNG and can only be procced for a maximum of 45 seconds every minute if RNG is in your favor and you Royal Road it.

Both WHM and SCH have better mana management options than AST does and AST doesn't do either of their jobs as well as them :X The only edge AST has is its support options but if one of your healers is OOM, it's not going to be a great time for the party :(

Thought I suppose we'll have to see how well BRD/MCH mana regen works or lines up with other classes running out of resources.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

Also, a number of the cards are either questionable or downright worthless.

The Spear is absolutely pointless (no pun intended), and the Ewer and Spire seek to rectify a problem that shouldn't exist to start with (ie the target running out of MP/TP).

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The Spear, while weaker than the other cards, isn't worthless. You just need to be selfish with it. Personally I like to hold it when I get it and use it directly before Luminiferous Aether. Combine this with the occasional Ewer and mana issues aren't much of a problem. I find that in 8 mans, using the Spear like that on myself and using Ewer on the other healer tends to be a good balance at keeping everyone happy. But if you, as an AST, are still having mana issues, you can always just use Ewer on yourself as well.

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Also, I can't see how much TP anyone in my party has, and AoEing it ensures that it'll likely be 50% useless as most classes either use MP or TP (with a select few using both).

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Both Ewer and Spire are best used on single targets, not AE. Save the AE buffs for Arrow/Balance since that's really where the AE buffs are going to pull ahead. As far as seeing their TP pool goes, since this is a reduction not a refresh, casting on them"early" isn't as much of a problem. I'd say anyone with 800~ TP and actively attacking a target is going to get the full benefit of it. Just prioritize the classes who burn through TP, like MNKs.

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But really, all of the buffs are kinda limp noodles, and seeing as how we're contending with RNG to determine which one we get, that isn't going to work in the long term.

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And this right here is one of the bigger problem with the people in this thread. The card system is great when used properly, but it's not the crux of the class. It's more like the icing on the cake.

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I can't say I have leveled AST myself. But as going with a friend and leveling with him with me being the DRK...Even with some randoms as well, I see ASTs struggling to keep people up when crap hits the fan. Big pulls? It's a huge challenge. Constant AoEs(Hi Vault)? It's a challenge. We even went back to T13 to try and get weapons and it was apparent that AST could not do ANYTHING if their counterpart is gone. It's simply too much for them. Megaflares, Spike damage on MT, etc.

The point everyone is making that while the BASE numbers are similar, what they can do EFFECTIVELY in the long run is not anywhere as good as WHM and SCH.

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I don't know what to tell you, cause I can't see what they are doing wrong. All I can say is I don't seem to be having these same issues.

You have to start thinking differently with AST, it's not a whm or a sch and you have to think that way. If you treat AST like a whm or SCH you are going to have problems no matter what because it isn't one or the other.

You have to see your strenghts and weaknesses and play them as such. A lot of AST don't know how to play the class effectively and when they figure it out, I think the class will really come into its own.

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Originally Posted by Dayala

You have to start thinking differently with AST, it's not a whm or a sch and you have to think that way. If you treat AST like a whm or SCH you are going to have problems no matter what because it isn't one or the other.

You have to see your strenghts and weaknesses and play them as such. A lot of AST don't know how to play the class effectively and when they figure it out, I think the class will really come into its own.

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Well said, I'm amazed at all the ignorant astro bashing going on here.

One thing the poster is missing, and is very important:

AST version of MedicaII radius: 15y
WHM version of MedicaII radius: 20y

This makes it really painful for AST to cover the whole party with MedicaII.

And I feel the AOE radius of Royal Road effect is something even smaller (10y is my guess).

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

And this right here is one of the bigger problem with the people in this thread. The card system is great when used properly, but it's not the crux of the class. It's more like the icing on the cake.

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It's the defining feature of the class, though.

Objectively speaking, the AST numbers are significantly weaker than those of WHM and SCH, it has fewer "OH SHI-" buttons and cannot reliably AoE heal as well, which is absolutely vital for most raid encounters.

If I were leading a raid group, I would insist upon not bringing an AST in the class' current incarnation because it simply lacks the tools of the other healing classes and brings an unreliable buff system to compensate, a buff system that's barely worth it even when they draw all the "right" cards at the right time.

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Originally Posted by RoseM

One thing the poster is missing, and is very important:

AST version of MedicaII radius: 15y
WHM version of MedicaII radius: 20y

This makes it really painful for AST to cover the whole party with MedicaII.

And I feel the AOE radius of Royal Road effect is something even smaller (10y is my guess).

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Yea I noticed the range difference on the AST for not having the 20y heal.. I kept spamming it ina dungeon and was wondering why I was short.. WHM always hit people there.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

I don't know what to tell you, cause I can't see what they are doing wrong. All I can say is I don't seem to be having these same issues.

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I trust my friend enough to know what he's talking about. He is a good healer. Don't misinterpret though. AST can do content. Not saying it's impossible, but their nature is completely support(End Game wise). If the main healing goes down, -Supportive Healing- is going to have a tough time stabilizing.

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Originally Posted by Krixus

Well said, I'm amazed at all the ignorant astro bashing going on here.

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Probably not directed to a lot of people, but again, I do not have Astrologian leveled. It is merely tank observations. One can "think" like an Astrologian, but what does this even mean exactly? A SCH, WHM and AST have the same role in the group. It's to cure people. The differences that set them apart is their abilities and curing potential.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

And this right here is one of the bigger problem with the people in this thread. The card system is great when used properly, but it's not the crux of the class. It's more like the icing on the cake.

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what is the crux of the class then? sub-par heals?

i dont bash AST, i want it buffed so we all can enjoy playing it in raids.

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Originally Posted by Nague

i dont bash AST, i want it buffed so we all can enjoy playing it in raids.

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people don't seem to understand that you can be critical of something while still liking it

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Originally Posted by jars

people don't seem to understand that you can be critical of something while still liking it

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And I would consider this highly constructive criticism.

No one here is saying "Whoever designed AST DESERVES TO DIEEEE!!!" or anything even remotely close.

We're just suggesting that the class needs a bit of a boost here and there (specifically, more rewarding cards, I'd say).

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

And I would consider this highly constructive criticism.

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Constructive criticism? What's that?! You have to like and love the class through all its flaws! It's the most perfect thing that has graced the Earth!

but seriously, all the new jobs need work. Period. Truth be told, I just feel like we're Beta testers for the new jobs.

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Originally Posted by Lorielle

but seriously, all the new jobs need work. Period. Truth be told, I just feel like we're Beta testers for the new jobs.

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I think that's kinda the norm, and I also think that SE probably shipped these new jobs a bit on the nerfed side so they don't get the usual flood of complaints about how OP they are.

I expect buffs for all three in short order, and no, I don't blame SE for doing it this way one bit. Better these classes are weaker and don't get "over rolled" than the opposite being true.

That said, still leveling my AST because I enjoy the playstyle, I just can't see bringing it to raids over my SCH.

Also, here's my idea for buffing the card system: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ST-card-system

If our heals are going to be that much worse than a WHM/SCH, the buff system should bring a lot more to the table to compensate. And I'd MUCH rather they buff the buffs than bring AST numbers up to being on par with WHM/SCH as it would kill the uniqueness of the class, IMO.

I know the original topic was about AST vs WHM/SCH healing numbers, so I figured I'd share mine as SCH with average ilvl of 165~

Physick: 2400-2500 non-crit - 3600-4000 crit
Adloquium: 1800-1900 + 1800-1900 non-crit - 2000-2700 + 2000-2700x2 crit
Succor: 900-1000 + 900-1000 non-crit - 1300-1400 + 1300-1400x2 crit
Lustrate: 3600-3700 non-crit - 5200-5400 crit
Indomitability: 2400-2600 non-crit - 3200-3400 crit
Embrace: 1200-1300 non-crit - 1800-2000 crit
Whispering Dawn: 660-700/tick

Keep in mine, SCH can also use Emergency Tactics for Adlouium or Succor, essentially turning them into a Cure II or Medica; if they crit, the healing is insane since it also doubles the heal on the second effect. I've crit tanks for upwards of 10k with Adolquium+Emergency Tactics, and I've seen Succor crit for around 3000~ total. We can also now spread Adloquium to the group if needed, in the same radius that an AST can spread card buffs in an AoE (10y).