The Rejoining (Spoilers for EVERYTHING up to 2.55, welcome to Lore)

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Originally Posted by Alberel

I think it's more a case of some of the 'bad' stuff the Ascians have been doing might not seem so bad if we understood why they were doing it. At least that's how I interpreted Elidibus on that one. This was what original sparked the theories about Hydaelyn actually deceiving us. Either way I think it's safe to say there's a lot we don't yet know about the nature of the universe and it's entirely possible, given a big-picture view via the Echo, that we might see the truth of Elidibus' words.

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Concerning Elidibus, I interpret his words and actions as being "true neutral" which is Not unlike Zodiark's clan primer description in FF12 and Revenant Wings: that of an unbiased judge who measures your worth. Zodiark is also opposite of Ultima in Ivalice lore, who like her angelic partner Zalera, defied the gods while Zodiark was just sealed away out of caution for being too strong. I can't say the same for fellow "abnormal" Ascian lahabrea, because Mateus was a pretty nasty dude.

And since the Ascians all appear to have different goals, I wonder about two things: which ones are responsible for what Umbral Era, and if SE will take the route that has them emulating their Espers' histories in FF14. For example, Samyaza/Shemhazai is the Whisperer, known for being the one that influenced Ultima and the others to rebel.

Me personally, I didn't view his final words in the English text to be threatening. Even though a lot of what he says seems mocking in tone that statement seemed like he was almost legitimately worried about us. Like he really didn't like the idea of us getting involved.

I'm not sure if we could really call Middy and Ally but he's at least not an enemy.

Unlike a certain blue coat wearing Ala Mhigan that I will certainly enjoy killing.

I think Midgarsormr is just a very old and very cynical dragon who is frankly sceptical at us being 'the chosen one'. We are basically stepping into an ancient and immense war between the 'light' and 'darkness' that has been raging for thousands of years and is on the level of gods. No matter our mortal accomplishments we seem pretty tame to be the lynch pin to put everyone's hopes on.

The dual storylines of the mundane vs the almost divine conflicts we are involved in as characters is one of the most interesting aspects of FF14's stories. Epic wars like the dragonsong war, for all their history and tragedy, are simply another battle in our war. An important battle almost certainly but there is a difference in scale.

I think there will be an undercurrent in Heavensward that touches exactly why we have been chosen and I think that will be highly satisfying.

Firstly, I think it will so that we are chosen because we are special, not special because we are chosen. It's notable that we are often underestimated because of that.

Secondly, and this is pure speculation, I think that why we are chosen will be linked not only to what we can do (which is a lot) but the effect we have on those we visit. Just consider everything we do and have done. We are like a rallying force, bringing Eorzea together and inspiring them. We even have brought the beast tribes closer to the player races and each other. Lahabrea has an interesting line at the end of the Preatorium in the final cutscene. He says "The Light, it binds them" when all the light versions of the Scions and GC company leaders appear.

Most of what I've seen seems to indicate that Hydaelyn is losing and growing weaker. She has expended a lot of strength on us. She is making a hell of a gamble. We must hold some importance for her to invest so much in us at such a serious time in her war.

There is one point I haven't really seen touched on here in this thread: the great river of aether, as it's referred to in the game. Why do I bring this up? Because it seems to be directly involved with the events of the Calamity, which was the Seventh Rejoining, to hear the Ascians call it.

How do I know this? The cutscenes in the Binding Coil of Bahamut. Specifically, Alisaie mentions that the "great river of aether" had its directional flow changed during the Calamity. The timing of that is rather suspect, for one, as later in the 2.5 main scenario, while discussing where to find enough aether to destroy an Ascian soul, the great river comes up again as being too dangerous to meddle with.

And yet, someone(s) did, during the Calamity. I propose that what the Ascians are doing is gradually shifting the course of this river over a long period of time. Like any large river, it'd be extremely difficult to divert the main body without considerable manpower and time. Which leads me to Primal summoning. How does this matter? They consume aether to manifest and stay corporeal. We don't know if this aether is being drawn from the river, or if the land and the great river of aether are one and the same, but let's assume for the moment that to speak of one is to speak of the other. The more Primals out and about having an aether snack, the more flow is taken from this large body of aether, and therefore the easier it would be to ... adjust its course.

In other words, I think that the Ardor is the process by which the Ascians divert the great river of aether away from Hydaelyn, towards Zodiark. They've flat out said that "even as it enervates, the Ardor empowers our master." Context would suggest that the enervation is directed at Hydaelyn (she is becoming increasingly weaker, a fact constantly thrown at us by the Ascians, particularly Nabriales). Additionally, Nabriales heavily implies that he would have used a massive quantity of aether (via Tupsimati's tablet and "the horn" from 1.0) in order to cause "the next Rejoining", in his words. The implication is that he would likely have tapped directly into the great river to fuel/cause the Ardor (per Lahabrea and Elidibus talking at the end of 2.55); Nabriales, however, was going to cause a Rejoining with both objects, so it's clear that the Ardor and the Rejoining are directly related to each other.

I'm not entirely certain how the Ardor and the Rejoining (referred to as dimensional compression by Moenbryda) are related, but to me it seems pretty clear that the former begets the latter. The Ardor is "invoked", which leads to a Rejoining. We don't know exactly what effects this is having, aside from it causing Hydaelyn to willingly expend her strength to protect humankind from it, and it's costing her two-fold: her own strength, and an increasing lack of rejuvenation from the great river's course shifting away from her.

That's my rambling, anyway.

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Originally Posted by dvoraen

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At first when I read this I was like "No, but the Calamity is what caused the redirection in the River," but then I started to think that the Calamities (all seven of them) might actually be the sources of redirection, like building levees to direct a river's flow. Points in the fabric of history changing the landscape and the spirits of the people of the world, ultimately redirecting the flow of the River of Aether. Like I said, it didn't seem like it was right until I started to think about it.

Overall, a pretty solid idea, methinks.

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Originally Posted by dvoraen

I'm not entirely certain how the Ardor and the Rejoining

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Is there anything that concretely separates them, so far? I mean, what is a Calamity to those negatively affected could be an Ardor to those who benefit, and simply the Rejoining to anyone referring to it neutrally at the time. At the very least, I think Calamity and Ardor are synonymous and that these and the Rejoining are part of the same overall event (of which there have now been seven).

This theory is going to leave Final Fantasy behind (well, except for much-beloved FFIX), and move off into a Tales of Symphonia-ward direction, but...

Aether levels throughout Eorzea are dropping, and each time a Primal is summoned and then slain, Zodiark grows in strength...

Any and all "disturbances" in the flow of aether, particularly when we dissipate some massive entity like a Primal, could be causing that aether to flow from Hydaelyn to Zodiark. The Rejoining has nothing to do with the lands themselves, and everything to do with the balance of aether between the "light" and the "dark." In a way it's like the cycle of souls between Gaia and Terra in FFIX, with Eorzea itself serving as the Iifa Tree. Silvertear Falls is the link controlling the flow between the two worlds.

What they get out of it? No idea, unless their world was on the decline until they started meddling in our world. They may even be trying to correct the balance enough that another way can be found to moderate the flow.

OK, now that the debate over Au Ra evolutionary patterns has largely been settled (or at least conceded), I can get into the important shit.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

This theory is going to leave Final Fantasy behind (well, except for much-beloved FFIX), and move off into a Tales of Symphonia-ward direction, but...

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Incidentally, I find this to be a likely possibility as well. I'm basing my ideas on the Dark Souls games, but it follows a similar axiom; two forces in constant struggle, Flame / light and Dark. When the Flame splutters and fades, Dark rises, but inevitably someone reignites the Flame and pushes the Dark back.

I imagine that's somewhat similar to the Astral / Umbral ages, with Hydaelyn growing in power and influence during Astral Ages and Zodiark during Umbral. Then we've got the Primals, who screw up the aether flow just by being summoned and continuing to exist; I think they're impure manifestations of Zodiark, for the most part, since all the Primals we regularly fight (the six elemental ones and Moggle Mog) were summoned through rituals taught by the Ascians, and aside from Shiva (and to a lesser extent Ramuh) have no qualms about continuing to exist, eating up all the aether they can, and killing as many of the spoken races as they can. Lahabrea mentions that he wants to cause a "chaotic confluence of aether" with the Primals to bring about Zodiark's rebirth; the MO of most Primals certainly works into this plan.

Speaking of Ramuh, his final words are something like "Before man, there was no difference between Light and Dark." This, combined with Lahabrea's description of Hydaelyn as a "parasite," led me to the hypothesis that Hydaelyn is the original Primal, created so long ago by Man that nobody remembers how or why. I think Zodiark's previous "version" of the world just sucked so bad for Men they created Hydaelyn, who usurped Zodiark's position as "Fathercrystal," took up the mantle of Mothercrystal, and led to Man flourishing. The Primals created by the beastman tribes are indirect attempts to contest Hydaelyn, but because they're fractured in their faith unlike Man, cannot topple her. This also fits the Ascians' MO, since while none of the Primals can individually best Hydaelyn, their repeated summonings severely weaken her and reduce her influence though a "chaotic confluence of aether." As Hydaelyn weakens and fails, Zodiark grows in strength until he's "reborn" and takes his position as "Fathercrystal" back.

What happens then is anyone's guess. But I like this world, even if it's sometimes cruel, and that's reason enough to fight for it.

Either way, point is the separation of Light and Dark is tied to Man's existence, so without a universal paradigm shift or finding a way to break the cycle, we'll always be in conflict with the Ascians and Zodiark.

The rest I can't really say. "Ardor," "Rejoining," and "Calamity" all seem to have similar meanings, so it's probably just a matter of connotation.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

This theory is going to leave Final Fantasy behind (well, except for much-beloved FFIX), and move off into a Tales of Symphonia-ward direction, but...

Aether levels throughout Eorzea are dropping, and each time a Primal is summoned and then slain, Zodiark grows in strength...

Any and all "disturbances" in the flow of aether, particularly when we dissipate some massive entity like a Primal, could be causing that aether to flow from Hydaelyn to Zodiark. The Rejoining has nothing to do with the lands themselves, and everything to do with the balance of aether between the "light" and the "dark." In a way it's like the cycle of souls between Gaia and Terra in FFIX, with Eorzea itself serving as the Iifa Tree. Silvertear Falls is the link controlling the flow between the two worlds.

What they get out of it? No idea, unless their world was on the decline until they started meddling in our world. They may even be trying to correct the balance enough that another way can be found to moderate the flow.

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This reminds me actually... There was a scientist we escort around to read ambient aether levels in 2.5. On the surface it seems like it's just a plot device to have us find Wilred's body at Urth's Fount but the actual discovery of the body completely overshadowed the scientist's discovery. Didn't he start panicking when he realised just how low the aether levels were? The subsequent events kind of distracted everyone from that little scene and few people seem to have picked up on it.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

OK, now that the debate over Au Ra evolutionary patterns has largely been settled (or at least conceded), I can get into the important shit.

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Some person you've never met face-to-face was wrong. Setting them straight is important, dammit! XD

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Originally Posted by Alberel

This reminds me actually... There was a scientist we escort around to read ambient aether levels in 2.5. On the surface it seems like it's just a plot device to have us find Wilred's body at Urth's Fount but the actual discovery of the body completely overshadowed the scientist's discovery. Didn't he start panicking when he realised just how low the aether levels were? The subsequent events kind of distracted everyone from that little scene and few people seem to have picked up on it.

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I think there are a lot of plotlines that certainly pretend like we've totally wrapped them up neatly with a bow and have no need to address them again, but... Yeah, there's definitely more going on there. How it all fits into the puzzle is the million dollar question.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Incidentally, I find this to be a likely possibility as well. I'm basing my ideas on the Dark Souls games, but it follows a similar axiom; two forces in constant struggle, Flame / light and Dark. When the Flame splutters and fades, Dark rises, but inevitably someone reignites the Flame and pushes the Dark back.

Either way, point is the separation of Light and Dark is tied to Man's existence, so without a universal paradigm shift or finding a way to break the cycle, we'll always be in conflict with the Ascians and Zodiark.

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See, what was a little different with Symphonia was the point that because the cycle the world is in was, in fact, created by man to begin with, it was not wrong for man to rewrite the universe again to change it. Granted, Symphonia (being, in part, a critique of Final Fantasy X) was about an 11 on the idealistic scale, and ended by deciding a (pretty far-off) goal to be worked for but not outlining how to get there. Then the sequel went pretty dark places by asking "what did you think was going to happen when you rejoined the worlds, really? Instant world peace?"

We seem to be moving season-by-season through various plotlines, so even if we do complete/thwart the Rejoining at some point, what comes after could still have its own share of problems to deal with

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Some person you've never met face-to-face was wrong. Setting them straight is important, dammit! XD

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Of course it was! Still is! Eugenics and Nazis were brought up... man it was a mess.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

See, what was a little different with Symphonia was the point that because the cycle the world is in was, in fact, created by man to begin with, it was not wrong for man to rewrite the universe again to change it. Granted, Symphonia (being, in part, a critique of Final Fantasy X) was about an 11 on the idealistic scale, and ended by deciding a (pretty far-off) goal to be worked for but not outlining how to get there. Then the sequel went pretty dark places by asking "what did you think was going to happen when you rejoined the worlds, really? Instant world peace?"

We seem to be moving season-by-season through various plotlines, so even if we do complete/thwart the Rejoining at some point, what comes after could still have its own share of problems to deal with

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I've played both Symphonia games as well, and it's again not dissimilar. The difference is in the Dark Souls-verse the very existence of Light and Dark are an inherent part of Man's very existence, not a result of Man's actions. The cycle of Light and Dark is literally unbreakable, as the soul and the cycle are one and the same.

I think it's similar in XIV. Hydaelyn could very well be the collective consciousness of the Spoken races, the source of Spoken souls and what they return to upon death.

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Originally Posted by Hydaelyn

I am Hydaelyn, all made one.

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But some fragment of Dark, some piece of Zodiark, separates us from her and grants us independent existence.

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Originally Posted by Lahabrea

The Light! It binds them! They are too many!

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Light binds; Dark separates. Without both we cannot exist. It doesn't have the idealistic tone the story seems to have (except the 2.5.X story content), though...

That would change my hypothesis from Man being responsible for Hydaelyn's creation to vice versa, but I didn't discount that possibility as well. We are "Children of the Land," after all.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

That would change my hypothesis from Man being responsible for Hydaelyn's creation to vice versa, but I didn't discount that possibility as well. We are "Children of the Land," after all.

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Granted I'm taking a huge chunk of this next theory from my own (lamentably unpublished) work, but a part of me wonders if it was the Twelve who created Hydaelyn, and thus man, to be some sort of "improvement" over the existence they had known. They had acquired the power to alter reality (from Zodiark?), and so created some new world based on what they thought would be "better" than the world they lived in. Except something went wrong, somewhere, and the Ascians have spent thousands of years trying to set "right" this change that was made for the sake of their world, sewing chaos and destruction in a world that was meant to be paradise.

Which would leave us as little more than the gods' playthings. A "mistake" in the cosmic sense that should never have been made, but now that we do we have no less a right to exist than the original "something" we were taken from. This... doesn't hold up with the themes on the table, yet, because self-determination must yield before the wills of unseen higher powers for the greater good, but I suspect more time with Uncle Middy might start shifting our ideology a bit.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Granted I'm taking a huge chunk of this next theory from my own (lamentably unpublished) work, but a part of me wonders if it was the Twelve who created Hydaelyn, and thus man, to be some sort of "improvement" over the existence they had known. They had acquired the power to alter reality (from Zodiark?), and so created some new world based on what they thought would be "better" than the world they lived in. Except something went wrong, somewhere, and the Ascians have spent thousands of years trying to set "right" this change that was made for the sake of their world, sewing chaos and destruction in a world that was meant to be paradise.

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But that's how the myth of Eorzea starts, isn't it? While we can assume that people evolved and the planet was created naturally, we are still in a fantasy world where the myth and predominant religion state that we are products of the gods' creation.

I personally think we're headed for an FF5 reconnect two worlds and merge their world maps... which gives Yoshi another way to hit the big old reset button on existing zones.

Other thoughts that I haven't really developed or thought through to their logical endpoints;

Ascians can move around a lot like we do - teleportation. We move from somewhere to an "anchor of light" (my term) and maybe the Ascians are doing the same in their dark world between "dark aetheryte crystals", but because they're this weird dimension-crossing class, they're appearing in both worlds. What might Eorzea look like if the Rejoining goes ahead?

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Granted I'm taking a huge chunk of this next theory from my own (lamentably unpublished) work, but a part of me wonders if it was the Twelve who created Hydaelyn, and thus man, to be some sort of "improvement" over the existence they had known. They had acquired the power to alter reality (from Zodiark?), and so created some new world based on what they thought would be "better" than the world they lived in. Except something went wrong, somewhere, and the Ascians have spent thousands of years trying to set "right" this change that was made for the sake of their world, sewing chaos and destruction in a world that was meant to be paradise.

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Distinct possibility... we don't know Hydaelyn's origins, but according to myth the Gods lived alongside the Spoken races before they began to war among themselves. The Gods then left, inducing the first Calamity and starting the Astral / Umbral Era cycle.

However, if the Twelve were responsible for creating Hydaelyn, and something went wrong with her creation... might the Ascians themselves be the Twelve? I believe there was some old legend about a Roegadyn Thaumaturge, who was an Archon (of Rahlgr), eventually turning his back on the world and sort of becoming an Ascian... might that not be true of the entire pantheon?

The Ascians being the figures the Twelve are based on would explain a few things, like their godlike power, how there's twelve of them (plus Elidibus), how normal people can't even perceive them, etc.

I don't know about any parallel or alternate worlds, but...

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Which would leave us as little more than the gods' playthings. A "mistake" in the cosmic sense that should never have been made, but now that we do we have no less a right to exist than the original "something" we were taken from. This... doesn't hold up with the themes on the table, yet, because self-determination must yield before the wills of unseen higher powers for the greater good, but I suspect more time with Uncle Middy might start shifting our ideology a bit.

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I dunno about whether or not our existence is a mistake. On the contrary, far as I can figure I believe Hydaelyn deliberately created us to be containers for Zodiark's essence. Consider a choice of the Ascians' words in regards to Calamities: "Rejoining." They're putting something back together. That something could be Zodiark. By slaughtering people en masse, they're liberating more and more of Zodiark's essence from Spoken souls. Dark is an inherent component of our existence, our very being, but by dying our souls return to Hydaelyn (to continue the cycle of souls) but the Dark is returned to Zodiark. Hydaelyn is strongest when there are many people to bind together, while Zodiark's power is derived from the opposite. By killing off enough of the world's population though the Primals, aether starvation, puppeteered Calamities, and direct actions, Zodiark will regain his full power and the scales of the world will tip from Light to Dark.

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Originally Posted by Lahabrea

By my will, [Ishgard] shall reap salvation unlike any the world has known.

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Insanity aside, why would they term it salvation if all they're doing is killing people?

We are just playthings of the gods, thus far. Part of Heavensward (or at least Middy's test) is to see if we're truly noble or we're just doing what we are because we're on Hydaelyn's leash, after all.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

A part of me wonders if it was the Twelve who created Hydaelyn, and thus man, to be some sort of "improvement" over the existence they had known. They had acquired the power to alter reality (from Zodiark?), and so created some new world based on what they thought would be "better" than the world they lived in. Except something went wrong, somewhere, and the Ascians have spent thousands of years trying to set "right" this change that was made for the sake of their world, sewing chaos and destruction in a world that was meant to be paradise.

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This theory reminds me of the setting of Garth Nix's Abhorsen novels. In them, it's explained that reality used to be chaotic magical forces existing in anarchy, until they were bound by laws that created the 'orderly' world. There are still magical beings that resent / fight against that 'order' as being oppressive to their natural 'free' state. Perhaps something similar could've happened with Hydaelyn.

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Originally Posted by Grayve

Well, this is all fasinating, but I was wondering about the Echo, which may not be related. What is its source? It seems clear that the Ascians have it as well, as does Iceheart and the Sahagin Priest (though perhaps the Ascians gave it to them both?). All of which seem to point to it not coming from either Hyd or Zodiarc, and Midgardsomr doesn't remove it, or even seem to be concerned with it. So, who or what is it from? And if both Hyd and Zodiarc can grant it, then doesn't that mean they have more in common then we might think?

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I think iceheart was given the echo from the mother Crystal. She mentions the hear, feel, think that Hydelan always says

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Originally Posted by melflomil

I think iceheart was given the echo from the mother Crystal. She mentions the hear, feel, think that Hydelan always says

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Debatable. There seem to be two versions of the Echo: the Ascians' version that grants them effective immortality (excepting the White Auracite / Blade of Light combo) and our version, which just lets us view others' memories and grants us immunity to Tempering. It's all but verified the Ascians' version makes them immune to Tempering as well; Ifrit mentions talking to them, and if it's the same "gift" but from Zodiark they're definitely immune. The "Hear, Feel, Think" could be something from Zodiark instead, since if he's Hydaelyn's opposite and equal it's not unthinkable there are similarities between the two.

While Ysayle never shows the immortality the Ascians did (just the Tempering immunity) and seems to mention Hydaelyn... it's not unthinkable she got the Echo from Zodiark instead. I don't think it's likely, with Zodiark supposedly being "dead" and all, but it's a distinct possibility. The reason I have a hard time believing Ysayle got the Echo from Hydaelyn is because, well... she summons Shiva, and Primals are supposedly "toxic" to Hydaelyn, as it were, since their summoning and sustenance eats up and screws with the aether flow. (Then again, Bahamut was out there in space for God knows how long.) I can't fathom why Hydaelyn would give the Echo to someone so easily manipulated by the Ascians into harming her.

Either way, it's also possible the Echo we and the Ascians have is the very same thing, which has some... dark implications. Since it's an overall idealistic story I doubt my doubts are founded, but still.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Debatable.

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I think Iceheart has been a pawn (more on that in a moment), but I do think she was woken by Hydaelyn.

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Originally Posted by Ysayle

We who walk before may lead those who walk after. Seek the Keeper of the Lake. See with eyes unclouded. Do...do not squander Mother's gift.

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That said, in Patch 2.3, Lahabrea and Nabriales blatantly talk about how Eorzea is "fertile ground for divine seeds" and that if they "nurture the gifted" and support their zealotry, they will always give rise to a new god. 2.4 arrives and Ysayle (gifted) leads the heretics (zealots) in the summoning of Shiva (new primal) and Nabriales is standing by watching the whole thing like, "Lahabrea will be pleased," (because Lahabrea is obsessed with merging mortals and deiforms), even though it frustrates him that Lahabrea's success will prevent his ascension to Zodiark's right hand (which spurns him to act as he does in Patch 2.5).

So Ysayle totally seems to have taken the Ascian bait, but she still seems to be Hydaelyn's, imho.

And she seems correct that Ishgard's war is pointless and waged under false pretense (though who's to say the dragons are completely innocent).

I think her echo comes from crystamom. Iceheart seems too 'good' (using that word loosly) to have Zodiark's echo, and she seems to hold Hyda in high regard. She flat out tells us, "don't squander mother's gift."
I have the feeling that either Hyda is telling Iceheart what to do, or she's being controlled by Nidhogg.

Also worth noting that the Sahagin Chief's Echo caused him to glow Ascian black. Ysayle's did no such thing, leading me to believe her Echo is a Hydaelyn Echo.

(Moose-senpai noticed me!)

I don't really think Ysayle got the Echo from the Ascians or Zodiark, just that she's being manipulated by them. It's just a little ambiguous to me since she's doing the exact opposite of what we're trying to do - chiefly, prevent the summoning and sustenance of Primals - which doesn't make a lot of sense, given one of the few times Hydaelyn directly speaks to is when we're taking on the Ultima Weapon and Lahabrea. If Ysayle got the Echo from Hydaelyn, why wouldn't she tell her not to trust the Ascians...? Then again, Hydaelyn's been strangely quiet since the showdown with Lahabrea, or it could be a gambit by Hydaelyn to get us to end the Dragonsong War... considering she allowed Middy to strip us of her blessing, I'm not putting morally ambiguous decisions above her.

There's still the obvious possibility Ysayle just has Hydaelyn's "version" of the Echo and was / is being manipulated by the Ascians, but I have a bad habit of overthinking things.

There is more than one way to get the final result. Iceheart doing her way and we are doing it another way. Both at the end will yield the same results

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Originally Posted by melflomil

There is more than one way to get the final result. Iceheart doing her way and we are doing it another way. Both at the end will yield the same results

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The difference is our path doesn't involve the wanton slaughter and razing of Ishgard. While Ysayle's method of ending the Dragonsong War is certainly an option, I doubt Hydaelyn would support the massacre of Ishgard's sheeple. That's something more along the lines of what the Ascians would do.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

It's just a little ambiguous to me since she's doing the exact opposite of what we're trying to do - chiefly, prevent the summoning and sustenance of Primals - which doesn't make a lot of sense, given one of the few times Hydaelyn directly speaks to is when we're taking on the Ultima Weapon and Lahabrea. If Ysayle got the Echo from Hydaelyn, why wouldn't she tell her not to trust the Ascians...? Then again, Hydaelyn's been strangely quiet since the showdown with Lahabrea, or it could be a gambit by Hydaelyn to get us to end the Dragonsong War...

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We're now out of territory where I can cite things and I'm relying on raw inference, so any and all of this could be wrong.

Hydaelyn never told any of the raw Echo users even that she was the one giving it to them in 1.0; they just woke up from a nap and started stumbling over what was reality and what was a vision. I suspect that she babied us a little because, in addition to the Echo, we were given the Blessing and acted as her Champion. She clearly spoke to Minfilia and Ysayle a few times, however, so I suspect that you're right that Hydaelyn just went silent after the Praetorium and left Ysayle hanging.

I do think the Ascian connection is clear - if not from the 2.3 dialogue and Nabriales looking on, Urianger offhandedly mentions their likely involvement when she, like the others, returns as an extreme. (Does that mean she willingly sacrificed one of her own to turn them into a ritual talisman? Hm...) Without guidance, there's no telling what point of view she could have been fed. Unlike, for example, Ifrit, who would bleed the world dry to become thought of as the one true god, Shiva didn't seem to demand more to consume (and even Ramuh was controlled enough in his consumption that we more or less set him on the back burner until immediate threats were dealt with). With Iceheart in control and Shiva within her, Ysayle could have been convinced that the danger to Hydaelyn was minimal, at the very least worth it to end a pointless war.

The dragons believe that Ishgard's sons bear their father's sins - if they pay for it with their blood and the war ends, "What of it?" those on their side might ask. All I know is that we'll probably know by the end of Heavensward, lol. (Still, it'd be really nice if we got a whole, sorry about that before we end up side by side at Hraesvelgr's place.)

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Originally Posted by Cilia

It's just a little ambiguous to me since she's doing the exact opposite of what we're trying to do - chiefly, prevent the summoning and sustenance of Primals

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This right here is something I find interesting. What if she is trying to stop that from occurring? Think about it, Ishgard is full of devout people, being pushed to the back of the line.. What has this story told us time and time again about worshipers who've been pushed too far? They'll summon a primal. Now, considering how massive Ishgard is, being a city state that it is, and even those who aren't super keen on Ishgard's policy with outsides (Aymeric and the Fortemps house) still seem fairly devout, what if they attempt to summon Halone? And this Halone, considering this isn't just a few Kobolds or Sylphs with a crystal Cache this is a city state with I'm sure a whole lot of crystals, would be their war machine to devastate the Dravanians. Perhaps Ysayle is attempt to stop Ishgard out before that occurs (though she may be manipulated by the Ascians into thinking that's the only way to do things til we bonk her on the head and we go about a massive 3.x story line to end the war without decimating either side).

One thing I've always been curious about and can't find the answer to: Who actually said that summoning Primals is bad for the Mothercrystal?

EDIT: Clarification. The act of summoning is what I'm talking about, and just their existence. Not what they actually do once summoned (ie, tempering, telling their followers to wage war in their name, etc)

Like, I'd love to have Ramuh summoned and as an ally. But we have the notion that their existance is bad. Where is that from?

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Originally Posted by Samcaesar

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That's... actually something I hadn't thought of. Still, if Ishgard were going to summon a Primal incarnation of Halone, I can't think of a reason they wouldn't have already done so aside from desperation. Desperation does seem to be a key factor in it, but even so.

(Wouldn't it be funny if we do end up fighting Ysayle during 3.x and she's more powerful than Shiva though? I know it's just gameplay, but having her be less threatening in her "Super Saiyan" form is still pretty damn hilarious.)

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Originally Posted by PArcher

One thing I've always been curious about and can't find the answer to: Who actually said that summoning Primals is bad for the Mothercrystal?

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To be fair, I don't recall anyone ever directly stating this. We're told by Minfilia and Thancred that the summoning and sustenance of a Primal eats up and distorts the flow of aether, but aside from that and Lahabrea stating he wants to use the Primals to create a "chaotic confluence of aether" to hasten Zodiark's rebirth, little mention of the Primals actually being harmful has been made... their tendency to slaughter or temper mortals aside.

EDIT

You're informed of the effects of Primal summoning and sustenance when you're being debriefed by Minfilia and Thancred post-Ifrit.

Lord of the Inferno, Scene 5.

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Originally Posted by Thancred

Having manifested in the physical realm, primals must consume aether if they are to maintain their presence here. And the stronger they become, the more aether they require.

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It's also stated in that scene that aether flows though everything - it's the spirit of the world, making it Hydaelyn's figurative blood - so summoning and maintaining a Primal in the material plane is almost literally toxic to Hydaelyn.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

It's just a little ambiguous to me since she's doing the exact opposite of what we're trying to do - chiefly, prevent the summoning and sustenance of Primals

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To be fair, it's the Scions's plan to prevent and kill Primals that we're following; I'm not sure Hydaelyn has ever told us to "Go. Hunt. Kill Primals." explicitly or such.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

EDIT

You're informed of the effects of Primal summoning and sustenance when you're being debriefed by Minfilia and Thancred post-Ifrit.

Lord of the Inferno, Scene 5.



It's also stated in that scene that aether flows though everything - it's the spirit of the world, making it Hydaelyn's figurative blood - so summoning and maintaining a Primal in the material plane is almost literally toxic to Hydaelyn.

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Maybe I need to clarify again...

Where is this notion FROM? I didn't play 1.0, so I don't know if this could be found there or not.
Did the Mothercrystal give Minfilia orders that the Primals need to be destroyed, was it Lou that told her? If so, where did he get that info? Was this just from the fact that they essentially wage war on the Spoken races and so need to be destroyed, the fact that they consume aether to sustain themselves a coincidence and reason for the Scions to get involved? Could it have been the Ascians who started this info, and Lou/Minfilia ran with it? Does them consuming aether actually harm the Mothercrystal, or could they perhaps regulate the balance of corrupted/pure aether?

We were never told by the Mothercrystal to kill the Primals...only to gather the Crystals of Light and banish the Darkness. That we gained half the Crystals after defeating Primals seems more a coincidence to me than needing to destroy them to get what we need, especially considering one was gifted to us by Frixio...who was given it himself by Ramuh...

I sometimes wonder if we would do better to get to know the beasttribes and help them, perhaps allying with them and their Primals and work to stop the Ascians together.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Where is this notion FROM?

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Originally Posted by Louisoix Leveilleur

Just now I made mention of Eorzea's future. But first I must speak of the past, for that which is to come was ever the product of that which has been. Ten years ago, an event took place which shook the very foundation of Eorzea: a tribe of beasts summoned forth a primal. So began the spread of summoning till there was not a tribe in this world to whom the practice remained unknown. Alas, they paid no heed to the consequences of its use. You see, in order to remain in our plane of existence, a primal must needs devour prodigious amounts of aether─the energy bound in crystals and at large throughout all creation. Consequently, the land is slowly but surely being drained of its aether, and the day fast approaches when the fount will run dry. Should that happen, what then? Why, all life in Eorzea will end. Even as we speak, the land bleeds, with every passing moment another ilm closer to death. And die it surely will─unless we purge it of its blight. Aye, I speak of the primals. It is to bring about their downfall that I have journeyed to Eorzea.

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Aetherial imbalance invites chaos, primals dramatically imbalance the system. Louisoix wanted to prevent a Calamity, and the chances of Calamity were being radically increased by the presence of primals. It's been drilled into our heads that these beings should not exist in this realm; that the Land has been weaponized against us in such a way that mutual destruction is assured.

There are quite a few quests that involves scholar types talking about how the land gets disrupted(the aether, in particular) from the Primals.

Honestly, I would love if the Primals weren't so harmful. If they could be allies. Ramuh is not that bad, but he tempers the Slyphs and he doesn't even want to.
It's too bad, but they're basically cancers to the realm. Even their presence requires unsustainable amount of crystals and aether.