Ultima Weapon simply consumed the primal that was summoned. We weren't expressly told that the Ixal, Amal'jaa and Kobolds were unable to summon again during that time. If that were the case then we would not have been able to summon the egis prior to Ultima Weapon's destruction either as they draw on the very same aether the primals are constructed from.Quote:
Originally Posted by lololink
The seal in Silvertear Lake was something else entirely as it prevented summoning as a whole, including primals like King Moggle Mog who had never been summoned before. One of the persistent theories is that the seal simply sealed off enough ambient aether that there was not enough to actually summon anything. The original 1.0 cinematic showed the primals escaping the lake, yes, but a lot of 1.0 content was retconned and the introduction of primals like Moggle Mog and Shiva threw a wrench in the works there as neither of them had ever been summoned prior to our encounters with them so they were not sealed in that lake. The whole 'myth made manifest' thing makes it incredibly unlikely Silvertear Lake actually held the primals themselves but rather just a catalyst needed to create and summon them.
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06-01-2015, 01:46 AMAlberel
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06-01-2015, 02:06 AMlololink
The primals weren't all prevented from being summoned, the empire saw a primal being summoned in Othard before invading Eorzea.
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06-01-2015, 04:32 AMKaiser-AceNot losing hope. I always look forward to hole poking because it tells me where to rework my theory. So any time it gets shot down that just puts us all that much closer to finding the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by WyrahFhurrst
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06-01-2015, 07:23 AMWyrahFhurrstI agree on the Allagan technology parts. That was the idea behind Dalamud, so that the trapped Bahamut couldn't be summoned again (because he was already manifest and trapped), so I can only presume that, that is proof of a Primal's ability to only be manifested in one location at any given time. As for the continuous mention of a "seal" on Lake Silvertear, I don't actually know where that's coming from. As far as I know the lake is spoken of as the font of aether for Eorzea and the explosion we see is a large amount of aether washing over the realm.Quote:
Originally Posted by lololink
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06-01-2015, 10:11 AMKaiser-AceMiddy guarded the seal over that aether fount. How ever I'm not sure that was actually sealing the primals or was stableizing the aether in Eorzea.Quote:
Originally Posted by WyrahFhurrst
Other than a slight reference to the seal being destroyed in the battle of Silver Tear Skies there was no mention of it even in 1.0 about its origen or purpose.
Not that I recall anyway. -
06-01-2015, 02:49 PMWyrahFhurrst
So is there any actual talk of there being a seal, or is this the case of someone said there was and everyone ran with it? Because I've only ever seen people talk like there was one, and everyone be like "Mhmm, yes. The seal. Indeed."
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06-01-2015, 02:58 PMlololink
I think you could go beneath the lake were the seal was in 1.0, there is also the 1.0 cinematic where you see agrius falls and all the primals going out in the burst of Aether.
Also even if there was no seal at all there is still Dalamud and Ultima, they trapped primals and prevented them from coming back. -
06-01-2015, 03:06 PMWyrahFhurrstWhat I'm saying is that if there wasn't a seal, then the whole cinematic was a representation of the massive release of aether into the world and the birth of many primals. The ambient aether in Eorzea before the explosion wasn't nearly enough for the Primals of the world to exist as easily as they do today. Secondly, those Primals that come flying out of the explosion couldn't have been sealed away, because, as we know, they are not Elder Primals and Elder Primals have to exist for 3 or more Astral Eras, since elder-ness is a measure of age, and not power.Quote:
Originally Posted by lololink
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06-01-2015, 03:37 PMlololink
First as I said before, there was a primal summoned a few year before the fall of the Agrius, in Othard, that event didn't make primals summonable, you could summon them before, at least some of them.
Second, Elder Primals are Primals that have been summoned since multiple Astral Eras without being vainquished. That's why it only counts Bahamut and Odin that have been summoned during the allagan empire Era.
Ramuh was here in the Era of the gods as he says himself and yet he is not an elder primal because he was last summoned only recently. Elder primals are also much stronger because they are here for so long they could suck as much aether as they wanted from the land. -
06-01-2015, 04:05 PMAnonymooseWe've since gotten confirmation that the underlined part isn't actually very important. The primary distinction between Primal and Elder Primal is the sheer number of years that have passed since mass-worship began (even if its since evaporated).Quote:
Originally Posted by lololink
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamer Escape Interview with Koji Fox (Fan Fest Vegas)
For instance, Belias was forgotten pretty much entirely since twilight of the Third Astral Era (as far as we know) and memory of him was re-awoken from a summoner job crystal and passed to Tristan by an Ascian - and there Belias was called Elder. There are, of course, hints that the Ascian manipulated Tristan quite a bit and never told him the whole story. The power of Darkness takes root in him throughout the storyline until he's basically just using Dark Aether Ifrit-Egi (assuming that's not what Belias is in the first place, of course) and Dark Aether Starstorm.
Kinda makes me wonder - if we didn't (presumably) put Tristain down, would he have opened himself up to the Darkness more and more, drunk on its power, until he simply died? Or could he have ended up a black-mask one day? But I digress. -
06-01-2015, 04:13 PMWyrahFhurrst
I suspect Ramuh may have memories that aren't his own. The memories he has may simply come from the aetherstream, like inherited memories from the element he represents. I hope we get an explanation on that eventually, because he's not an Elder Primal, but has those memories. Very odd guy, that Ramuh.
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06-01-2015, 04:18 PMAnonymooseI was midway through posting the last thing I said in here when this popped up and I just wanted to poke back in already and say "I'm glad I'm not so crazy as to be the only one." I believe that Ramuh may (might, possibly, potentially, hypothetically) have memories that were imbued into him.Quote:
Originally Posted by WyrahFhurrst
All of the primals have personalities that philosophically represent their element. What is lightning? Patient... calm... silent... and then strikes without warning with merciless dexterity to swiftly annihilate that which is judged to be its target. Lighting is calculating. Lightning is wise. There's a possibility that Ramuh knows many things by nature of the living aether that he was not personally there to witness.
Or, perhaps he was once a living person and read a lot of books about the past and now the soul orb thing we saw in the Striking Tree remembers college pretty well, hells if I know. But he's no Elder, as far as we've been told. That's for sure. -
06-01-2015, 04:25 PMWyrahFhurrstOh good, I'm not the only one. The only guess I have as to why the other Primals don't mention their older memories is that they don't have them, or they just don't find them important to bring up around us. Both are entirely logical, at least for the elemental Primals. But what about the non-elemental Primals? Does Good King Moggle Mog have older memories, or only the recent ones? And does that lack of elemental memory explain why he's different from the elemental ones? I of course mean his lack of trying to temper us or gather a following beyond his loyal Mog Squad. Perhaps, as a new Primal, he has yet to fully come into his own and discover all of his powers, since he has no element (and older {rimals of that element) to inherit memories from?Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
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06-01-2015, 04:39 PMlololink
That story about elder primals is really weird, if what matters is how long they have been worshipped how come we can consider Odin an elder primal while we don't even know who worshipped him and for how long ?
The only way I could consider Ramuh not being an elder primal would be that while he was here in the first eras he might not have been summon since very recently ( Same way for Mog ). And still we clearly see Titan and Ifrit coming out of the burst of aether and it's only after that the ascians tells them how to summon primals. Unless ascians planned this all along but they don't seem to be the kind of guy to make long plans, they wait for opportunities to weaken Hydaelyn and jump on it whenever it happens, just the same way Nabriales thought he saw an opening and failed.
All primals weren't prevented from being summoned by the seal since one was summoned in Othard, so what was it exactly, that primal matter really need answers... I hope the library of Sharlaya will give us some.
About the elemental behavior I'm not sure, I usually depict lightning as fast and can't stand still, the complete opposite of Ramuh in a way. -
06-01-2015, 04:42 PMKaiser-Ace
Well as far as Ifrit and Titan goes, Ifrit was pissed he couldn't temper us and immediately resorted to killing us, Titan Just plain wanted to kill us, and as for Garuda, well she's just bat shit crazy and tries to kill every thing.
Then there's Levi who was..... Trying to kill us. And shiva who........ was trying to kill us.
Seems like Rahmu was the only primal that actually took any time to talk to us at all. Weird Huh? -
06-01-2015, 04:47 PMWyrahFhurrstWe may not know who did the worshipping (if there was any worshipping, Odin's a weird Primal overall), but we do know he, like Bahamut, had his origins in or before the Third Astral Era, as he was sealed in the crystal at Urth's Font by the Allagan hero, Urth (no more info on who that is besides that).Quote:
Originally Posted by lololink
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06-01-2015, 04:48 PMlololinkThat's mainly because he knows we aren't the ennemy, Ixals are in direct war with Gridania, same with Leviathan and Titan for Limsa and Ifrit for Ul'dah, Sylphs have troubles with the empire, of course most of them don't like gridanian too, but their main threat are the garleans, Ramuh knows that, but he doesn't know if mankind as a whole can be worthy of living or not, that's why he challenged us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace
Yes but during 3 astral eras we don't know if he was worshipped, Meracydian was forced to worship Bahamut but that wasn't Odin's case.Quote:
Originally Posted by WyrahFhurrst
edit for below :
Of course ascians have a long term plan, but they don't know everything, Lahabrea was surprised and rejoiced that Bahamut was freed again, they didn't plan all that would happens eras before. A long plan isn't a long term goal. -
06-01-2015, 04:51 PMKaiser-AceUh, the Ascians have been at this since the Third Astral Era and maybe even earlier. One does not simply mess around for 15k+ years and not have a long term goal in mind. The Ascians plan is thousands of years in the making which is what makes it so hard to grasp and escape. As Eldibeus said, if we knew what he did perhaps we'd be able to see eye to eye.Quote:
Originally Posted by lololink
Oh and Nebriales failed because he went off script. Ya know, went rouge, awol, etc, etc. He wasn't following the plan that's been laid out so well and worked on for so long that none can escape it's momentum. So he payed the price for being a maverick. To which Lahabrea was neither surprised nor upset about and Eldibeus was only mildly concerned that we were able to kill the unkillable. But even then it seemed trivial to him and more of a curiosity than a threat or worry. -
06-11-2015, 06:05 AMaxemtitaniumJust wanted to clarify, the Ultima Weapon does NOT prevent primals from being summoned again after eating it. Alphinaud explicitly states that the reason the beast tribes don't summon primals while the Ultima Weapon is still operational is because they're AFRAID that the primals they summon would just get eaten immediately (i.e. a waste of crystals).Quote:
Originally Posted by lololink
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06-12-2015, 04:50 AMBfmusashi
I don't recall the time period for the Summoners original existence, but it was likely while the ability to summon the primals was sealed at Silvertear Falls. I think this is the only seal you can put on them, that they can't be properly summoned, but their calmer, smaller representatives can. So, having the big manifestation trapped and locked in the Ultima Weapon/Silvertear Falls doesn't seem to keep the less willful versions from manifesting.
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06-12-2015, 05:01 AMWyrahFhurrstSummoners were created by the Allagans, so the Third Astral Era. And I'm not sure there ever was a "seal" on the Falls, just that when the Agrius exploded it released a great amount of aether into the world. Without enough aether to summon a primal, no Egi would have been summoned, because one must defeat a primal in the first place in order to summon an Egi.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bfmusashi
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06-12-2015, 09:13 AMAnonymooseThe millenia in the making Ascian agenda doesn't seem very specific (so far). Chaos - Rejoining - Zodiark. That's not a plan, that's a goal. It's more like guidelines, really. Their manipulation is intricate, don't get me wrong, but they tend to just show up and exploit pre-existing tension until discord erupts into chaos. The closest thing to forethought we've seen is Lahabrea hiding the Heart of Sabik in the Ultima Weapon, and we now know that Lahabrea cannot be 100% trusted to be on Team Ascian Council in the first place. Not only is he working closely with Elidibus (who claims not to technically be our enemy and, unlike the others, just wants this planet back on the "right track," the same sentiment expressed by Lahabrea in the Praetorium), but he's so obsessed with primals and merging their power with man that even Elidibus thinks its overshadowing his loyalty to Zodiark.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace
I'm very suspicious of this whole "put the world back on the right path" thing, too. Only the two suspected Ascian rogues (Lahabrea / Elidibus) have made that claim. Nabriales only spoke of wanting to return everything to perfect Darkness, and that doesn't sound like what Elidibus and Lahabrea had in mind (unless, of course, we're just being manipulated again. Because ... Ascians.) I suspect plans within plans, schemes within schemes. You ever notice that every time an Ascian says anything other than, "Hey, Lahabrea's right!" he steps in and redirects the conversation towards what is obviously the best course of action?