Poll: Gear progression, horizontal or vertical?

If this were FFXI, horizontal.

This is FFXIV though, and stat options are not as robust. It doesn't even make sense to consider horizontal. There's only so many stat combinations you can make on armor throughout the life of an expansion before you're forced to start copying the same combinations just to please people that can't get over the last FF MMO.

So, vertical.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

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Though I'm not making any elite argument nor am I telling anyone you must be pushing 200%. Do you know why? Because I don't need you to push 200% unless you have fun doing that and that is your thing then have fun with it. I do expect people to give a good run and I do expect people to have fun and put forth their best effort however if due to your choices in gear set up (because these look so UBER!!) you are actually pulling less then what you should be pulling and we can no longer win the fights and now no one else is having fun because of your choice... well not sure what to tell you maybe you need to think about others as well as your self when you are playing an MMO.

Also this is about gear and not skill and in some cases because you don't have the right gear even though your are super L337Z0RZssss skilled you still don't do half what others are doing... Should everyone just go "awww it is ok he was having fun even though we wiped 500 times because well he just couldn't put out enough because of the gear he had and we couldn't make up for that loss."

Also I'm the last one to tell someone how to play their character you can play how you wish but those other guys... yeah they probably wont let you play with them...

Also I have been in the situations before where we should not have won the fight we should have failed and hell everyone else was dead but me and I finished off the boss because well I just knew what the hell I was doing... Sometimes those moments should feel great but then you think... I really should not have had to do that we should have been fine and we should have had no issues but for some unknown reason this guy over here is only doing half of what the others are doing. You check that guy out and his spec is all odd and your not even sure how it even works and his gear is this mess of things you would never even think to put together. What do you do? Just let it go because you won in the end even though you know deep down you really would have lost?

Also because I didn't use also enough... >.>

The cat is bemused =-.-=

How about diagonal? Or better yet... circular.

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Originally Posted by Fortified

How about diagonal? Or better yet... circular.

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How about inverse? level 1 gear is the best in the game and never needs to be replaced. Level 60 gear is total trash. Oh crap I shouldn't give people on these forums any ideas.... sorry :(

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

How about inverse? level 1 gear is the best in the game and never needs to be replaced. Level 60 gear is total trash. Oh crap I shouldn't give people on these forums any ideas.... sorry :(

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Make all the gear glamour items, and you invert that system as well, so they can only glamour over earlier leveled items. BUT, they still have the same iLevel they do now, and you still have an iLevel requirement to enter later dungeons and raids. IT'S BRILLIANT! SE get to work on it right now.....

1: Completely change the item system functionality.
2: Ignore people complaining about the changes.
3: ???
4: PROFIT!

I'm really not sure how it would work best, but I do know I'm kind of worn out (no pun intended) with this continuous item level climb - by the time you'd finish a set, you can throw it all away because, hey, replacement with "more better everything" is here. And the fact that we can have i130 now, which is more than double (closer to triple) of our actual level cap, with the latest "relevant" (ie. story) content having an ilevel requirement of 90 (which was I think the top when the game launched?)..... I'd say it's kinda ridiculous. And all the gear sets in-between that, that they designed and put in dungeons to drop, and nobody using them, and if they do it's mostly just for glamour and taking up inventory space (which is admittedly also troublesome)....... I don't mind this slow-down we have now until Heavensward, to be honest.

Vertical progression, with more horizontal progression options.

Also secondary stats that actually matter.

okbye

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Originally Posted by BreathlessTao

but I do know I'm kind of worn out (no pun intended) with this continuous item level climb - by the time you'd finish a set, you can throw it all away because, hey, replacement with "more better everything" is here.

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That's the inescapable consequence of vertical progression unfortunately

I cast my vote on hybrid. Would be nice if 3.0 alternated patches between horizontal and vertical. And no, CT or CT equivalent is not horizontal gear progression. It's a stepping stone for vertical progression.

Damn, people just can't ignore debate bait can they? I'll tally all the votes up every 24 hours and update the OP with a continual count, but shoot, so many people either starting debates or voting for silly options.

horizontal. Gear in FFXIV is way to over simplified. Gear is very boring imo

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Originally Posted by Daranion

Damn, people just can't ignore debate bait can they?

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Tis the nature of mankind. If anyone notices that someone has a different opinion than them, then they'll jump at the opportunity to explain why the other person is wrong. And no amount of debating back and forth will change either of their minds on the matter.....

Hybrid. A higher item level piece should be the best choice outside of raids and extremes, which means vertical progression for leveling and the easy max level content. Once the player reaches a sufficient item level to start raiding there should be more options and sources for gear and each set should be the best option for some encounter.

Highest obtainable item level should rise a little every or every other patch, but there should be several ways of getting that max level gear and they should have different secondaries and bonuses. For example: piece A with crap secondaries but it contributes to a set bonus that helps with bosses X and Y, piece B with best possible secondaries and piece C with a situational bonus like elemental resistance, an AoE proc, mp gain or a self-heal proc that activates at a certain hp %. That way, depending on the content you're doing, it could be worth getting all the options of the same item level so you can use them in different situations. Casual players could aim for the best looking or the easiest to obtain instead of farming them all.

For horizontal to be a viable thing, you'd need more viable stats.
Each class has a limited number of stats that are worthwhile:
1) Their primary damage dealing/healing stat (STR for melee, DEX for NIN+BRD+MCH, MND for healers, INT for offensive casters)
2) VIT
3) PIE (only viable for healers and SMN, marginally viable for BLM since they need a LITTLE bit...that usually comes from their base stats.
4) DET
5) CRIT
6) Spell Speed/Skill Speed

Games with "horizontal progression" often have more stats than that, or the stats they DO have do more than what XIV's do.
For example: EQ1 has 7 base stats (as opposed to FFXIV's 6) that all play into something for EVERY class.
STR affects all melee damage
DEX affects things like proc rates and crits
AGI affects defensive abilities.
STA is still HP (like VIT)
INT and WIS, in addition to being the go-to casting stats for specific classes, also increase the rate of skill gains (fairly useful til you cap em)
CHA affects merchant prices as well as the success/failure of certain abilities like charm, bard songs, etc.
And this is before getting into stats like "Mana regen" or "DoT shielding" or "Haste" that that game also has.
Unless that happens, you're just mixing and matching to get the best stat array possible. And there's not much room for argument due to the low number of stat dependencies.
The only way horizontal progression has any value is if armor sets are shared like they are between multiple classes.
There's also the risk with horizontal progression creating useless items, something that already exists for some classes (SMN, SCH, and BRD get the shaft when it comes to certain i130 pieces.)
Add to that, vertical progression MUST happen. It is inevitable.

Horizontal progression has two big problems for me:

- gear overbloat, where you are forced to carry around several pieces of gear for every slot because each is situationally better at something, which is an inventory management nightmare for anyone that likes to play more than one job.
- and far more serious, horizontal progression ultimately means that gear upgrades will come at a far slower pace, which usually means crap drop rates and severe lockouts

Vertical progression mainly has the problem that your gear lasts roughly 6 months.

Between the two systems, I'd rather have a vertical gear progression.

Why is it always horizontal or vertical?
Is the concept of diagonal too strange?

Example:
with every update the max. ilevel increse by 10 (vertical) + 5 complete sets with the same ilevel but different stats every update (horizontal) = diagonal

u cant change gear once combat starts , so options are meaningless , u have a BiS or 2 items that are good for single or aoe , or this boss ect

How its now, vertical with 2-3 gear option is "ok" , i would love to have more options , and a way to customize the gear somehow but i understand that is hard to implement something like that .

Vertical, because this is a MMO and balance > everything. The community giving others crap for not having something that gives +2 crit is old. Vertical where everyone comes out the same, or horizontal where everyone demands that you be the same? same end result without the harassment.

Keep in mind, Options are not options when there is a right and wrong answer. Just like its an option to put 30 points of INT on my war. The community will collectively decide what is best and everyone will be expected to use it.

I'm sorry to break the OP rules, but i can't just stay quiet looking how the same people keeps criticizing the horizontal system with reused arguments, as a FFXI player i have never been discriminated for not having certain piece of gear, and once i became the sub-leader of an endgame LS i never asked anyone to have certain piece and have always welcomed everyone into bosses, raids etc... and i can say the same thing about other MMOs, except for wow which i have not played for long. This discrimination caused by horizontal progression is a myth, i have only seen it once in FFXI and it was caused by bad design choices on SE's part, who decided to place procs on bosses to weaken them or enhance the drop rate, and the only way to proc those effects was by wearing a relic, a mythic or an enphyrean weapon.

The only discrimination you'll see in this game with one system or another will be the 1 mistake=kick on party finder.

If you hate the system vote against it, but stop trying to make it invalid, you are just confusing people with lies.

Also note i prefer a hybrid mode.

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Originally Posted by Renik

If you hate the system vote against it, but stop trying to make it invalid, you are just confusing people with lies.

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"Online experiences may vary". Im not sure when you played XI but for my 7 years worth from NA launch I saw this A LOT. Class stacking and gear discrimination was rampant at some points. So Ill pretend like you arent calling me a liar and agree to disagree. I certainly could not join a group wanting to be a dps ninja and I doubt you accepted many into your end game groups. (FYI nin was not originally designed to be a tank)

The only way to make horizontal progression worth having in the game is to give us reasons to use that gear. Like places we need elemental resist gear, or higher def because this boss has insane accuracy etc etc. So if the game had those situations, you literally have to be selective about what gear your members have because if they dont have the right gear they will hinder the group. In the same sense you wouldnt let me fill in for your main tank as an INT spec war with dex accessories. (false options)

Horizontal. Then gear actually means something and can expand in more interesting ways than just "oh look my ilvl is 32113, that's 10 points more than my last item!".

I would like there to be more options for gear to choose from... And that the stats would be more interesting.

That being said, full on horizontal progression have some big problems too...

If it's truly horizontal, people would ultimately start to question: "What's the point of this? I don't get anything out of this".... It's one thing having lots of different options for you to get, but having the same level of gear throughout the game, would kill it in the long run IMO.

How would endgame raids work?(honest question) If everyone is wearing the same level of gear, then what happens to the raids when they come out in a patch? Is it going to be too easy for hardcore players, too hard for normal players, or would they have echo in much earlier and in more increments? Right now, hardcore players beat it with mostly gear from previous patch, and maybe with crafted gear if available... Then more and more groups are able to beat it as they gear up with gear from the "easier" turns and from Tomestones. Could work with echo, but god that sounds sad...

Horizontal sounds kinda good on paper, but trust me, it would make FFXIV history...

EDIT: Also, one thing I don't understand with horizontal progression... How would they even keep making new and interesting gear that people would even want? Maybe I'm missing something, but if everything have the same level, and only different stats and whatnot, why would you even want to change your gear once you get a combination that is better than everything else? And trust me, there would be gear like that.

I would prefer a horizontal gear development.

There's no use arguing whether it exists or not because game developers acknowledge that it does. Other games do it and it's definitely possible.

I just hate doing the same grind every two months just for a slightly bigger number. I'd much rather have multiple types of content being released every two months with different gear that suits them. Then have your best in slot gear but have them take mastering all forms of content and a time consuming path to get to similar to the relic quests.

Horizontal/hybrid

Horizontal/hybrid as well. ^^

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Originally Posted by Peachy

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Yet you played for 7 years (i did for 8-9 stopped after abyssea), i guess it wasn't that bad, oh and i had a DPS nin in my low man limbus group, she was not that well geared, but very skilled, and a 60-70 yo whm, she was slow and had hard times paying attention to everything, but was good following strategies . The horizontal progression is the only that makes skill be meaningful, with vertical it's all about bigger numbers.

Just so you know, you'll be discriminated if you group up with very elitist players, but in this game only a small % of people cares about coil, and even less gets to complete it, elitist are a few here, they are just loud.

Horizontal all the way.

Guild Wars 2 has the 'horizontal' system you want.
Ascended is the best. Period. Not even an expansion will bring anything that's better than Ascended.
Berserkers Ascended is the only good Ascended, or any gear, period though. Because Maths.

Sure, i could build my Ranger as a Power/DoT damage/Toughness setup and clear content with my friends with it.
If i want to do a Fractal with people i DONT know, not a chance. Berserker + Greatsword or GTFO.

Why is that? Because the maths says the damage done by Berserker sets blows every other combo out of the water.
More DPS is all anyone cares about. Bigger numbers = better numbers =faster runs = more loot.

I'm not against the diagonal progression some have mentioned, technically we have it already. Dungeon sets have different stat combos than Tower/Tome sets and Coil sets.
All we need now is some form of drop that we can use to boost the Dungeon ilvl to match the current tier, Much like we do with Carbontwines and Carboncoats. Then we'd have some real diversity in stats, a choice or a sacrifice.
Same DPS, Different delivery.
Let players make the choice if they want a Skill/Spell Speed+Crit build, or a DET focused build.
Hell, add in stats that affect TP Regen speeds, MP regen ticks or stats that are purely proc based. For example, a stat that gave a small percentage to MultiHit with a skill or Auto Attack.

But don't take away the ilvl gains per patch. We *need* new things to strive for and improve ourselves with.
Do you really think people would do Savage Alexander if the ilvl for the drops was the same as Story Mode?
Savage Coil is barely cleared, not because players cant but because the gear is/was the same and people didn't want to do harder content without the reward of higher tiers of gear.
I don't understand why people feel like their time is wasted by new tiers of gear.
The old gear served its purpose and is now vanity. There's a new set to try and get, which will eventually become vanity.

Those of us who farmed full sets of i90 Artifact gear don't have to deal with the RNG of getting the Antique Tokens.
Because we farmed Darklight when it was top tier, we don't have to deal with the RNG to pick up the set for vanity now, as newer players would need to.
And so forth.

I think it would be better with horizontal gear. Cause right now everyone just gets the highest tomestone gear or coil gear and thats it. Theres no point in stats at all in this game. And tbh theres no point in gearing up either because the gear you got a month a go is trash when new gear comes anyway.
I think the gear treadmill is getting boring and I wonder how long it takes until majority of the playerbase feels the same way.

GW2 has no "Horizontal System" Berserker gear is the best gear due to the kind of content it is. Horizontal System doesn't work without roles. So - no, its not a game we want.

Horizontal System shouldn't be balanced, it should be around the kind of playstyle you want. However this is a PvE game - Does Bahamut suddenly go on the forums and care about who has a bigger advantage in stats or crunched a bit better? Lol.

Anyways.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-some-ideas%21

This is a perfect example of fun Horizontal Progression gear.

After 5 years (04-09) of FFXI and playing this since 1.0 and 2.0 alpha I can happily say I prefer the current Vertical system that FFXIV operates on, although I would prefer more options at the highest item level. I found FFXI's horizontal system and gear swapping a mess to my inventory. Plus the vertical progression has kept me far more interested in the game over FFXI's wait for Fafnir/Nidhogg every day for several years on the hope for an E.Abj body.

Hybrid /10char.

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Originally Posted by Renik

The horizontal progression is the only that makes skill be meaningful, with vertical it's all about bigger numbers.

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The first part is a fallacy, the second applied/s to FFXI as much as vertical progression. A melee having capped haste and double/triple attack for the TP set and AP, relevant stat and WS accuracy/damage boost way outperformed someone who was in the same "level" of gear with suboptimal stats and bonuses on the gear. Just as a healer out performed when stacking the correct bonuses for each gear swap on macros for each ability, A +cure potency capped WHM for curing was able to use lower level cures thus reducing mana consumption massively, an enfeeble stacked RDM was more effective than one that was geared like a melee job.

Your idea of horizontel not having anything to do with the numerical output of the jobs and it being based on "skill" is a complete fabrication.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

GW2 has no "Horizontal System" Berserker gear is the best gear due to the kind of content it is. Horizontal System doesn't work without roles. So - no, its not a game we want.

Horizontal System shouldn't be balanced, it should be around the kind of playstyle you want. However this is a PvE game - Does Bahamut suddenly go on the forums and care about who has a bigger advantage in stats or crunched a bit better? Lol.

Anyways.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-some-ideas%21

This is a perfect example of fun Horizontal Progression gear.

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I don't get what you mean... Are you saying that because Bahamut doesn't care about balancing, nobody would complain? We already see many complains about balancing, even though FFXIV is one of the most balanced MMOs out there.

Most people (at least the ones doing endgame raids) wouldn't play a certain job if they aren't producing the amount of DPS, for example, that it should do.

Like I said in my previous post, you would just find a set of gear that is good, then there would be no reason to get new gear in the game ever... Unless they completely change the game to fit with this style of gear. Can imagine myself being bored to death after a year, still wearing pretty much the same gear as when I started, and raiding only giving me some glamour...

Horizontal Please.

Gearing in this game is dreadfully dull and sets everyone into a singular path when the game should be branching out giving many people many goals instead of just the allmighty highest Ilvl set. There will always be min/maxers you can't escape that even currently, but more variaty is always nice but wether the current game structure could support that I'm unsure.

They can hardly make the jobs unique unto themselves let alone the gear.

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Originally Posted by Craiger

I don't get what you mean... Are you saying that because Bahamut doesn't care about balancing, nobody would complain? We already see many complains about balancing, even though FFXIV is one of the most balanced MMOs out there.

Most people (at least the ones doing endgame raids) wouldn't play a certain job if they aren't producing the amount of DPS, for example, that it should do.

Like I said in my previous post, you would just find a set of gear that is good, then there would be no reason to get new gear in the game ever... Unless they completely change the game to fit with this style of gear. Can imagine myself being bored to death after a year, still wearing pretty much the same gear as when I started, and raiding only giving me some glamour...

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Making gear with effects everyone can acquire fixes that. There will not be "one best set" it will be trade-offs and play-styles.

If you have that-of an easy choice in picking gear then its already failed.

I don't see any balance concerns with the game, people can argue for hours for example about War/PLD but both jobs are good, both jobs can beat the game. The only job right now that isn't balanced, is for example SMN. It needs a boost. Its getting a boost.

Left side vertical while right would be horizontal with materia slots. To get extra guaranteed materia slots we would have to do some difficult content.

For me, I feel like the people who want vertical progression are materialistic and the people who want horizontal progression are hoarders.

I probably just insulted everyone saying that, but I don't really like either.
I like stuff like the Relic where you get one piece. It can be upgraded and customized.
I don't think that system has to have as much RNG grind as the relic does, and it could be tied into drops from raids to enhance.

I don't want a bunch of crap in my bags for situation gearing and limited sense of progression.
I don't want gear to be completely disposable every patch cycle either.

I guess I'll favor the 'standard' vertical progression as it is.
I think we could use some more interesting stats though.

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Originally Posted by melflomil

Left side vertical while right would be horizontal with materia slots. To get extra guaranteed materia slots we would have to do some difficult content.

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Except thats Vertical + Vertical.
You do the harder content to gain ilvls for your left side .. Then you do harder content for the Materia to raise the stats on your right side. You just accomplished exactly the same thing as straight vertical but added even MORE RNG to it.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Making gear with effects everyone can acquire fixes that. There will not be "one best set" it will be trade-offs and play-styles.

If you have that-of an easy choice in picking gear then its already failed.

I don't see any balance concerns with the game, people can argue for hours for example about War/PLD but both jobs are good, both jobs can beat the game. The only job right now that isn't balanced, is for example SMN. It needs a boost. Its getting a boost.

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No, It makes everything worse.
Since now you have to have a specific set for specific encounters because certain bonuses make those encounters easier.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Horizontal Please.

Gearing in this game is dreadfully dull and sets everyone into a singular path when the game should be branching out giving many people many goals instead of just the allmighty highest Ilvl set. There will always be min/maxers you can't escape that even currently, but more variaty is always nice but wether the current game structure could support that I'm unsure.

They can hardly make the jobs unique unto themselves let alone the gear.

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Gearing in this game does exactly what its supposed to, give us the stats we require to defeat bosses in steadily harder content.
An ilvl 100 BLM doing a proper Fire rotation will do way more DPS than an ilvl 130 BLM spamming Fire III/Blizzard III.

The current system gives you the means (Stats/ilvl) to defeat the bosses, but its your own knowledge of the Job you're playing along with reacting to the encounter itself that clears content.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Making gear with effects everyone can acquire fixes that. There will not be "one best set" it will be trade-offs and play-styles.

If you have that-of an easy choice in picking gear then its already failed.

I don't see any balance concerns with the game, people can argue for hours for example about War/PLD but both jobs are good, both jobs can beat the game. The only job right now that isn't balanced, is SMN. It needs a boost.

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Balancing is good right now(except SMN), but you said you didn't want it to be balanced...

Even if there are no one best set, you would still be able to get a set that you can beat the whole game with for years to come...

You say it would work because of trade-offs, but if I put together a good combination that I think is balanced for my play style, then there would be no need for me to do any more content in the game. If there were better options for me to get later down the line of the game, then it would go against the whole definition of "Horizontal Progression". (and don't come with the argument of doing all content because it's fun, because that only lasts a month at most)

It's not a fair comparison either, because the current model would be better if there were special effects like that on gear too... Ideally you would want more armor, but you would want that in a horizontal model too.

Current stats might not be the most interesting, but would people really care about those different effects? Most people I see don't care about optimizing their gear, so why would people do it with a horizontal model? For there to be effects interesting enough for people to care, they would have to completely overhaul the whole game pretty much.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

For me, I feel like the people who want vertical progression are materialistic and the people who want horizontal progression are hoarders.

I probably just insulted everyone saying that, but I don't really like either.
I like stuff like the Relic where you get one piece. It can be upgraded and customized.
I don't think that system has to have as much RNG grind as the relic does, and it could be tied into drops from raids to enhance.

I don't want a bunch of crap in my bags for situation gearing and limited sense of progression.
I don't want gear to be completely disposable every patch cycle either.

I guess I'll favor the 'standard' vertical progression as it is.
I think we could use some more interesting stats though.

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This^